2nd Leo, 1st time raising baby

[Elizabeth Freer]

Cornbread's Diet: Eats 5-??? smaller crickets each night – gut loaded and powdered calcium w/D3

1 - When feeding my baby, how often do his crickets need dusted? I have a UVA day bulb, but no UVB, so to compensate I'm using Zoo Med Repti Calcium with D3. My adult has always had his crickets dusted in this, and it works great for him. However, I don't know how often a little 3-4 month old needs it.

I would only lightly calcium/D3 dust Cornbread's crickets 2x per week. I would also only lightly calcium/D3 dust Gabby's crickets 2x per week until you begin the beardie cricket diet.

You and Gabby sound extremely stressed. Stress does no one no good. Leos react as well to all changes.

You are always free to return to what you did in the past with Gabby.

Did the hornworms arrive? Did you get the adult beardie food? Have you ever tried clear glass feeding dishes for the crickets like this:

 

[kholtme]

Yeah if Gabby lived on sand for over ten years, and you think that is the root of her problems, try switching back. If she lived on sand that long without problems, she should be fine. I just wouldnt recommend it for Cornbread. And if you post pictures on here of Gabbys cage, be prepared for people to comment on the sand

 

[NeoLeo87]

Thanks kholtme and Elizabeth for the responses. Last night I let things get to my head (also due to lack of sleep and hard hours at work). I don't mean to sound so brash or immature, it was just a really bad night. I still feel bad for Gabby.

I would only lightly calcium/D3 powder Cornbread's crickets 2x per week. I would also only calcium/D3 dust Gabby's crickets 2x per week until you begin the beardie cricket diet.

It's good you caught me on that, but I already made those changes. I'm going by your weekly schedule.

You and Gabby sound extremely stressed. Stress does no one no good. Leos react as well to all changes.

You are always free to return to what you did in the past with Gabby.

I think I will... This carpet thing is really bothering him. He did fine with half carpet / half sand, but no sand at all really bums him out. I think that's a big reason for his lack of eating too.

Did the hornworms arrive? Did you get the adult beardie food? Have you ever tried clear glass feeding dishes for the crickets like this

1. Not yet. I'm still waiting. I think they just shipped two days ago.
2. I should have the adult beardie food in 5 days.
3. I will try to get a glass dish...if there's ANY. Finding essentials for leopard geckos in my city seems impossible. :roll: Would you recommend http://www.amazon.com/Ultimate-Gecko-Ledge-Magnetic-Feeder/dp/B00B5I7CO8/ref=sr_1_2?s=pet-supplies&ie=UTF8&qid=1428465455&sr=1-2&keywords=gecko+bowl this by chance?

GABBY UPDATE: I'm not going to try any crazy methods to get Gabby to eat tonight. I think he's still stressed...so I'm going to let him rest and just put a few crickets in, see if he eats any. At least he's been defecating and eating, albeit less than usual.

As Elizabeth said, I'm going to assume that switching Gabby off sand might be the culprit for his loss of appetite. I am moving him back on sand TOMORROW!

I will be getting a new warm dry hideout for Gabby also, but...I'm prepared for that to stress him out as well. On top of being used to sand, Gabby has ALWAYS had this http://www.amazon.com/Exo-Terra-Rep...584610&sr=1-1&keywords=exo+terra+reptile+hide as his warm dry hideout.


Problem is...this is too big to add a warm moist hide. I will go ahead and try a medium hideout, which Cornbread has, but I sure hope he isn't further stressed.

CORNBREAD UPDATE: Nothing new, and that's a good thing! Little Cornbread's nose is healing up (from the rug burn he received due to nasty reptile carpet substrate), and he's eating aplenty.


My only real concerns are for Gabby. Gotta keep an eye on him. I sure hope he can bounce back after all the changes I forced on him.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I would make sure each enclosure has all three hides including a warm moist hide. Leos use their moist hides for hydration as well as for shedding.

1. How humid is New Orleans?
2. How humid is the room where the vivaria sit?
3. Does it vary seasonally with AC?
4. How long did Gabby have half sand/half carpet?
5. How long only carpet?

I found the glass dish I use at a kitchen store. Came in a 4 pack. Click: 1 cup Kitchen Storage Red Lid

Click on this picture (shared in post #42 too). Then you'll see the glass dish I use. By clicking on the photo, you'll enlarge it.

 

[NeoLeo87]

I would make sure each enclosure has all three hides including a warm moist hide. Leos use their moist hides for hydration as well as for shedding.

