Injured/Stressed/Sick Tokay

[cricket4u]

Yes, cricket, I saw that . How many days out from the tail injury are we?

Sorry, I thought you missed the picture. She noticed the wound Friday. The first 4-5 days the wound is in inflammatory phase, therefore not drastic changes are observed. You will want to wait at least a week after to re-examine it again. She'll just cause more unnecessary stress to the gecko pulling him out of the enclosure at this point.

 

[cassicat4]

Cricket - I was thinking the same, that it was self-inflicted. He's a grumpy butt in his enclosure, so if I had to guess, I would say he was nipping at a cricket and got himself instead.

I've left him alone completely (starting yesterday), and the few glances I got at his tail, I believe it is healing up.

I don't believe locusts are allowed either, unfortunately! We're kinda limited in our feeder choices, unless you're big into mealworms, kingworms, or superworms which are always available and easy to find. The rest of the worms - butter, phoenix, horn, and silks - are expensive and hard to find where I live as well, but I find most of my critters reject all of these anyway. I might have to try with the hornworms again.

billewicz - yes, he was by himself when this happened as he lives alone. I don't think the tip of his tail is nipped off either - at least, there's nothing I can tell that shows as such. Does it look like it's missing?

Thankfully he's never been caught in his doors or anything, and none of his decor has ever moved or fallen down, but that's not to say he didn't get it caught or scraped along any of them either.

I'll leave him be and let him heal up on his own.

I'll see what I can come up with for more hides, based on how he likes to sleep. Maybe another cork round near the front?

So I tried the tub idea for crickets, and he didn't eat any last night. Is it possible it's because he won't eat from a tub? If so, should I allow them to free-roam again, or is there a way I can try and encourage him to eat from it? He used to eat his superworms from a glass bowl with no issue, but it wasn't large enough to contain crickets so I switched out to a tupperware container. I did disable the crickets though, so maybe they didn't move around enough for his liking? If I do allow crickets to free-roam, how many would you suggest I start with? I'm only hesitant on doing so right now because if he's still off food, I think the crickets would just cause him stress.

I'll avoid the pinks for now, and try and get him to eat butterworms and hornworms instead. When tong-feeding, the only reason he eats these worms is because he barks and attacks them, and winds up with them in his mouth. Is this normal? Or am I essentially force-feeding him by doing it this way?

I won't feed Repashy. I didn't think it was a good idea, but I've been hearing it a lot so just making sure. I definitely don't want him getting addicted to something he can't have!

Elizabeth - I'll try and take an updated picture today, once he's sleeping in a position where I can get a picture without disturbing him.

I generally give him crickets in the evening (around 11pm or so) and then leave them overnight (I keep a piece of potato in the corner for them at all times) and then remove them in the morning. Unfortunately, because they were hiding in the foam and I didn't realize this, I don't know how long these ones in particular were still in the enclosure, and I also kept adding crickets every night because it looked like he had eaten them all from the night before. :/ Very frustrating.

Thanks everyone for your help once again!

 

[XoVictoryXo]

How is his tail doing today? Hope it looks a TON better and his appetite is back.

That really is too bad about not being able to supply dubias.
By the way, what you described is not forcefeeding at all, forcefeeding is prying open his mouth and shoving it down his throat! If he eats it and doesnt regurgitate or spit it out- i think he is enjoying it. You are doing a great job, dont beat yourself up. stuff happens!

Its always he may have nicked it on something or nibbled on it, and the crickets just pecked away at it. they are nasty/clever lil things.

I think i read something about some breed crickets being more aggressive then others. Maybe you can make sure this isnt the cricket you are feeding as they are more aggressive then the normal brown crickets.

Mystery of the 'Crazy Reds' (more on feeder crickets...see update comment: We Now Have A Name!) - BugGuide.Net

Attack of the Feeder Crickets | Gecko Time

 

[billewicz]

Yes, the second link for "Attack of the Feeder Crickets" is very possibly the cause of your Tokay tail issue. Try to confirm the source of your crickets and which type they are.

 

[cassicat4]

How is his tail doing today? Hope it looks a TON better and his appetite is back.

That really is too bad about not being able to supply dubias.
By the way, what you described is not forcefeeding at all, forcefeeding is prying open his mouth and shoving it down his throat! If he eats it and doesnt regurgitate or spit it out- i think he is enjoying it. You are doing a great job, dont beat yourself up. stuff happens!

Its always he may have nicked it on something or nibbled on it, and the crickets just pecked away at it. they are nasty/clever lil things.

I think i read something about some breed crickets being more aggressive then others. Maybe you can make sure this isnt the cricket you are feeding as they are more aggressive then the normal brown crickets.

