Bad shed, leading to bruised tail

Blush50

Member
so the Leo I'm having issues with has historically been a Meal Worm addict. I would say for the first 7 years of her life she almost exclusively ate Meal Worms. I always offer crickets and occasionally she would eat a couple (1 or 2), but for the most part, Meal Worms have been her staple. Since she started taking Dubias about a year ago, she has been pretty much eating them exclusively.
I have to learn how to quote more than one reply at a time��.
Yes this forum is very informative. Hopefully it's something minor and she makes full recovery. Please keep us informed.
 

Elizabeth Freer

Active member
I have to learn how to quote more than one reply at a time��.
Yes this forum is very informative. Hopefully it's something minor and she makes full recovery. Please keep us informed.

Blush50 ~ Do you see the + button to the right of "Reply With Quote"? Press that button on each thread you'd like to quote & then reply. That should give you the multi-quoted post you're looking for.

You could try that & then delete the 1-by-1 replies you have made.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Active member
9 yo for a leo is more a "young middle age".

What is her Repashy's Calcium Plus schedule? Is that the only supplement you use? How heavily or lightly do you dust her prey?

Do you feed her bugs or worms some dry maintenance diet in addition to some veggies?

How does your leo's schedule compare with Aliza's recommendations?

the leo i'm talking about has historically been addicted to Meal worms her entire life (I got her eating Dubias the last year), so I would generally dust her mealworms every time I feed her (because I find the powder doesn't really stick to Mealworms as well as Crickets). In the last year I have switched her over to Dubias, but I still dust every feeding. Ever since she had her tail amputated, I have been feeding her slightly more often (but not as much), she eats about 1-2 Dubias every 3 days now.

My other Leo is showing zero signs of swelling in any of her arms, and seems to be moving around just fine. She refuses mealworms, so I have historically given her crickets as a staple, but she will also eat hornworms and roaches. Since the calcium plus really sticks to crickets I will dust her food 2/3 feedings.

I just noticed the swelling this week, I have noticed the swelling in her back right knee actually go down and subside a little, but I also noticed swelling in her front right knee, which is what prompted me to make this post.

I have not yet informed my vet, but it's something I'm prepared to do. I actually wanted to get advice from the forum first b/c this forum has a lot more LG experience than my vet does.

I've read all your posts to date.

I'd like to know
  1. So you're currently dusting this leo's dubia 2-3x per week ("every 3 days")?
  2. Did you check out link 144? I've never used Repashy's Calcium Plus, but Aliza (acpart) used it in her former leopard gecko breeding program & now. She's the person who recommended cutting back dusting to exactly what Schedule 144 recommends.
  3. IF you're dusting more often than this schedule recommends, then please cut back dustings.
  4. Do you feed this leo's dubia a dry maintenance diet 24/7 + some veggies on the side?
  5. Are you keeping a water dish in her enclosure 24/7? She may be drinking secretly.
  6. Feeder Nutrition Insect Chart by dubiaroaches .com
    17342539_1319514908116112_444175116466682477_n.jpg
    (click to enlarge)

All leos are different -- just like people.

It sounds like this leo may be having arthritis-related symptoms. Gout is included in that. Unfortunately vets don't often have all the answers we look for, because of their gecko experience levels.
 
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Andi

New member
yes, I have cut back on the dusting. I've also stopped giving her dubias. She is actually with the vet now. Her swelling seems to have gotten slightly better, but it's still noticeable. Oddly enough, she took crickets 2x in a row, and her appetite seems to be great.

I keep water in her hide 24/7, and a moist hide (terra cotta hide), and I feed the feeders veggies (usually carrots, but also potatoes, banana, broccoli stalks, whatever scraps I have available).

I also think it's a Gout/arthritis related issue.
 

Elizabeth Freer

Active member
yes, I have cut back on the dusting. I've also stopped giving her dubias. She is actually with the vet now. Her swelling seems to have gotten slightly better, but it's still noticeable. Oddly enough, she took crickets 2x in a row, and her appetite seems to be great.

I keep water in her hide 24/7, and a moist hide (terra cotta hide), and I feed the feeders veggies (usually carrots, but also potatoes, banana, broccoli stalks, whatever scraps I have available).

I also think it's a Gout/arthritis related issue.

Many thanks for your reply, Andi! IF her vet has feedback, please share.

Perhaps she would love an 8 ounce water dish somewhere on her cool end too?

