Substrate

[Graham_s]

For a while now I have been unsure about what to use for a substrate for adult Uroplatus spp.
I am currently using an eco-earth substrate with paper towel on top so that the geckos can't ingest the substrate but so the humidity is still kept high. It is just annoying because it means I have to replace the paper towel more often because it degrades so quickly.

Has anyone else had a problem with impaction/ingestion of subsrate with their uroplatus?

I know most people with uroplatus keep adults on an earth/peat/coco fibre substrate, but I have had experiences with geckos being stupid and eating substrate before.

I just don't want to take any chances, but if I keep the substrate as it is at the moment, then I am limited to what can be in the vivarium, for example, it is more difficult to have live plants.

Anyone with any suggestions, experiences etc, please share them.

Cheers

Graham

 

[scintillatingstar]

Graham- I totally understand your concers, as I myself have had them. I have lost one Uro and it was 5 days after purchase. This lead me to believe it was parasites because the other of the pair is still alive and thriving to this day.
However, when the Uro was found, it had substrate/moss in its mouth. I have mixed feelings about whether it was parasites, or if in fact it had choked on the coco or moss substrate.
I have seen however, one of my Uros LICK the bed-a-beast when it was drinking from the water bowl I keep in there. It instantly pushed the substrate out of its mouth.
I have also seen the adults catch a cricket along with some substrate while hunting. It again pushed it out of her mouth.

I have two tanks, one kept on bed a beast the other on layers of paper towel. The ones on paper towel NEVER have a problem with ingesting anything other then what they are hunting.

So i would conclude this: Keeping a paper towel down, although somewhat frustrating, nearly eliminates all possibility of ingesting substrate. I lost one gecko on bed a beast (although it is not certain the cause) and none on paper towel. This leads me to believe that your method of keeping a paper towel over the substrate is a good tactic, and even though it degrades and you have to change it, it also makes it easy to remove eliminations.

Sorry for the book! Best of luck, let me know what you choose to do in the end!

 

[RFB2]

I use coco fiber for my Uroplatus. I have tried paper towel, but I found it much more difficult to keep the humidity at the proper level. Though, when I first traded in the paper towel for the coco bedding I was very nervous. The next night I watched my female ebens snatch a cricket and with it a mouth full of bedding. I panicked and put her in another tank with paper towel as the substrate. The next morning I got up a little early while it was still dark and as gross as this sounds, I was happy to witness her defecate. :coverlaugh: I got out my sons toy micro-scope and went to town. I found that she actually digested most of the coco bedding without any issue." I assume any ways" other than a few flecks of bedding everything looked normal. I kept her in there for about a week and she was fine, and all stools looked healthy" and yes I played with those too":?. That was about 3-4 months ago and she and the others are all doing awesome. I did how ever do one thing as a precaution. I switched to slightly larger prey. I figure if the prey was a little bigger, then the geckos would be less likely to ingest the bedding. I will admit though that I still get a little nervous using the bedding, but at the same time I think the benefits that it provides for a natural setup out way the risk involved with ingestion of the bedding.

Rob

 

[Graham_s]

Thanks to both of you for your detailed comments. I am glad it's not just me who worries.
I think I will keep them on the paper towel Until they move into a larger viarium and then I will re-assess the situation.

I had also thought that larger prey would help as it means that they are easier to catch so the chances of missing and getting some substrate will be lower.

I have to admit that most of the time, uroplatus seem to be very good hunters and rarely miss. However, like a lot of geckos they also lick themselves and flick their tongues out when walking around and they could get substrate in them that way. I suppose it is really just a question of whether they digest the substrate ok or not. I have had my cresties eat and pass vermiculite and eco earth ok, and be totally fine after, but I am not sure if it is different with uroplatus or not. Also, my cresties are not fed live food.

 

['stoph]

Adding some decorative pieces on the ground like rocks and logs makes the surface of ingestible substrate smaller thus less chance for problems,plants & moss can grow over/on them.

 

[y9pema]

i just pack it down as much as i can until it is fairly smooth.

