Shaky legged fimbriatus

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

Fimbriatus help needed. My 6.5 month juvenile is walking with shaky legs. He eats mostly calcium/d3 dusted crickets (occasionally Grub Pie and dubias). I'm worried this is a sign is a sign of calcium deficiency. I'm trying to coax more Grub Pie and have moved him to a tank with UV in the day (pretty sure that doesn't work for uroplatus but I'll try anything).
Is this likely calcium deficiency? Any chance it's hypo-calcium?
Is it early enough to correct myself or is a vet check and bloods absolutely necessary (only reptile vets were not the greatest with exotics and I feel I lost my chameleons partially by them).

I had just noticed the shaking this week but I don't always take him out. He was eating and pooping this week.
The last time I had him out and took pictures without noticing anything with the walk was Sept 24th.

Thank you all!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Welcome to Geckos Unlimited!

I think it was you who mentioned you're using Zoo Med supplements.

• Both Repti Calcium with D3 and Reptivite multivitamins without D3?
• How often?

 

[ReptiFiles]

According to Uroplatus.org and other sources, UVB is strongly recommended for the health of all Uroplatus species. Shaky legs usually means not enough calcium, rather than too much, but symptoms of D3 overdose and calcium deficiency are deceptively similar. Can you see its calcium sacs (light-colored ovals under the skin) under the jaw? What do they look like?

I would recommend getting a blood sample done if you can. You can find ARAV-certified vets in your area at ARAV.org.

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

Welcome to Geckos Unlimited!

I think it was you who mentioned you're using Zoo Med supplements.

• Both Repti Calcium with D3 and Reptivite multivitamins without D3?
• How often?

HI, calcium/d3 90% of the time and reptivite maybe once a month.

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

My vet was aarv certified.. Said my not-eating post-clutch female would be fine (died), and my not eating and not-good-looking-mouth male would be fine (died). He actually said they were a bit overweight. No tests or anything.

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

Not much of any calcium sacs to be seen.

 

[ReptiFiles]

That's discouraging...I'm sorry to hear that you've had such a poor experience with your veterinarian, and I hope you've left reviews about them for other reptile keepers.

If blood tests aren't an option, and calcium sacs aren't visible, then I'm inclined to say that your gecko is most likely suffering from insufficient calcium. Get him/her under a high-quality 2-5% UVB fluorescent like the Zoo Med Reptisun 2.0 or 5.0 (avoid compacts/coil bulbs), or better yet, get one from the Arcadia brand.

Crickets and dubia roaches should be offered nightly, always dusted with a high quality calcium supplement. Offering small snails (undusted) may also be beneficial if you can get them. A multivitamin can mixed into the calcium supplement 50/50 1-2x per week. Fortunately fimbriatus don't seem to be as sensitive to vitamins as others, like sikorae for example. In fact, it may be that they have difficulty absorbing vitamins and need more than average.

I recommend using either Rep-Cal superfine powder with D3 or Miner-ALL Indoor formula for the calcium. Good multivitamin powders from my experience have been Herptivite and Vit-ALL.

Here's the care sheet from Uroplatus.org if you haven't read through it already: Uroplatus Information Center - Uroplatus fimbriatus

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

That's discouraging...I'm sorry to hear that you've had such a poor experience with your veterinarian, and I hope you've left reviews about them for other reptile keepers.

If blood tests aren't an option, and calcium sacs aren't visible, then I'm inclined to say that your gecko is most likely suffering from insufficient calcium. Get him/her under a high-quality 2-5% UVB fluorescent like the Zoo Med Reptisun 2.0 or 5.0 (avoid compacts/coil bulbs), or better yet, get one from the Arcadia brand.

Crickets and dubia roaches should be offered nightly, always dusted with a high quality calcium supplement. Offering small snails (undusted) may also be beneficial if you can get them. A multivitamin can mixed into the calcium supplement 50/50 1-2x per week. Fortunately fimbriatus don't seem to be as sensitive to vitamins as others, like sikorae for example. In fact, it may be that they have difficulty absorbing vitamins and need more than average.

I recommend using either Rep-Cal superfine powder with D3 or Miner-ALL Indoor formula for the calcium. Good multivitamin powders from my experience have been Herptivite and Vit-ALL.

Here's the care sheet from Uroplatus.org if you haven't read through it already: Uroplatus Information Center - Uroplatus fimbriatus

Yes, and it was two different vets in two different clinics sadly.

The UV he's been moved into is Arcadia.

I'm worried that it's uncertain whether or not this is a deficiency or overdosing. I'm also inclined to think deficiency with the shaking and lack of sacs. .

I'm just surprised it is a deficiency with the amount of dusting and vitamins I have been giving him..

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

Yes, and it was two different vets from two different clinics (though one clinic did try with the male more to be fair).