It's important to feed a low phosphorus dry diet to your leo's feeders 24/7 to cover the basics + veggies. Professional Reptiles' Pro Gutload is a good dry diet. Low phosphorus is vital, since many feeders are super high in phosphorus!

*** Professional Reptiles' Pro Gutload ***: manufactured by Cody Castellanos 1-775-359-1085
Pro Gutload is a healthy, low phosphorus, dry diet/bedding for mealworms/superworms and bugs too! After you get mealworms, replace the bedding they come in with already ground Professional Reptiles' Pro Gutload. Keep your mealworms at room temperature & in 6 quart plastic Sterilite tubs with bedding & ventilation, NOT in the refrigerator.

Gutload Ingredients for Bugs & Worms . . . . . . thanks to Olimpia -- August 2013

"A commercial gut loading food like Bug Burger or Superload (both by Repashy), Cricket Crack, Dinofuel, etc. is going to make your life easier AND provide a nutritious diet to your crickets at the same time. Avoid Fluker's gutloads, as they are super feeble in their formulas.

"If you opt for making your own gutload at home, here's a list of great ingredients to use:
BEST: mustard greens, turnip greens, dandelion flowers & leaves, collard greens, escarole lettuce, papaya, watercress, and alfalfa.
GOOD: sweet potato, carrots, (oranges), mango, butternut squash, kale, apples, beet greens, blackberries, bok choy, and green beans.
DRY FOOD: bee pollen, organic non-salted sunflower seeds, spirulina, dried seaweed, flax seed, and organic non-salted almonds.
AVOID AS MUCH AS POSSIBLE: potatoes, cabbage, iceberg lettuce, romaine lettuce, spinach, broccoli, tomatoes, corn, grains, beans, oats, bread, cereal, meat, eggs, dog food, cat food, fish food, canned or dead insects, vertebrates."
 
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Blush50

Member
I’m trying to picture 8 ounces. Big enough to soak? A dish big enough to lay in may help her cool down at and help humidity(if needed).

Do you use a UVB bulb? UV light is said to help humans with chronic kidney disease. It may help with renal insufficiency. At least it’s worth a try if used following Elizabeth’s safety guidelines. Thanks for the update
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Active member
I’m trying to picture 8 ounces. Big enough to soak? A dish big enough to lay in may help her cool down at minimum and help humidity(if needed).

Do you use a UVB bulb? UV light is said to help humans with chronic kidney disease. It may help with renal insufficiency. At least it’s worth a try if used following safety guidelines. Thanks for the update

For a leo soak, a dish should be more spacious than what I'm describing with belly-deep water. 8 ounces of water = a 1.5 inch deep x 3.75 inch diameter bowl (just the size of some 8 ounce measuring cups).
 

Andi

New member
Not sure what happened last week, but the site would not let me log in.

So....my experience with the vet was a very confusing one. He is adamant that my Leo doesn't have Arthritis or Gout, and he told me that Dubia Roaches don't cause gout, but instead Mealworms are more likely to cause gout. He told me that the swelling in her front knee is due to an infection b/c of stuck shed.

Now, I've had my Leos for close to 9 years, so I know what stuck shed looks like, and I can confirm she did have a little stuck shed on her toe nails, but nothing that would cause constriction or restriction....he did inform that she had a tiny little cut on one of her toes, which could potentially lead to the infection, which I noticed AFTER I picked her up. So I'm wondering if he actually caused this injury.

That said, the range of motion in her back knee doesn't look great either, and I asked him how an infection in a toe could impact two legs, and he didn't seem to have an answer for that.

I even asked him if it could be MBD, and he said no to that as well.

He's currently giving her antibiotic injections for two weeks which started last Thursday.

Her appetite is great. Her urates and poop look great. I have started using a UVB bulb the last few months, ever since I had an issue with her tail.

This vet did a pretty good job with her tail amputation, so I'd like to believe he knows what he's talking about, but I have my doubts, reason being is after her tail started to regenerate, I noticed the tiniest bit of tail rot on her tail and I took her back to him, and he told he couldn't even see it, and said the tail looks fine, but when I asked for the antibiotic cream, he gave me some. And btw, the very tip of her tail was necrotic, and it did end up healing with the cream....so if he couldn't see that, how does he see stuck shed that I never noticed?

I have also since stopped giving her Dubias, and have been giving her Crickets the last week+.
 

Andi

New member
He also suggested a soaking pan in her cage 24/7, and that I soak her 2x a week moving forward.

I personally don't even think it's a shedding issue....and I keep her terra cotta hide full with water 24/7.
 