 

[scintillatingstar]

'stoph, careful adding too many hard objects on the ground like rock. The Uro's like to dive on their prey and if the prey is on the rock it can hurt their nose's and jaw's. I've seen a couple juvies and adults with kind of..dented..noses, I would assume from their diving on prey and hitting something hard under it. Hope that is helpful!

 

['stoph]

The Uro's like to dive on their prey and if the prey is on the rock it can hurt their nose's and jaw's

i have to admit from own experience
Some animals like to slam their food items against branches and walls to kill it.
Makes some things inevitable -But hey I can't go remove all the branches for an arboreal gecko because he was too stupid to hurt himself .

don't worry, I kept him 2 days a bit dryer to avoid infection and it healed quickly. It didn't even left a scar.

What about bark chips - take a chunk of bark sterilize it with boiling water and break it in pieces just large enough so they are unable to swallow it.
Disadvantage - smaller insects can hide between the chips.
Advantage - It's free if you live near a forest, easy to remove,good for humidity,they cant bump their noses on it and it looks natural.

 

[scintillatingstar]

'stoph, is that a tokay you've got there, very pretty colouring!?

I have seen in large company stores, like petsmart, substrate that is coconut. It is just as you described, more like hunks of it, like perfect little cubes and such, not dirt and shredded like bed-a-beast. It costs $10 dollars here in the U.S. for a large bag
I had considered using that, as medium sized crickets can not crawl into it and hide. I also thought that it was natural, so it could not hurt them. It is also large enough where the Uro's could not ingest it at all when hunting! Plus, it's SUPER easy to spot clean, you just pull out the few cubes they deficated on!
The ONLY concern I had was that it might scratch them A LITTLE. I suppose, however, that this is inevitable unless one uses soft stuff that they can ingest!
Also, it would most likely work better for smaller Uros, like phants, most mossies and others. Fimbs, being larger, may ingest it?
Here is a picture, what does everyone else think of it?:

 

[MonteQ's]

I use coco fiber in all my tanks (phants). When I first got them I noticed one of my females ingesting a little of the substrate. This made me nervous, so I covered it with a thin layer of bark chips pressed into the coco fiber.

I haven't had any problems since. With misting it actually compacts more over time. For cleaning I usually have to scrape the top layer with a spoon to break it up. I've also noticed the crickets tend to spend less time on the floor of the tank since the switch.

For the ones that are paired up, I leave a small area exposed that I cover with ficus leaves.

I did see one post on another forum of a henkeli that had ingested a large amount of the wood chips though. I'll see if I can find the link tonight. As I've never kept any of the larger species, I can't speak about how it would work with them.

You could always try replacing the paper towel with astro turf or something less likely to degrade. Maybe cut slits in so you can fit it around the plants. Might be a bit of a pain at first, but who knows...lol

 

[MonteQ's]

I finaly had a chance to track that post down. I hope it's okay to link to another forum. If not, feel free to remove.

Warning!! This shows a necropsy, and contains graphic images.
For those of you who use bark substrate ( necropsy photos) - Gecko Resource Forums

My guess is there was a loose layer of the bark chips in this ones' tank. If you press them in it actually forms a pretty tough layer.

 

['stoph]

I finaly had a chance to track that post down. I hope it's okay to link to another forum. If not, feel free to remove.

Warning!! This shows a necropsy, and contains graphic images.
For those of you who use bark substrate ( necropsy photos) - Gecko Resource Forums

They are talking about orchid bark in that thread, it's small bark chips mixed with humus and coco fiber- great soil for epifyt plants.
The pieces i use are a lot bigger.

On the left the orchid bark and on the right the stuff i use. (I rule them that they are same size or bigger compared to the animals head)
I think repti bark is somewhere between the 2

My guess is there was a loose layer of the bark chips in this ones' tank. If you press them in it actually forms a pretty tough layer.

The fact you can compress it is one of the sources of the problem it will also compress in their gut and form blocks.
Compared to that it would be better to have small hard pieces that can pass without getting compacted.
Best in my eyes is still larger pieces they can't ingest at all.
If you look at the pic of the necropsy you see the ball of small compressed substrate.
He didn't eat that in one evening but once a small non-digestible ball is formed it keeps on growing.

 

[Graham_s]

Thanks again to everyone who has replied.