Mystery of the 'Crazy Reds' (more on feeder crickets...see update comment: We Now Have A Name!) - BugGuide.Net

Attack of the Feeder Crickets | Gecko Time

I believe his tail is healing. It's completely dark and scabbed over, but not getting worse, and doesn't seem to be bothering him either. Thanks for asking!

He is eating again as well (on his own!), so that's great too.

I agree about the dubias - and that's a common sentiment shared by us Canadians. Crickets can be such a pain sometimes, and it would be so nice to be able to offer our critters something equally nutritious but much less obnoxious.

Good to know that isn't force-feeding! I was worried that if it was, it was only adding to his stress.

I have read the second link before - scary stuff! Based on our CFIA rules and regulations, I'd be very surprised if these were the crickets I'm receiving. However, I order in bulk, and will certainly ask what species these are when I put in my order this week. I think I'll be traumatized if these are the same ones though. Based on the physical description and behavior (the ones I get are light brown in color when small, non-aggressive, none have ever eaten through boxes or bags) I'm inclined to think I just have the domestica type.

As an update - he is now off paper towel, both of my Tokays now have heat pads, and I have increased his humidity through extra misting until I can set up a misting system.

Now my only concern...is that he is indeed accidentally ingesting substrate when catching crickets. :/ (the evidence is in the stool).

Do I have to worry about impaction, or can they pass ingested substrate (mix of peat moss/eco earth) fairly well?

 

[Aimless]

next time you pull him out to check his tail wound, look closely around his vent. if he's having trouble passing it, you should irritation/redness/etc.

have you thought about using a little tupperware, like one of those plastic semi-disposable ziploc containers? Ethan recommended using those once. I used to use a small metal dish - like a cat's water dish - but switched to the thin plastic on his recommendation because it's soft. I'm not sure if your crickets would stay in without removal of a leg, but my Erzebet hunts her roaches out of one of these containers and never hurts her nose or anything. every once in awhile she upends it in her enthusiasm, but not often

Michael, what do you do for this?

 

[billewicz]

Although I like the container idea for small collections where you can feed two or three times a week, I'm feeding/overfeeding the 300 or so Tokay here once a week. Some pairs will work through 100+ crickets in a few hours, the rest take another day or two to finish them off.

I've never found Cyprus mulch in a stool or had a Tokay get impacted in almost five years. (I've seen that crappy sand from the pet stores impact Leos but that's another thread.)

 

[cassicat4]

Ok, I have him out, and his vent looks clear (no redness, swelling, irritation, etc.). His stool looked normal other than having some long stringy threads (that are present in the eco earth).

I tried feeding him from a plastic container, but he would have none of that. I don't know if I didn't get the "right" container, or if he didn't trust it, or didn't realize his food was in it (due to lack of movement of bugs), so I resorted back to feeding him the way he's used to. Is there anything else you suggest I could try?

I haven't found cyprus mulch yet, but I'm looking into it. Should I just use more peat moss in the meantime maybe?

 

[billewicz]

Cyprus is a common bedding found in pet stores here. Look again the next time you're in one. More peat should be fine.

 

[cassicat4]

Need help again.

His tail had had a big black scab over the injury as of a few days ago. Pulled him out today to check on him, and now it looks like this:







I feel so bad...

What do I do???

 

[Aimless]

how long did you continue the betadine? I'm assuming you've stopped it...I think it would be good to start cleaning it at least once a day again.

some necrotic tissue after a deep tissue injury is to be expected and I am assuming he'll lose the end of his tail from the wound down. this is distressing and ugly but neither surprising or reason for undue concern.

the thing that is distressing to me is the little black bits higher up, and a little the black margins. possibly this is scarring and he had small wounds there before, but it's also possible infection is beginning. it looks a little raw, but still no swelling.

I am not a vet - but if this were my gecko I'd resume the cleaning regimen and keep an eye on it, assuming he's eating/pooping/acting normally otherwise.

 

[cassicat4]

Thanks so much for your reply!

I stopped the Betadine once he started scabbing over. I just soaked his tail in it now and applied Polysporin. Should I be bandaging it as well? I'll continue doing this daily.

I'm ok with him losing the tip of his tail if it means better healing for him. I'm very relieved to hear it's not reason for undue concern though. Will it just fall off on its own then? Is there anything I should do to "force" it? He has feeling in most of it, with the exception of the very tip of his tail, which I'm pretty sure is dead.

I'm not sure what those are. I think cricket bites honestly. I don't know why though, they're well fed and have plenty of food available in his tank. They're superficial from what I can tell - I cleaned them with Betadine, and they appear to be only the outside of his tail. He had some there before, when he first got his injury (the day or so after) so that's why I suspect cricket-related.

