UVB and D3 Suppliments

[LilBobbyD]

Hello!

I'm going getting a leopard gecko soon and was planning on using a small UVB bulb and am wondering if this means I should not supplement D3 or just do it less often than is normally recommended.

His enclosure is 23x11x12 and the light is a Arcadia 2.4 UVB 8 watt seen here: Arcadia 8 watt MINI UV light Kit with USA / Canada (110v) adapter. - lightyourreptiles.com

I know the enclosure is a little smaller than ideal. The gecko is only 4 months I plan on getting at least a 30 inch but possible a 36 inch in the future. I have plans to switch to a larger vivarium setup if things go well in a more sterile environment.

What kind of supplement plan would you folks recommend?

 

[LilBobbyD]

Where did my words go?

My post disappeared...? Sorry not sure what happened. Did it go into moderation because I included a link to the light?

Anyway, I asked how often/how much D3 people think I should be supplementing if I am using the Arcadia 2.4% UVB 8-watt 12 inch T5 bulb in a 23x12x10 inch enclosure. I'll be gutloading crickets and mealworms with chicken feed and left over raw veggies.

Yes I know the tank is small. I'll be upgrading to a 32 or 36 by the time the little dude is full grown. Currently ~4 months.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

My post disappeared...? Sorry not sure what happened. Did it go into moderation because I included a link to the light?

Anyway, I asked how often/how much D3 people think I should be supplementing if I am using the Arcadia 2.4% UVB 8-watt 12 inch T5 bulb in a 23x12x10 inch enclosure. I'll be gutloading crickets and mealworms with chicken feed and left over raw veggies.

Yes I know the tank is small. I'll be upgrading to a 32 or 36 by the time the little dude is full grown. Currently ~4 months.

I don't know what happened to your initial post.

Welcome aboard!

I think a 10 gallon enclosure (about what you describe) is too small to use UVB for a leo. It's kinda tricky deciding whether a leo is getting enough UVB in that situation. Until you get at least a 36 inch long enclosure, I'd use a powdered D3 supplement and multivitamins. Would you like a recommendation?

• Click: Gecko Multivitamins

What brand chicken feed do you have? Some poultry feeds contain diatomaceous earth. In that case, DO NOT USE.

• Click: Cricket Guidelines II -- August 2017 update

 

[LilBobbyD]

And now my first post is back. Weird.

Thanks Elizabeth! I found a place not too far that sells the Albers' you recommend so I am good there.

Are you saying avoid the light entirely for now or just also still give D3? Before I decided to get the UVB light I was planning to get the Zoo Med combo for dusting. Calcium with D3 and reptivite without. Once each per week right? Or should it be more often because the leo is still under a year?

I'm not sure I follow on why its less likely he would use the light in a smaller tank. Would you mind expanding on that? I would, of course, want to angle the hides so he has the option to completely avoid it when he wants but I don't see why it would stop him from enjoying it.

Would you mind also looking at the layout in the attached pictures? Too crowded? The hotspot is under the larger hide on the left. Gets up to 92 then the thermostat shuts it off but there is a couple degree gradient in that hide. The rest of the left tile is between 90 and 88 ish and the next tile is around 85 to room temp(~72-77ish range). The little carpet area on the right is obviously room temp or just a little over. I assume they are not bothered by having the temp probe in the hot hide? I blocked the right with the plants just to wall that side off and make his cool hide a little more private. The back left plant just hides the wires for the thermometer and thermostat. I got him a little hammock too just to increase the surface area but it was missing a suction cup so I'm waiting on that.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

And now my first post is back. Weird.

Thanks Elizabeth! I found a place not too far that sells the Albers' you recommend so I am good there.

You are welcome! In the past I used Albers' for my crickets and dubia all the time. Now I use finely ground Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food. I use ~1 inch of Albers' + a small amount of alfalfa meal as a bedding for my mealworm culture in a 6 quart tub.

Are you saying avoid the light entirely for now or just also still give D3? Before I decided to get the UVB light I was planning to get the Zoo Med combo for dusting. Calcium with D3 and reptivite without. Once each per week right? Or should it be more often because the leo is still under a year?

Correct, avoid a UVB light entirely right now. I do use UVB for my day geckos. In that case, the UVB does it all. For those geckos I don't use a powdered D3 supplement at all, just a powdered multivitamin: Reptivite without D3.

The Reptile Supply Company near Sacramento, California carries Reptivite without D3, other supplements, and supplies.

I'll post a schedule below for leos 12 mo and younger.

I'm not sure I follow on why its less likely he would use the light in a smaller tank. Would you mind expanding on that? I would, of course, want to angle the hides so he has the option to completely avoid it when he wants but I don't see why it would stop him from enjoying it.