@ MonteQ - I have tried something similar to the astro turf thing you suggested. I tried Coco liner (what is used to line hanging baskets) but it is sold on a roll by the metre and is 100% natural. The only issue I had with this is over time it seems to degrade as well in high humidity viariums, and I have seen geckos lick as they wander around and catch a stray piece of coconut coir in their mouth and instead of push it out of their mouths they try to eat the lot, which would cut them to pieces inside if ingested fully. However, this doesn't seem to be a problem if the gecko is larger.

Edit: looking at that link is making me even more nervous about using anything other than paper towel.

 

[MonteQ's]

Stoph - I never thought of compacting it making things worse, I figured it would make it harder to ingest to begin with. Thanks for the thought. I'll be redoing tanks at the end of the summer, I might try switching things around. The bark I use is too large for the phants to ingest, definitely agree with you on that point.

Graham - Loose substrate in general makes me nervous. If you look hard enough, You'll probably be able to find someone who's had issues with anything. Hopefully you'll find some solution that'll keep you and the geckos happy.

btw- The coco liner was a good idea! Probably looked a whole lot better than astro-turf ever could! Lol

 

[Graham_s]

Stoph - I never thought of compacting it making things worse, I figured it would make it harder to ingest to begin with. Thanks for the thought. I'll be redoing tanks at the end of the summer, I might try switching things around. The bark I use is too large for the phants to ingest, definitely agree with you on that point.

Graham - Loose substrate in general makes me nervous. If you look hard enough, You'll probably be able to find someone who's had issues with anything. Hopefully you'll find some solution that'll keep you and the geckos happy.

btw- The coco liner was a good idea! Probably looked a whole lot better than astro-turf ever could! Lol

I don't think I will ever be totally happy with loose substrate.
I suppose another option would be to provide the live food in a dish, but then the gecko won't get the exercise.

The coco liner seemed to work well for the guentheri but not the cf ebenaui, so I may have to see what else I can find.

I know its not substrate, but I did see my male guentheri dive for a cricket last night and got a dead ficus leaf in his mouth as well, but he spat that out and ate the cricket, so maybe they are more clever than I give them credit for.

 

[scintillatingstar]

You are keeping substrate below the paper towel, yes? I have purely paper towel down right now, multiple layers to make it soft when the geckos dive on it. This simply does not work, as it does not hold humidity nearly as long as it needs to!

 

[Graham_s]

You are keeping substrate below the paper towel, yes? I have purely paper towel down right now, multiple layers to make it soft when the geckos dive on it. This simply does not work, as it does not hold humidity nearly as long as it needs to!

Yes, I have the substrate, then the paper towel, so that they can't eat the substrate but the humidity is still high. Give it a go

 

[jabberwock486]

one thing i have started doing is using leaves to cover the soil. it provides a more inviting ground cover for the geckos to hunt. also it does prevent the from getting mouthful of dirt, its easy to spit out a leaf. although dirt doesn't seem to be a problem, they can spit it out. a small amount of coco fiber will not hurt. after all these animals must deal with this in the wild.

i get the leaves from my yard, but i process them first. they get baked in the oven at 315 F for around 15 minutes. this dries and kills almost everything. then they get bagged and placed in the freezer until needed. maple and oak leaves are used for the most part. large cottonwood leaves are great too.

i did this first in a small chameleon cage. then decided it was a good idea for the geckos. they love it.

 

[scintillatingstar]

The process...Thinking about putting paper towel on top

First i put down tropical (bed-a-beast more or less) bedding, and compacted it real good by pushing it down. (dark brown stuff)

Then i poured coconut bark on top of that:

I pushed that down INTO the tropical bedding. It didnt turn out like i thought it would, but its ok. This is as flat and compact as i could get it:

This is the view from the top. The viv isnt finished, this is just to show the bottom of the cage and its substrate.

 

[Graham_s]

not sure about the coco bark as I think that could be easily ingested. What sort of diameter are the coco bark pieces? If this is for sikorae I think I might take out the coco chips and put loads of cork bark in on the floor (so less substrate is exposed (and looks more natural)) and as arboreal pieces as well. Obviously you could try paper towel on top as well and see how it works for you.