He is active and eating/pooping normally. I had no reason (i.e. nothing of concern) to warrant me pulling him out today, other than a routine check.

Any reason why this would have gotten worse? Could he have been biting at the scab (possibly because it was itchy)?

 

[billewicz]

There is probably not enough blood flow to the tip so removal by a vet is probably going to be the best option.
If this is not an option, than keep a close eye on it and it may eventually sluff off.

Good luck.

 

[cassicat4]

There is probably not enough blood flow to the tip so removal by a vet is probably going to be the best option.
If this is not an option, than keep a close eye on it and it may eventually sluff off.

Good luck.

I can do a vet if it's best for him. The only reason I hesitate in any situation on a vet visit (unless it's absolutely necessary) is because the closest herp vet is 2 hours away one direction. I know the entire ordeal will be very stressful for him if I take him.

If I don't take him to the vet right now, what should I be watching for to warrant an emergency trip vs. normal healing?

And If/when I do take him, how far up should the vet amputate? Unfortunately, this vet isn't always experienced in my critters, so it helps if I can offer suggestions...

 

[billewicz]

I can do a vet if it's best for him. The only reason I hesitate in any situation on a vet visit (unless it's absolutely necessary) is because the closest herp vet is 2 hours away one direction. I know the entire ordeal will be very stressful for him if I take him.

If I don't take him to the vet right now, what should I be watching for to warrant an emergency trip vs. normal healing?

And If/when I do take him, how far up should the vet amputate? Unfortunately, this vet isn't always experienced in my critters, so it helps if I can offer suggestions...

You can most likely wait. Infection is your concern. Removing the tip just above both wounds which can be sutured closed.

Just keep an eye on it for infection or maggots.

 

[cassicat4]

You can most likely wait. Infection is your concern. Removing the tip just above both wounds which can be sutured closed.

Just keep an eye on it for infection or maggots.

Ok, I'll do that. And if I take him to the vet, I'll have them amputate at that point.

What would infection look like? I'm not experienced with Tokays, but in other species (like cresteds, gargs, and leos) the whole tail starts turning black. Would that be the case with Tokays as well?

I'll apply Betadine and Polysporin daily and hope for the best.

 

[billewicz]

No mostly a wet, puss-like look at the wound as opposed to dry and scabbed. The problem is that id it gets infected, it will work its way up the tail from the inside out. If that starts he might drop his tail at the next segment.

Generally speaking, a healthy unstressed Tokay will heal pretty fast. Festering is more common in old or very stressed animals.

 

[Aimless]

I would also not bandaged. I defer to Billewicz in all things Tokay, but that's what I would do based on my experience.

Cassi, it's not necessarily "worse". it's just working through the healing process, and as for not healing over completely, the point about blood-flow is huge. it takes a long time for reptiles to heal, in general.

 

[cassicat4]

No mostly a wet, puss-like look at the wound as opposed to dry and scabbed. The problem is that id it gets infected, it will work its way up the tail from the inside out. If that starts he might drop his tail at the next segment.

Generally speaking, a healthy unstressed Tokay will heal pretty fast. Festering is more common in old or very stressed animals.

It does look red and raw at the site of the original injury...but I can't tell if that is just the result of the scab coming off (possibly because he chewed at it?) or if it means something else. I guess if it gets worse, I'll know.

I've been told (again, regarding other gecko species) that for geckos that can drop their tails, it's best to let them drop it on their own (or with cresties and gargs, to force the drop) rather than have a vet amputate, as an amputation is more stressful for the gecko, plus isn't as clean/healthy as a drop. Is that true for Tokays as well? I'd definitely prefer him to drop it at a segment rather than have it forcibly amputated. Are Tokays good at "knowing" when to drop their tails, and if so, would this mean the problem has been dealt with, or could the infection be further up still?

He has been healthy, and unstressed I believe. His color is still good, and he has been eating/pooping/active. And of course, he is young.

I have tried Googling pictures of necrotic tail and tail infections in geckos, but all I can find is related to Leos and Rhacs, which by your description sounds like is much different than Tokays.

Do crickets eat away at gecko injuries?

 

[cassicat4]

I would also not bandaged. I defer to Billewicz in all things Tokay, but that's what I would do based on my experience.

Cassi, it's not necessarily "worse". it's just working through the healing process, and as for not healing over completely, the point about blood-flow is huge. it takes a long time for reptiles to heal, in general.

Ok, I'll leave him unbandaged. Should I put him back on paper towel then? And what do I do if he is biting away at the injury?

That's good to know, because it looks pretty bad to me (but I'm not experienced in reptile injuries either. He is my first). How long should I expect it to take to heal? And what would be a positive sign of healing?

I worry about him a lot, especially since this is so new to me.