The UV he's been moved into is Arcadia.
Im also inclined to think it's a calcium deficiency with the shaking and lack of calcium sacs.
Im just surprised that it's a deficiency with the amount of dusting and vitamins I have been giving.

 

[ReptiFiles]

Yes, and it was two different vets from two different clinics (though one clinic did try with the male more to be fair).

The UV he's been moved into is Arcadia.
Im also inclined to think it's a calcium deficiency with the shaking and lack of calcium sacs.
Im just surprised that it's a deficiency with the amount of dusting and vitamins I have been giving.

I agree that this is very strange - hopefully the Arcadia helps!

It may be worth bringing your juvenile to the better vet specifically for a blood panel. Something as simple as blood calcium levels can be very revealing of what you're dealing with.

Meanwhile, keep an eye on your gecko's reflexes, energy levels, appetite, and other health indicators.

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

I agree that this is very strange - hopefully the Arcadia helps!

It may be worth bringing your juvenile to the better vet specifically for a blood panel. Something as simple as blood calcium levels can be very revealing of what you're dealing with.

Meanwhile, keep an eye on your gecko's reflexes, energy levels, appetite, and other health indicators.

(Don't see where to post without making a reply?)
UPDATE:
Took him out today to see how he is. He's been 2 days in tank with daytime UV (6‰ Arcadia over screen top) and coaxing some Grub pie for increased calcium.

He's visibly improved today.

I would compare the before to Parkinson's-like shaking steps

And now.. The shakes almost just look like tentative steps, slight shake. He even jumped a few times!

Vet checks in the future, I'll buy fresh bulbs at the expo this weekend, and I'm gonna keep my uroplatus with UV from now on. Further update to come.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

HI, calcium/d3 90% of the time and reptivite maybe once a month.

On FB you mention you dust with Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 "90% of the time" + "He's been 2 days in tank with daytime UV (6‰ Arcadia over screen top) and coaxing some Grub pie for increased calcium."

I think your Uro is getting way too much D3!

Reduce your powdered ZM Repti Calcium WITH D3 to lightly dusting prey @ ONLY 1 feeding per week. Even that could be too much, depending upon your Arcadia bulbs.

Hi ~

Click: Gecko Multivitamins

• Some geckos are too small or too delicate for blood calcium draws.
• Once a vet felt the jaws of one of my female geckos who was not large enough for a blood draw. The jaws were firm. The vet said "if the jaws are firm, the gecko has adequate blood calcium". That was not the case. Both females died from calcium crashes.
• Are your Zoo Med supplements current?
• Since D3 is fat soluble, it sticks around in a gecko's body.
• Fine mesh screen reduces UVB transmission up to 50%.

Too much vitamin D3 can cause similar problems to too little D3 (MBD). At least a residual amount of D3 still inside a gecko is necessary for the absorption of calcium.

You mention that you've been dusting @ 90% of feedings per week. You use Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 (contains both D3 (22,907 IU/kg) and calcium).

Miner-All Indoor contains 4,400 IU/kg D3. I have seen some geckos get deficient with less than a 1x per week dose similar to ZM Repti Calcium with D3 levels. Using Miner-All Indoor @ 5x per week = a ZM equivalent dose as far as D3 is concerned.


PS:

• How often have you been changing the UVB bulbs?
• Does your Reptivite multivitamins also contain D3?
• I use Zoo Med ReptiSun tubes. Zoo Med recommends that they be replaced annually.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

#10---Some UVB : UVI ratings -- shared August 2017

Here are some lighting specs from a friend who has bred Phelsuma mad mads and other Phelsuma for years.

Ratio of UVB : UVI (UltraViolet Index)

• Exo Terra compact fluorescent bulbs = 14
• ***Zoo Med Reptisun compact fluorescent bulbs = 31
• ***Zoo Med Reptisun fluorescent tubes (T 8 ) = 34
• ***Arcadia D3 23W E27 - no rating available
• Sunlight = ~40-50

. . . . . .

Melody also shares:
"I have info on reflectors too, which can make quite a difference! Arcadia sells a good reflector, but you can make one yourself by bending cardboard in an arc and covering it with tinfoil. Surprisingly, the dull side of tinfoil reflects UVB better than the shiny side! And white paint reflects light but not UVB!"

There's a FB group called "Reptile Lighting". Fran Baines is a good resource in that group.

 

[ReptiFiles]

Quick note about a couple of the points that Elizabeth Freer just made, to avoid confusion:
- All UVB bulbs should be replaced after 6 months, not 1 year. After 6 months UVB emission declines to the point where it is no longer useful to the reptile, inviting health issues that can easily be avoided by rotating more frequently.
- Although Arcadia doesn't have a formal UV index rating, the brand is widely regarded and recommended by breeders and other professionals as a superior product.
- More vitamin D3 is not always the best. Reptiles do not need a lot of D3 in order to properly metabolize calcium, and formulas like Rep-Cal and Miner-ALL are formulated to make the most of this ratio without risking D3 overdose. Breeders and professional collectors have been using these products for years in conjunction with their multivitamins, with consistently healthy animals as result.