Blush50

Member
my experience with the vet was a very confusing one.

I see why.

and he told me that Dubia Roaches don't cause gout, but instead Mealworms are more likely to cause gout

I wonder if this is based on purine content and in human consumption. I do know roaches store Uric acid.

I’m very glad to hear she is eating, urate and feces look great. No radiograph at least for reassurance?
 
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Blush50

Member
Any discussion on hydration? Antibiotics without that conversation would really scare me. A common finding in reptiles I’ve had blood work on as follow:

Biochemistry profile: all parameters within normal limits except total protein- mildly elevated suggest mild dehydration.

However, fluids should be calculated and given by the vet only, subcutaneously. If she moves to the cold side hide, leave her there. A lot of people get worried and think it’s necessary. It may be their way of reducing pathogens. They know what is best for them, at least most of the time. Best not take her out of the enclosure unless necessary during illness.

using a UVB bulb and Calcium with d3 at every feeding. I guess you didn’t trust the UVB bulb? Feel free to share pictures if you’re comfortable.
 
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Andi

New member
He did discuss soaking her 2x a week, and putting a water dish in her enclosure that she can actually sit in if needed. I will try to share pics here, but I need to figure out how, I've always had issues with that.
 

Blush50

Member
He did discuss soaking her 2x a week, and putting a water dish in her enclosure that she can actually sit in if needed. I will try to share pics here, but I need to figure out how, I've always had issues with that.

I see so perhaps the soaking is to entice your Leo to drink. I thought the vet was trying to make sure there was no remaining shed.

will try to share pics here, but I need to figure out how, I've always had issues with that

I do as well. Can’t you tell by my unorganized responses. :( Well I hope all goes well and appreciate your updates.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Active member
He did discuss soaking her 2x a week, and putting a water dish in her enclosure that she can actually sit in if needed. I will try to share pics here, but I need to figure out how, I've always had issues with that.

I see so perhaps the soaking is to entice your Leo to drink. I thought the vet was simply trying to make sure there was no remaining shed.
will try to share pics here, but I need to figure out how, I've always had issues with that
I do as well. Can’t you tell by my unorganized responses. :( Well I hope all goes well and appreciate your updates.

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Andi

New member
I thought the vet was simply trying to make sure there was no remaining shed.

I got the impression he was concerned about future stuck shed, not a hydration issue...but it's possible he was addressing hydration as well. My biggest issue is that I still don't believe it's a stuck shed issue, while he is practically convinced that it is. Swelling has absolutely gone down in both her front and back knee, but both knees still look very "stiff" to me when she's walking.
 

Blush50

Member
I got the impression he was concerned about future stuck shed, not a hydration issue...but it's possible he was addressing hydration as well. My biggest issue is that I still don't believe it's a stuck shed issue, while he is practically convinced that it is. Swelling has absolutely gone down in both her front and back knee, but both knees still look very "stiff" to me when she's walking.
she went back into shed, and shed again, but she had retained a lot of skin on her tail

How often does she shed?
 
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Andi

New member
when she had the issue with her tail, she was shedding often. But since her tail was amputated and regenerated her shed cycle seems to be totally normal. She sheds once every 4-6 weeks I would say.

She just finished up 1 week of injections, and the swelling has gone down considerably, her walking has also improved slightly as well. Vet wants to give injections for another week so I have two more injections to go.

Her appetite has been fantastic throughout this entire ordeal.

I've also taken her off dubias, so I'm not sure if that is also helping or not.
 

Andi

New member
I've been keeping my eyes open for hornworms that are not too big...but I don't think it's a hydration issue.

Today she actually finished up her last Antibiotic Injection. The Vet called me and exclaimed proudly "SHE LOOKS SOOOO MUCH BETTER", but I still see swelling in her knees, and when I pointed that out to him, he replied "Well, that's gout and arthritis".

This is the same guy who adamantly told me two weeks ago that it wasn't gout or arthritis, and that it was an infection.

he even told me that the dubias won't lead to gout, and that mealworms will, but she's been a mealworm addict the first 7-8 years of her life, and for the last 9-10 months has been eating Dubias almost exclusively.

Needless to say, I am done with this vet.
 

Blush50

Member
Oh no I wasn’t implying she is dehydrated. I just figured a high moisture insect can help with fluid while she is on an antibiotic.

I guess you sent him a picture or you had a follow up? So did you ask him what’s the plan as far as the gout? Sounds so strange. I think a new vet is in order.
 
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