Right. I just need to find a new warm dry hideout because, as I mention in post #44, the large hideout Gabby had all his life is too big for a moist hideout. Therefore I have to get a new dry one as well.

1. How humid is New Orleans?
2. How humid is the room where the vivaria sit?
3. Does it vary seasonally with AC?
4. How long did Gabby have half sand/half carpet?
5. How long only carpet?

1. It's incredibly humid in New Orleans (we're near the coastline). It's 50% humidity, and this time of year it's in the 70s-80s.
2. I have no idea, nor am I sure how to check the humidity specifically of my bedroom, but according to Cornbread's tank he usually has 40-50% humidity without any form of moisture other than his water dish.
3. Not sure what you mean by "with air conditioning" when you ask about seasons, but the only range of season change we get here is summer (really really hot) to winter (really cold). I try to keep the AC at around 69 or 70 degrees, and keep the tanks low 70s on the cool side and high 70s / low 80s on the warm side.
4. Gabby had half sand/half carpet for 10 months.
5. He went on full carpet since beginning of March (1 month) and around the time he's been showing stress and loss of appetite.

I found the glass dish I use at a kitchen store. Came in a 4 pack.

I definitely want to get a glass dish today.
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UPDATES: I GOT HORNWORMS TODAY.

As you may guess, New Orleans is a very hot/humid place, so I've tried to put their container in a cooking pot with a pack of ice. Hopefully the material of the pot will help retain the cold, without it being too cold for the worms. I will try to get a small cooler today to put them in.

And tonight I will try feeding them to both Cornbread and Gabby. This will be the first time Gabby has had anything besides crickets. Get excited, kids.

I also got Reptivite withOUT D3 today. A big bottle. I won't start the geckos on it until Monday (as the weekly schedule recommends).

QUESTIONS TO USERS:
1. If a gecko has NEVER been given multivitamin supplements...how do you know when it is safe to start? Will the introduction of Reptivite to an old leo be harmful in any way?
2. What is the best form of moisture you recommend for a moist hideout?
3. What is your technique for getting a gecko to eat from a glass bowl (when they never had one before)?
4. How often can leo's be fed hornworms? Is it only used for getting fussy geckos to eat, or can they be a regular diet alongside crickets and other insects?

 

[kholtme]

Im glad you are feeling less stressed.

1. I assume it is best to start as soon as possible. (Im still new to this so i could be wrong)
2.I love eco earth. It holds moisture longer than paper towels, taste bad to geckos, and if it does get eaten, its easier to pass than moss.
3. I dont know, i dont use bowls, but see through bowls are important so they see movement.
4. Hornworms are great feeders, they are full of moisture. They can be feed often, but variety of bugs is best!

What Elizabeth was trying to get across with the A/C question is because A/C will dry the air out because it removes moisture from the air. So humidity should drop while your air conditioner is on.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

What do Gabby and Cornbread think about hornworms?

I got my Hornworms from Great Lakes.

They suggest turning the container upside down so that the poop collects on the "bottom"/lid.

• Then elevate container with a couple pencils
• Remove feces daily
• Temps should go no lower than 55 F. That keeps hornworms from mushrooming in size!
• Hornworms add good variety to your leos' diets. They are excellent calcium sources and provide high moisture.
  
  

  Partial hornworm analysis
  

  • Protein: 9%
  • Fat: 3.07%
  • Calcium: 46.4mg/100mg
  • Moisture: 85%

• Other tips in Hornworm Guidelines

A/C and winter heat dries things out. 40-50% New Orleans RH in cages is great. ++ RH in warm humid hide.

 

[NeoLeo87]

What do Gabby and Cornbread think about hornworms?

I got my Hornworms from Great Lakes.

I also got them from Great Lakes. Gabby really liked his first one...but he ate a big one and he hasn't eaten since he got it yesterday evening. The last one I tried to feed him tonight gave a bite on his nose, and he lost all interest. :/

Cornbread liked the smaller one he got last night and the one tonight. Then again, Cornbread will eat anything haha.

[*]Other tips in Hornworm Guidelines[/LIST]

Yes I read your care sheet on hornworms. It does not answer my question in post #46. "How often can leo's be fed hornworms? Is it only used for getting fussy geckos to eat, or can they be a regular diet alongside crickets and other insects?" I'm still curious about this.

Also thanks kholtme for the recommendation on eco earth. This weekend I'll try it (if I can just get that new warm dry hide so the moist one will fit).

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

UPDATES: 4/10/15

As of yesterday, Gabby has his sand back.