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

Quick note about a couple of the points that Elizabeth Freer just made, to avoid confusion:
- All UVB bulbs should be replaced after 6 months, not 1 year. After 6 months UVB emission declines to the point where it is no longer useful to the reptile, inviting health issues that can easily be avoided by rotating more frequently.
- Although Arcadia doesn't have a formal UV index rating, the brand is widely regarded and recommended by breeders and other professionals as a superior product.
- More vitamin D3 is not always the best. Reptiles do not need a lot of D3 in order to properly metabolize calcium, and formulas like Rep-Cal and Miner-ALL are formulated to make the most of this ratio without risking D3 overdose. Breeders and professional collectors have been using these products for years in conjunction with their multivitamins, with consistently healthy animals as result.

HI everyone. Sorry. Trying to keep up (I still don't know how to post without making it a reply).

He's now in the tank with a 6% Arcadia with a reflector. Has only been for two days because I noticed the shaking this week. He had no UV before now. I will get fresh bulbs when I go to the Downsview expo on Sunday (Toronto).

I don't understand
"
You mention that you've been dusting @ 90% of feedings per week. You use Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 (contains both D3 (22,907 IU/kg) and calcium).

Miner-All Indoor contains 4,400 IU/kg D3. I have seen some geckos get deficient with less than a 1x per week dose similar to ZM Repti Calcium with D3 levels. Using Miner-All Indoor @ 5x per week = a ZM equivalent dose as far as D3 is concerned."



I will get him to the vet asap. Calling tomorrow.

I was interested in learning if the symptoms seemed like a deficiency or hypo. I am glad to see a clearer consensus on use of UV.. I'll use it with all my uroplatus now.

Other than that I'm getting drowned with the information I'm taking in from here, Facebook, the Breeders and experts I'm messaging.

I researched when I first bought the uroplatus and refreshed myself when the eggs were hatched and babies were born. Now that he's sick I will relearn the husbandry again.

But this format for learning (forums and messages with conflicting advice and multiple notifications) is very hard to follow. Sorry if I sound ungrateful.

Thank you. I'll update you with what the vet says

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thecoldandfuzzies ~

Both Arcadia and Zoo Med's UVB tube fluorescents are TOPS in the industry! Fluorescent tubes are usually rated somewhat higher than compact fluorescent bulbs produced by these manufacturers.

From my laptop, in the lower right hand corner, at the bottom of every post, there are 3 choices: Reply, Reply with Quote, and ". IF you wish to just Reply (with no quote of the last message) just press Reply. Can you do that?

Click: Uroplatus Information Center - Uroplatus fimbriatus

Luis C. Wiedemann is, I think, the founder of Uroplatus.org. He knows his stuff. Is he available? There are other experienced admins on the FB forum as well.

Luis published his Fimbriatus care sheet in September 2012. I see no mention that he uses UVB for them at that time. As you quoted from his Fimbriatus care sheet, Luis states: "Supplementation consists of Calcium w/D3 nightly with Herptivite once per week." He's one of the Uroplatus experts. Have you contacted him directly?

I think Luis is one of the Admins on the FB forum we've been posting on! However, FB won't let me see the Member/Admin list at this time.

Excessive vitamin D3 causes problems similar to inadequate vitamin D3. That's why I mentioned those things.

I'm sorry I chimed in. Each gecko species has very specific requirements. I hope you get this sorted out.

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

Oh.. I think only the reply with quote was there because I was logged out and had to log in and it would take me to the quote reply without seeing all the options. Thanks.

Appt with vet on Friday. Upgrading supplements and bulbs on Sunday at my local expo.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Oh.. I think only the reply with quote was there because I was logged out and had to log in and it would take me to the quote reply without seeing all the options. Thanks.

Appt with vet on Friday. Upgrading supplements and bulbs on Sunday at my local expo.

You're welcome.

Based upon your FB photo it looks like your young fimbriatus has been basking and might be getting stronger. :cheer:

Make sure all research you believe has substance.

 

[Thecoldandfuzzies]

Just came back from local arav vet.

He said Arcadia bulbs are more than enough for uroplatus..
-That dusting wasn't a problem (but with good bulbs like Arcadia I can do plain calcium)
- that his jaw was a bit soft hut he should be fine now that he has the UV and gutloaded food
- that big problem with reptiles is not proper gutloading. That crickets need 8/1 calcium gutloade to give the animals proper calcium
- my gutloaded of potato, carrot, apple, cricket block, timberline cricket aid, Pangea insect Grub are all bad because they don't have the calcium needed
- he recommends repashy superfood and water for gutloading
- he said tests aren't necessary for littlefoot
- this was the same vet I saw for my chams last year who ended up passing. I still feel iffy. I wish tests were done...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Many thanks for your update.