Need Temp / Activity advice from the experts!

[Tami]

Hi All - everyone on this forum gives such great advice in keeping our little critters healthy, I'm hoping someone can steer me in the right direction with this. I have 2 issues / questions:

1. My Leo (about 8 mos old? picture attached) up until about a week ago had been eating 8-12 crix a night, as well as a few mealworms daily. Lately he doesn't seem at all interested in eating daily and instead is eating maybe 4-5 crix and 4-5 mealworms every other day. Sometimes every 2 days. Is this normal? Is he becoming "an adult" and requiring less food?

I'm thinking the decrease in appetite may have to do with his cage temps. I have a few pics attached of his set-up. I have an UTH attached to a thermostat with a floor probe and floor thermometer, as well as a digital thermometer on the lower part of the cage glass. The digital thermometer says the air temp is about 84-ish most of the time, however I can't seem to keep the floor temp regulated. I set the dial on the thermostat to 92, (warm side) but it fluxuates wildly...sometimes it will shoot up to around 100, other times down to the mid to high 80's.

The other problem is that Cowboy spends most of his time in the large black hide (see picture) which has a thick plastic bottom and a layer of moss, which I keep misted. He seems to love it in there, but I'm concerned that he's not getting adequate belly temps. I use a red lamp positioned over the hide during the day which helps heat up the inside temps of the hide, but I'm sure it gets nowhere near the 90's.

So - should I increase the temp on the thermostat, which would make the floor temps VERY hot, but probably make the temp inside the hide in the low 90's, where he hangs out all day? Or should I assume that if he wants/needs belly heat, he'll come out and lounge on the cage floor?

2. I get him out of the cage several times a week, close the doors off to my carpeted bathroom and let him run around under my supervision. He's very curious and seems to enjoy "checking things out", running here and there. However after about 10-15 minutes he feels cold to the touch, so I then put him back in the cage to warm up. Is this a good thing to do, or is it better just to keep him in the cage at all times with occasional handling? He's very tame and let's me handle him with no problem.

Thanks for any advice you can offer! He's such a little cutie, I want to make sure I'm doing everything right.:?

 

[Nayte]

From the pictures you posted. His tail is very plump, so he is obviously healthy. I too have a little one about 7 or 8 weeks old and he will barely eat right now, and he also won't come out of his hide.
I just bought another young one yesterday, maybe about the same age, and they both stay in the hide. However, I have 2 more who are about 5 1/2 to 6 months old, already sexed, and they rarely come out as well. I do have a room in the house which is a little colder than the rest, so if we have the same issues, it may just be the air temperature, not the ground temperature. He'll only need the belly heat to help him digest his food, but if his shed is coming, he will like the moisture a little bit more

 

[Tami]

Thank you - Cowboy sheds pretty regularly, and he really seems to love his moist hide. I just worry that he's not eating enough....I am really disappointed in the thermostat set up I bought - I thought I could just set the dial and be done with it. It requires constant regulating it seems.

 

[Nayte]

Yeah there are many preferences with thermometres. The big problem is that if you have two diff. therms and they both say something different, its hard to tell what one is more accurate.

And yeah, your Cowboy should be totally fine unless you start to notice that he's losing weight, especially in his tail.

And yeah; it could possibly be worms, and it would never hurt to check

 

[ColdBlooded]

Do you have a digital thermometer with a probe? I see you have a stick on thermometer/hydrometer stuck in the back but it lacks a probe (good for measuring ambient temperatures) and I see a mercury thermometer on the floor... that could be part of your problem because analog thermometers tend to be horribly inaccurate.

What brand is your thermostat?

Also, it is not unusual for a leo's appetite to slack off as they mature. Most of my adults eat every 2-3 days while my juveniles will eat every day. Another possible cause for a lack of interest in food is ovulation in females. Are you positive it's a male? It is the end of the breeding season but I've had females ovulate late before.