I think he likes it, since this is what he calls home. He seems more active than before. I had to turn the UTH down though...it got 100 degrees beneath his sand! I had some difficulty figuring out the best placement of the rod to check temperatures... What is the best way to check temperature when a UTH operates beneath a tank that has sand substrate?

Here is where I had it when it wasn't working properly. I have since placed it under the sand that is in Gabby's warm hideout. He likes to dig around and make a bed, but I'll assume the rod won't bother him (unless someone has better ideas).


Questions about Feeding Bowls: Here is the bowl I got, which I tried to replicate based on Elizabeth's.

However I have some concerns. How do you keep the bowl from tipping over when geckos eat? Seriously, my Gabby is a BIG boy. And this is NOT a heavy cup. Also, is this bowl too tall for a gecko? I'm not sure what would be wrong with buying what I posted earlier: http://www.amazon.com/Magnaturals-Gecko-Ledge-Earth-Magnetic/dp/B00481DECS/ref=sr_1_5?ie=UTF8&qid=1428647386&sr=8-5&keywords=feeding+bowl+gecko

I understand they need to see what's in the bowl...but how do you get it from toppling?

More updates on Gabby and Cornbread to come. Gabby hasn't pooped yet...but I assume it's going to be a big one!!!

 

[kholtme]

I have never used a bowl so i cant help you there, but maybe place some rocks (boil them to clean) to help support the bowl. It looks kinda tall, but it depends on how your gecko reacts to it. Elizabeth uses a rock as a ramp into her bowl. I know that this is get in the way and defeat the purpose of the glass bowl, but if it isnt surrounded on all sides it could work.

I hope the sand isnt calcium sand!! This will make the gecko want to lick the sand. Also i recommend you either feed from tongs or a bowl every time with the sand tank, and i wouldnt put the bowl on the sand side to prevent any sand getting kicked into the bowl and digested.

I think your probe is fine, you dont want it buried in the sand, but to be resting on top. What is your thermostat set too? What is the temp on the surface of the sand inside the warm dry hide? The sand on the bottom should be warmer, there isnt anything you can do about that, but you want the surface of the sand to be 88-92 degrees. If your leo digs, it should realize it is getting warmer and move if needed.

I dont think you can over feed with hornworms, but variety in diet is best!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Bryan ~

Let's rejoice in the fact that both leos ate hornworms. :cheer: :yahoo: :cheer:

I place my leo's 8 ounce bowl in the front corner of the cool side. I use a rock ramp up to the lip of the bowl for easy access. The corner glass and the rock ramp stabilize the dish well. My 70 gram leo figured out how to climb the ramp to get her bugs and sometimes worms.

I linked a bowl (Anchor brand) that has perpendicular sides. Even that does not keep all insects and worms contained.

Those feeding ledges are designed for day geckos and crested geckos. They are adhered to the side of the cage higher up than the ground. Often they contain a powdered diet that is mixed with water. The bowls look very small. I'm quite sure the feeders would escape.

After a leo reaches 1 yo, daily feedings aren't recommended. Try 3x per week. Just imagine the size of Gabby's stomach as compared to a "large" hornworm. Hornworms can be a regular diet alongside crickets and other insects.

As long as Gabby and Cornbread aren't overweight, let them be the judges about how many. How many depends upon the size of the hornworm. There is no exact answer.

A digital thermometer with a probe verifies the thermostat's setting. Tape both probes together and place on the top of the sand underneath the warm dry hide.

 

[NeoLeo87]

I hope the sand isnt calcium sand!! This will make the gecko want to lick the sand.

Haha you're going to freak when I tell you, it is Zoo Med calcium sand. But before you go posting all the warning signs, remember that you told me two things: 1) if Gabby has been on sand [this one in particular] for ten years, he should be okay, and 2) be prepared for people to comment on the substrate. It's good of you to look out for Gabby, but this is his home. He's been healthy with it, so that's what we're sticking to.

I think your probe is fine, you dont want it buried in the sand, but to be resting on top.

Hmm, are you sure about that? If it rests on top, inside his hideout...he's going to be laying with it. That's going to be an intrusion on his hideout and his place of safety. Surely there's a better way.

I am keeping his temperatures in check. He's doing fine right now. Just waiting for him to poop the giant hornworm he ate!

 

[LEOPARD1]

HornWorms are like pulling a Dubia Roach fresh out of its molt, it may look big but they go down smooth. My Geckos love them!

You have asked many good questions, even though Elizabeth has given you a great amount of attention and info I would read her "Caresheet" I think if you have never kept LG's or are just starting its a fail-safe husbandry guide. After you get some experience and if your wiling to do research in your spare time you can tailor your own "husbandry techniques" uniquely to you. After about 3 months of hardcore research I made my husbandry my own. It still contains the basic tenants of keeping LG's but with what I found has worked for me is more in the realm of "Opinions" and "Styles". I always stick to the basic concrete facts.