I understand that you'd angle the hides so that your leo could completely avoid the rays when he wants. In significantly longer enclosures (3-4 feet long) UVB is just a "safer" bet. It is easy (and safe) to supplement your leo with all the D3 he needs (and not too much) via certain powdered supplements.

Would you mind also looking at the layout in the attached pictures? Too crowded? The hotspot is under the larger hide on the left. Gets up to 92 then the thermostat shuts it off but there is a couple degree gradient in that hide. The rest of the left tile is between 90 and 88 ish and the next tile is around 85 to room temp(~72-77ish range). The little carpet area on the right is obviously room temp or just a little over. I assume they are not bothered by having the temp probe in the hot hide? I blocked the right with the plants just to wall that side off and make his cool hide a little more private. The back left plant just hides the wires for the thermometer and thermostat. I got him a little hammock too just to increase the surface area but it was missing a suction cup so I'm waiting on that.

Your layout looks fine! Lots of hides! Excellent thermal gradient! I set my thermostat to 91 F. I tape the thermostat's probe to my digital thermometer's probe and leave both probes right on the tile under my leo's warm dry hide. She doesn't seem to mind.

Just curious: What are the dimensions of your heat mat?

View attachment 43214View attachment 43213View attachment 43212

Your enclosure looks GOOD!

• Have you got something like sphagnum moss, Eco Earth's coco fiber, or paper towels inside the warm moist hide?
• Are those Exo Terra twisty vines on the left? If so, twist them together like crossed fingers, so your leo has more surface to climb on.

Replies in blue above.

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Weekly Schedule for Leopard Geckos 12 months old & under​

Crickets or dubia >> Monday - lightly dusted with Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3
Mealworms >> Tuesday
Crickets or dubia >> Wednesday - lightly dusted with precipitated calcium carbonate without D3
Crickets or dubia >> Thursday
Crickets or dubia >> Friday - lightly dusted with Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins without D3
Mealworms >> Saturday
No food or free choice >> Sunday

Future weeks:
Continue on since all weeks are identical. . . . . .

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

Click August 2017 update: Weekly Feeding Schedule + Zoo Med's Supplements for leopard geckos 12 months old & under

 

[LilBobbyD]

Thanks again! When I do get the longer enclosure and add the light should I still do the D3 twice or once a month just to be safe or do I risk an overdose doing that?

The heat mat is hard to get to right now. It's one of the stick on UTH style. Looks like 7x10 inches.

I have sphagnum moss for the moist hide.

It is the fluker's bendy branch, I twisted it up like you said.

Thanks again, I feel a lot more confident about bringing the little guy home now. Going later today! I'll add some pictures once he isn't feeling shy.

 

[LilBobbyD]

I don't know what happened to your initial post.
I'd use a powdered D3 supplement and multivitamins. Would you like a recommendation?

• Click: Gecko Multivitamins

The pet store didn't carry Zoo Med Reptivite. They did have Repashy Supervite. I didn't see that in your list but the guaranteed analysis looks comparable. Am I missing something or is that an OK substitute?

Edit: Looks like no. I ordered Reptivite. Hopefully they'll take this other stuff back for store credit at least.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thanks again! When I do get the longer enclosure and add the light should I still do the D3 twice or once a month just to be safe or do I risk an overdose doing that?

The heat mat is hard to get to right now. It's one of the stick on UTH style. Looks like 7x10 inches.

I have sphagnum moss for the moist hide.

It is the fluker's bendy branch, I twisted it up like you said.

Thanks again, I feel a lot more confident about bringing the little guy home now. Going later today! I'll add some pictures once he isn't feeling shy.

Nope. The UVB light should suffice. In that case adding powdered D3 risks an overdose.

[MENTION=55860]Zux[/MENTION] has experience using UVB for his leos.

I look forward to meeting your leo.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

The pet store didn't carry Zoo Med Reptivite. They did have Repashy Supervite. I didn't see that in your list but the guaranteed analysis looks comparable. Am I missing something or is that an OK substitute?

For only $20.70 (including shipping) you can order these 3 products from the Reptile Supply Company in Sacramento.

• Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
• Zoo Med's Repti Calcium without D3
• Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamins without D3

Used according to the following schedule they are totally safe. I also use them for even 15 wee "chirper" geckos that have hatched beginning 14 Feb 2017. These young geckos are thriving.

Weekly Schedule for Leopard Geckos 12 months old & under​

Crickets or dubia >> Monday - lightly dusted with Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3
Mealworms >> Tuesday
Crickets or dubia >> Wednesday - lightly dusted with precipitated calcium carbonate without D3
Crickets or dubia >> Thursday
Crickets or dubia >> Friday - lightly dusted with Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins without D3
Mealworms >> Saturday
No food or free choice >> Sunday

Future weeks:
Continue on since all weeks are identical. . . . . .