He looks healthy and plump, so you're doing well!

 

[Tami]

Do you have a digital thermometer with a probe? I see you have a stick on thermometer/hydrometer stuck in the back but it lacks a probe (good for measuring ambient temperatures) and I see a mercury thermometer on the floor... that could be part of your problem because analog thermometers tend to be horribly inaccurate.

What brand is your thermostat?

Also, it is not unusual for a leo's appetite to slack off as they mature. Most of my adults eat every 2-3 days while my juveniles will eat every day. Another possible cause for a lack of interest in food is ovulation in females. Are you positive it's a male? It is the end of the breeding season but I've had females ovulate late before.

He looks healthy and plump, so you're doing well!

Thanks - and you're right, he's definitely not lacking in the PlumpTail department - :lol: In answer to your questions:

I have a digital thermometer posted above his moist hide. That measures the ambient temps in the low to mid 80's. (and that's with the UTH AND a 50w red bulb overhead!)

The thermostat is a Zilla brand; the UTH is ZooMed - I think? The mercury thermometer I bought because someone on this site highly recommended as being THE most accurate. (Riverside Reptiles maybe? Can't remember) Anyway - if there's a better (acurate) floor thermometer I should buy, please let me know and I will certainly do it. The stick stats were purchased prior to the digital and mercury themometers. I just left them.

And.....GREAT POINT about the sex - no, I am not at all sure whether Cowboy is actually a CowBOY or a CowGIRL! :lol: Every time I try to hold "him" upside down to check, he goes nuts and hisses at me. Any suggestions there? I never thought about the fact that it could be a female in breeding season turmoil. :blushing: So ~~~ that's an issue even if they aren't breeding?

Thanks so much for your help!

 

[Tami]

Oh - and yes, forgot to mention - the thermostat does have a probe....if you look at the middle picture I posted, you can see the black probe on the floor next to the mercury thermometer.

 

[ColdBlooded]

Yes, but does the THERMOMETER have a probe? That's why I'm wondering if your temperature readings are incorrect. My UTH's all run 115F when unregulated.. part of it depends on the ambient temperatures in your house (on how hot your UTH will run)..anyway, what I'm saying is that the UTH should be heating properly on its own.

Try holding him vertically instead of upside down. Most will still not appreciate it but it's better than trying to flip them on their backs and hold them that way.

If your gecko is male you will notice a V shape between his thighs. These are preanal pores. Notice how I'm holding him, too:

 

[T-ReXx]

Hi All - everyone on this forum gives such great advice in keeping our little critters healthy, I'm hoping someone can steer me in the right direction with this. I have 2 issues / questions:

1. My Leo (about 8 mos old? picture attached) up until about a week ago had been eating 8-12 crix a night, as well as a few mealworms daily. Lately he doesn't seem at all interested in eating daily and instead is eating maybe 4-5 crix and 4-5 mealworms every other day. Sometimes every 2 days. Is this normal? Is he becoming "an adult" and requiring less food?

I'm thinking the decrease in appetite may have to do with his cage temps. I have a few pics attached of his set-up. I have an UTH attached to a thermostat with a floor probe and floor thermometer, as well as a digital thermometer on the lower part of the cage glass. The digital thermometer says the air temp is about 84-ish most of the time, however I can't seem to keep the floor temp regulated. I set the dial on the thermostat to 92, (warm side) but it fluxuates wildly...sometimes it will shoot up to around 100, other times down to the mid to high 80's.

The other problem is that Cowboy spends most of his time in the large black hide (see picture) which has a thick plastic bottom and a layer of moss, which I keep misted. He seems to love it in there, but I'm concerned that he's not getting adequate belly temps. I use a red lamp positioned over the hide during the day which helps heat up the inside temps of the hide, but I'm sure it gets nowhere near the 90's.