I'll share why I love those products in the next post.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I will check out Repashy's Supervite as a multivitamin, but so far I've not heard of anyone using it.

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#132---Why I recommend Zoo Med's Repti Calcium w/ D3 & Zoo Med's ReptiVite w/o D3​

These are the supplements I use:

• Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3
• Zoo Med's ReptiVite multivitamins without D3 (The Reptile Supply Company carries ReptiVite without D3.)
• NOW brand or Zoo Med's brand plain precipitated calcium carbonate
• + Shaved cuttlebone in powder and in chunks for my breeding female Cyrtodactylus peguensis zebraicus

There are multiple reasons I prefer the supplements I recommend.

• Some vitamins (A, D, E, & K, for example) are fat soluble. They stick around a longer time and don't need to be taken daily or at every feeding.
• Vitamin C and the B vitamins are water soluble. They are excreted in urine.
• Some reptile multivitamins (Rep Cal's Herptivite, Exo Terra's multivitamin, others) only contain pro-formed vitamin A (beta carotene). It's been proven that lizards need a wee bit of pre-formed vitamin A acetate (retinol) in order to metabolize beta carotene.
• As your gecko grows, she will eat larger and larger crickets. Then, when you dust, she'll naturally be getting more supplements per cricket.
• Zoo Med's ReptiVite™ is highly recommended by Scott Stahl, DVM, the premiere reptile vet.
• My vet only recommends a wee pinch of Zoo Med's ReptiVite™ multivitamins at 1 feeding per week.
• Phosphorus negatively impacts calcium absorption. The more phosphorus a supplement has, the less any calcium is absorbed by the bones.
• Vitamin D3 needs to be taken with food.
• Calcium needs vitamin D3 in order to be absorbed. Dusting with plain calcium carbonate without giving vitamin D3 only helps if there is residual D3 inside your gecko.
• Excess calcium in the digestive tract can hinder absorption of vitamins A and D.
• Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 contains 22,907 IU/kg, 10,390 IU/pound. Repti Calcium contains "enough" D3.
• One schedule isn't good for life. There are actually 3 schedules: 124, 125, & 126.
• For geckos 12 months old and younger (and breeding females) add one day of pure calcium.
• It's harmful to have vitamin D3 in both the multivitamin and the calcium powder.

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There are subtle reasons I do what I do.

• Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 actually contains significantly more calcium per "dose" than does ReptiVite with or without D3 per "dose".
  • Repti Calcium with D3: 38-43% calcium per dose
  • ReptiVite: 25-28% calcium per dose
• Your gecko gets weekly vitamin D3 without overdoing other multivitamins.
• ReptiVite contains phosphorus; Repti Calcium is phosphorus-free.
• My recommendations depend upon feeding your crickets a good diet.

Consider using Nutrabol all-in-one multivitamins with a calcium : phosphorus ratio of 46 : 1 along with a pure precipitated calcium carbonate.

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Speaking of which, Dr. Scott Stahl, the premiere reptile vet, highly recommends the ZooMed product, ReptiVite™. Dr. Stahl states: "Originally formulated for zoos, it seems to work better than any other product I've tried including the Repashy supplements."

"My gutload mix includes paprika for Vitamin A. I also include carrot and dandelion greens for their moisture and other vitamins and nutrients. Plant-based is always more assimilable than manufactured supplements."

/\ Thanks to GU's billewicz (Michael) for sharing Dr. Stahl's feedback!

Click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...rounds-drying-geckos-feetsies.html#post456690

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

The pet store didn't carry Zoo Med Reptivite. They did have Repashy Supervite. I didn't see that in your list but the guaranteed analysis looks comparable. Am I missing something or is that an OK substitute?

Edit: Looks like no. I ordered Reptivite. Hopefully they'll take this other stuff back for store credit at least.

My local big box store is pretty flexible about returns if the product does not meet my geckos' needs.

If you are ordering, consider the 3 products I mentioned above just in case. Repti Calcium with and without D3 sticks to insect better than Reptivite does.

 

[LilBobbyD]

It's a independent reptile store. The leopards at the local big box stores did not look great. This place seemed decently knowledgeable and had lots of healthy looking reptiles but didn't have the widest array of products.

I ordered those three exactly. It will be here in time for Tuesday's feeding.

So happy to have the little lady (we think) in the house though! She moved right into her warm hide and has been peeking out on and off. She came mostly out to eat off the tongs which was super cool. Now me and the wife are just trying to resist going by the cage so she feels safe to explore the rest of it.