So - should I increase the temp on the thermostat, which would make the floor temps VERY hot, but probably make the temp inside the hide in the low 90's, where he hangs out all day? Or should I assume that if he wants/needs belly heat, he'll come out and lounge on the cage floor?

2. I get him out of the cage several times a week, close the doors off to my carpeted bathroom and let him run around under my supervision. He's very curious and seems to enjoy "checking things out", running here and there. However after about 10-15 minutes he feels cold to the touch, so I then put him back in the cage to warm up. Is this a good thing to do, or is it better just to keep him in the cage at all times with occasional handling? He's very tame and let's me handle him with no problem.

Thanks for any advice you can offer! He's such a little cutie, I want to make sure I'm doing everything right.:?

Ok first of all from your setup I'd say you're doing everything right. At 8 months old I would expect a change in feeding habits, leos aren't growing as fast at that age and males especially don't need as much food. My adults eat 3x a week, and usually only 5-8 insects per feeding(though some of my males are pigs and will eat as many as they can shove in their mouths). Another factor is probably the change in season. Leopards tend to start eating less this time of year as their internal clocks tell them its time to think about spending less time active because it's "winter time." As long as his weight remains good(he looks great) and he doesn't completely go off food I wouldn't be too concerned.

As far as temps go I think you're ok. I don't like 100F hot spot, so you may actually want to consider a better thermostat, I recommend Johnson, Ranco, or Herpstat. Helix are great but not really necessary unless you have a large/expensive collection or won't be around much to check things. And the important thing is to provide options. My geckos can choose to be between 72F at the cool end and 90F at the hot spot, and in reality they spend most of their time at the cool end. They only "bask" when they need to warm up before becoming active and/or when digesting food. So keep things as they are. Too warm and you will have problems. As long as he has the option to warm himself, he will when he feels the need to.

2. I would not recommend letting leos run around. They feel unsafe in wide open spaces and although a few short (15 min) handling sessions a few times a week are fine, for the most part they prefer to feel like they are hidden. It's a big world and they're little lizards with lots of things that might want to eat them. So I'd avoid the running around thing.

Other than that looks like you're doing a great job and your gecko is 100% healthy. Enjoy him!

 

[Tami]

Thank you sooo much...you have no idea how much I appreciate you guys who have "been there done that." I am pretty new to the whole reptile thing, and I would never forgive myself if something I did resulted in problems for the little guy. (or gal :lol

Looks like maybe I need to invest in a little better temp regulation system...y'know, it's so funny, you can read 20 different posts / threads / care sheets / on how to do things, and they all can say 20 different things. The only reason I bought the mercury thermometer is because someone posted (somewhere) that "it's the only kind that will give you an accurate reading". Now seems like that's far from the case.

That's why I like this forum - the advice is solid and from those who actually know what they're doing. Thanks again.

 

[Tami]

Yes, but does the THERMOMETER have a probe? That's why I'm wondering if your temperature readings are incorrect. My UTH's all run 115F when unregulated.. part of it depends on the ambient temperatures in your house (on how hot your UTH will run)..anyway, what I'm saying is that the UTH should be heating properly on its own.

Try holding him vertically instead of upside down. Most will still not appreciate it but it's better than trying to flip them on their backs and hold them that way.

If your gecko is male you will notice a V shape between his thighs. These are preanal pores. Notice how I'm holding him, too:

CB - the mercury thermometer has a probe on one end of it...don't know how accurate it is, but it does have one. (red glass 'ball' shaped probe) It's just a cheap mercury thermometer - sounds like I need to get a different one? Everything I've read stresses the importance of measuring the FLOOR temps vs. the air, because the belly heat is what's important - not the ambient air. Based on TRexx's reply, it sounds like the issue may be with my thermostat...if I "upgrade" that, any suggestions on the best thermometer to buy with it? Oh, and we do keep the house on the cool side - 69F at night and 72F during the day.