Vet appointment on Saturday. Her care sheet for leopard geckos recommends UVB so interested to hear what she says about the light and supplemental D3.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

It's a independent reptile store. The leopards at the local big box stores did not look great. This place seemed decently knowledgeable and had lots of healthy looking reptiles but didn't have the widest array of products.

I ordered those three exactly. It will be here in time for Tuesday's feeding.

So happy to have the little lady (we think) in the house though! She moved right into her warm hide and has been peeking out on and off. She came mostly out to eat off the tongs which was super cool. Now me and the wife are just trying to resist going by the cage so she feels safe to explore the rest of it.

Vet appointment on Saturday. Her care sheet for leopard geckos recommends UVB so interested to hear what she says about the light and supplemental D3.

Good job! :banana:

Kindly update this very thread with specifics on your vet's care sheet re UVB.

In fact use this thread for most anything. It helps us all have the big picture.

 

[LilBobbyD]

We finally remembered to take some pictures today while she was out for feeding. It is the only time she comes out with us around still but I assume that is pretty normal.

She has eaten for the last 2 days, 3 counting today, but have not found a poop yet. Should I be concerned? She seems to have a very healthy appetite. She eats off the tongs or will hunt things down if I drop them.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

You WILL find poop soon! Did you look in her cool hide?

Warm humid hides retain moisture longer if they're relatively closed off.

 

[LilBobbyD]

I checked under everything. Maybe today then.

Yeah, the top is usually on. I had taken it off to give it a spray and she poked her head out to see what was up so I just went right into feeding.

How often should I be changing the moss?

edit: Hooray we pooped

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I checked under everything. Maybe today then.

Yeah, the top is usually on. I had taken it off to give it a spray and she poked her head out to see what was up so I just went right into feeding.

How often should I be changing the moss?

edit: Hooray we pooped

:yahoo: for POOP!

That's good regarding the lid. I don't feel there's any need to change the moss very often unless your leo poops there.

 

[LilBobbyD]

Went to the Vet over the weekend. She did recommend installing the light. Said the small cage isn't really an issue as long as the light doesn't make it too hot and his hides are still dark internally. Since I only have an 8 watt bulb it barely puts out any heat so it hasn't screwed up my temps at all. He seems to enjoy it. I see him in the morning before work sticking his head or tail out of his hide. Prior to the UV light he was always tucked away in the dark of his hides and invisible. I also saw him out basking on his rock about an hour before the light turns off which was the first time I'd seen him just chilling there. So I'm glad he seems happy with it.

We have been pooping and eating everyday. Starting to get a nice little plump belly and tail. Nice clean sheds. Still doesn't want to be touched really but will stand on my hand and drink water and watch me do the daily tank chores. Hopefully well be shoulder riding and watching TV soon.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hello!

I'm going getting a leopard gecko soon and was planning on using a small UVB bulb and am wondering if this means I should not supplement D3 or just do it less often than is normally recommended.

His enclosure is 23x11x12 and the light is a Arcadia 2.4 UVB 8 watt seen here: Arcadia 8 watt MINI UV light Kit with USA / Canada (110v) adapter. - lightyourreptiles.com

I know the enclosure is a little smaller than ideal. The gecko is only 4 months I plan on getting at least a 30 inch but possible a 36 inch in the future. I have plans to switch to a larger vivarium setup if things go well in a more sterile environment.

What kind of supplement plan would you folks recommend?

Went to the Vet over the weekend. She did recommend installing the light. Said the small cage isn't really an issue as long as the light doesn't make it too hot and his hides are still dark internally. Since I only have an 8 watt bulb it barely puts out any heat so it hasn't screwed up my temps at all. He seems to enjoy it. I see him in the morning before work sticking his head or tail out of his hide. Prior to the UV light he was always tucked away in the dark of his hides and invisible. I also saw him out basking on his rock about an hour before the light turns off which was the first time I'd seen him just chilling there. So I'm glad he seems happy with it.

We have been pooping and eating everyday. Starting to get a nice little plump belly and tail. Nice clean sheds. Still doesn't want to be touched really but will stand on my hand and drink water and watch me do the daily tank chores. Hopefully well be shoulder riding and watching TV soon.

Thanks for updating your thread!

Did your vet recommend totally relying on this Arcadia 2.4 UVB 8 watt bulb and NOT supplementing with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 at all?

 

[LilBobbyD]

Correct no additional D3. When I asked if I should stop all D3 supplements she said yes. However she did say if he didn't seem to be taking advantage of the light it wouldn't hurt to do D3 once a month. She didn't seem to think there was much risk of over saturation mixing a small amount of supplemental D3 with the natural light.