I really appreciate you posting the picture of the appropriate way to sex a gecko - no wonder he objected to it - I was trying to hold him basically upside down, which he definitely didn't appreciate one bit! I'll try it the way you suggested and see what I can find.

 

[Tami]

Ok first of all from your setup I'd say you're doing everything right. At 8 months old I would expect a change in feeding habits, leos aren't growing as fast at that age and males especially don't need as much food. My adults eat 3x a week, and usually only 5-8 insects per feeding(though some of my males are pigs and will eat as many as they can shove in their mouths). Another factor is probably the change in season. Leopards tend to start eating less this time of year as their internal clocks tell them its time to think about spending less time active because it's "winter time." As long as his weight remains good(he looks great) and he doesn't completely go off food I wouldn't be too concerned.

As far as temps go I think you're ok. I don't like 100F hot spot, so you may actually want to consider a better thermostat, I recommend Johnson, Ranco, or Herpstat. Helix are great but not really necessary unless you have a large/expensive collection or won't be around much to check things. And the important thing is to provide options. My geckos can choose to be between 72F at the cool end and 90F at the hot spot, and in reality they spend most of their time at the cool end. They only "bask" when they need to warm up before becoming active and/or when digesting food. So keep things as they are. Too warm and you will have problems. As long as he has the option to warm himself, he will when he feels the need to.

2. I would not recommend letting leos run around. They feel unsafe in wide open spaces and although a few short (15 min) handling sessions a few times a week are fine, for the most part they prefer to feel like they are hidden. It's a big world and they're little lizards with lots of things that might want to eat them. So I'd avoid the running around thing.

Other than that looks like you're doing a great job and your gecko is 100% healthy. Enjoy him!

By the way, meant to ask this when I responded to your reply but forgot...what about the thermometer? ColdBlooded was asking if mine has a probe (it does) albeit it's just a cheap metal floor model. If I upgrade the thermostat to one of the brands you mentioned, what kind of floor thermometer do you suggest? I know that's more important than the ambient temps. And yes, he's got options....the cool side is around 74F, sometimes a little higher - but he rarely goes to that end except at night, when he prowls all over the cage. Thanks again.

 

[ColdBlooded]

ESU Digital Thermometer <- that is what you need. It's a digital thermometer with a probe. Floor temperatures are critical to know.

Your thermostat could well be the issue, TRexx suggested great thermostats so I would definitely look into those.

 

[T-ReXx]

Yeah, definatly get a digital thermometer with a probe. Those mercury ones are crap, usually off by 10 degrees or so. I'd go with the esu Cold Blooded suggested, or any of the ones available with a probe; Zilla, T-Rex, Zoomed. Another nice piece of equipment is the Tempgun by Pro Exotics, lets you take infared readings anywhere in the cage, including the gecko itself. I consider mine to be indispensable. You can find them online at various supply places, all for around 25 bucks.

 

[Tami]

Yeah, definatly get a digital thermometer with a probe. Those mercury ones are crap, usually off by 10 degrees or so. I'd go with the esu Cold Blooded suggested, or any of the ones available with a probe; Zilla, T-Rex, Zoomed. Another nice piece of equipment is the Tempgun by Pro Exotics, lets you take infared readings anywhere in the cage, including the gecko itself. I consider mine to be indispensable. You can find them online at various supply places, all for around 25 bucks.

THANK YOU - I will buy the ESU tomorrow as well as the TempGun - didn't know such a thing existed...that's great. Sigh...I've (apparently) spent allot of money on crap! :-x This is actually the 2nd thermostat I bought...when the temps were so "off" I thought the problem was the thermostat, and bought another one. Live and learn I guess. Thanks again.

 

[Tami]

ESU Digital Thermometer <- that is what you need. It's a digital thermometer with a probe. Floor temperatures are critical to know.

Your thermostat could well be the issue, TRexx suggested great thermostats so I would definitely look into those.

Done! Thanks so much for the help. One other question....I did a little investigating and....yep, Cowboy is actually a CowGIRL. :coverlaugh: I didn't know anything about the breeding season affecting lizards that weren't actually breeding. Is there anything else I should know about "raising" a female Leo?

Thanks again.

 

[ColdBlooded]

Done! Thanks so much for the help. One other question....I did a little investigating and....yep, Cowboy is actually a CowGIRL. :coverlaugh: I didn't know anything about the breeding season affecting lizards that weren't actually breeding. Is there anything else I should know about "raising" a female Leo?

Thanks again.

Well, the only thing that really sticks out is that sometimes when females ovulate they go on "hunger strikes" where they won't eat for a month or three. When mine did this the first time I was pretty freaked out but I monitored their weights and they only lost a couple grams at most. Offer food regularly - just because some females do this doesn't mean they all do. I have one that will continue to eat through her cycle.

The natural breeding season starts in the spring and ends about..now actually. It is unusual for females to ovulate this late but I have seen it happen. :shock:

Anyway, glad we could help you out and good luck with your girl.

 

[Tami]

Well, the only thing that really sticks out is that sometimes when females ovulate they go on "hunger strikes" where they won't eat for a month or three. When mine did this the first time I was pretty freaked out but I monitored their weights and they only lost a couple grams at most. Offer food regularly - just becomes some females do this doesn't mean they all do. I have one that will continue to eat through her cycle.

The natural breeding season starts in the spring and ends about..now actually. It is unusual for females to ovulate this late but I have seen it happen. :shock:

Anyway, glad we could help you out and good luck with your girl.

OMG - are you kidding me???? Your females didn't eat for up to three months??? I would have been running off to the vet, spending way too much money for him to tell me it was PMS. (or whatever you call it in the reptile world) That's crazy! Glad you told me though, at least now I can be prepared for it. So.......I'm guessing I should have a reptile scale? :idea: I have no idea how much he....er, SHE weighs. Is that important to monitor?

 

[ColdBlooded]

OMG - are you kidding me???? Your females didn't eat for up to three months??? I would have been running off to the vet, spending way too much money for him to tell me it was PMS. (or whatever you call it in the reptile world) That's crazy! Glad you told me though, at least now I can be prepared for it. So.......I'm guessing I should have a reptile scale? :idea: I have no idea how much he....er, SHE weighs. Is that important to monitor?

Nope, not kidding. It happens and it is stressful (for us, not really for them because it's natural). The worst one, for me, was Solis. She ate probably a total of 5 roach nymphs spread out over 3 months. She lost a gram. Ha. (she's 75 g)

It's called ovulation. If you were to hold the female vertically and very gently bend her back you would see a pink, eraser shaped spot on her belly below her rib cage and possibly two white ovals (egg follicles).

Yes, monitoring your animal's weight is important - especially if you think they might be sick. I keep records of their weights so I can see any subtle changes or monitor growth in juvies. I use a small jewelry scale and a small margarine tub. Place the margarine tub on the scale's plate, tare it out, put gecko in tub and presto - gecko weight. (The most common increment used is grams.)

 

[Tami]

Nope, not kidding. It happens and it is stressful (for us, not really for them because it's natural). The worst one, for me, was Solis. She ate probably a total of 5 roach nymphs spread out over 3 months. She lost a gram. Ha. (she's 75 g)

It's called ovulation. If you were to hold the female vertically and very gently bend her back you would see a pink, eraser shaped spot on her belly below her rib cage and possibly two white ovals (egg follicles).

Yes, monitoring your animal's weight is important - especially if you think they might be sick. I keep records of their weights so I can see any subtle changes or monitor growth in juvies. I use a small jewelry scale and a small margarine tub. Place the margarine tub on the scale's plate, tare it out, put gecko in tub and presto - gecko weight. (The most common increment used is grams.)

You are officially my new best friend, :crackup: Seriously, I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain from time to time...both you and TRexx have given me great info, and I really appreciate it!