Dont be afraid to experiment (gently). You may get to the point where you wont have to hassle with dusting period and can let your LG's supplement themselves if you are confident in your mind and heart its what works for you. It amazing what these little guys are capable of..very smart.

I went from Venomous Snakes to Leopard Geckos and I would never turn back.

Good Luck.

 

[kholtme]

The probe wont intrude his hide out or his safety. He wont realize what it is. It would be no different than a small rock. It doesnt move so it wont bother him.

I was just giving you the warnings of calcium sand! If thats what you want to stick with that is your choice. Just wanted to let you know.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Jurassic Sand is a quartz sand which contains no calcium: Home

 

[mecoat]

He won't be bothered by the probe. When I changed Daff's viv, from the old to the new, and was sliding in the probe, he saw it and started to hunt it (it was moving, so it must be food...!), once I stopped moving it, he lost interest and has ignored it ever since.

 

[NeoLeo87]

Thanks LEOPARD@1, kholtme, mecoat, and Elizabeth for added thoughts! Below are my updates so far.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
The crickets have their bearded dragon food (per Elizabeth's request)! I've had them on it for a few days now. They also get collard greens. This looks about right, right?



GABBY UPDATES: Poor Gabby... He's had so much change to his vivarium, only to have it changed back again. I hope he's doing better on sand, but I can't quite tell. His behavior is still lethargic, though when he is active I think he does so while I'm sleeping.

I also can't get him to hunt like he used to! He's now gone another 4 days without eating. And Elizabeth, Gabby has NO INTEREST in horn worms anymore. I would say part of it is due to Gabby not wanting to hunt what doesn't move fast enough...but that's not the case. He ate one before, very fast, and now he won't touch them ever since. Big waste of 20 dollars, sadly.

And while we're at it...just how in the hell do you get horn worms from their container to the vivarium? Sometimes I have to poke them to get them to move onto a stick for me, but it's mind-numbingly frustrating.

So, horn worms didn't work to feed Gabby. Anyone got a plan B?

CORNBREAD UPDATES: Cornbread is doing good. He got a new moist hide! kholtme, I really like that hideout you recommended. It works great. I'm going to get a larger one for Gabby (if they come in that size). Humidity holds well, and Cornbread goes into it alot. Just see here!

On the down side, it seems Cornbread has recently been scared of me. He gets scared easily, even when I try to feed him! However, if I take away his warm hide and make him interact with my hand, he does fine. I guess I'll just have to keep showing him that I'm not a threat until he gets used to me. He still likes to climb my arm, just isn't quite sure of me yet.

 

[Cymmie]

NeoLeo, I haven't read all this thread yet so bear with me as I suggest feeders for Gabby, is he addicted to a certain type a feeder?

I would suggest silkworms rather than hornworms, they don't bite and stay smaller, you almost get the same amount of hydration and more calcium.

Have you tried dubia? I am sure you have... lol, there are also phoenix worms, which move a lot but he would need more of them to satisfy his appetite. But the problem with feeding too many soft-bodied insects is that it can give the leos runny stool or diaharrea... (however you spell that lol) So even if you supplement with a few mealworrms (dare I say it) or small superworms (considering they have a better chitin to meat ratio and less fattyness) and the smaller superworms don't cause hazards, they are like eating a healthier mealworm in my opinion.

 

[NeoLeo87]

is he addicted to a certain type a feeder?

YES. He has had crickets for 10+ years. The only other thing he ate (rarely fed) was wax worms, but I quickly learned they were like crack for him, so I stopped. All he's ever eaten were crickets.

I would suggest silkworms rather than hornworms, they don't bite and stay smaller, you almost get the same amount of hydration and more calcium.

You are absolutely right about that, haha. Horn worms do bite, and they bit Gabby's nose once. I think that's why he doesn't like them. :/

Have you tried dubia? I am sure you have... lol, there are also phoenix worms, which move a lot but he would need more of them to satisfy his appetite.

I have not tried dubia roaches yet. Problem is, the ones at the petstore are either too small or too big. I guess I'll buy small ones and wait til they grow to the right size? I also know nothing about phoenix worms, but the movement sounds like a good thing!

Pardon me as I'm still very new to all these variety of feeders. I sure hope I can find one that works for Gabby besides crickets. (He's getting too old to chase them anyway).

Questions about silkworms:
1. Where do you prefer to buy silkworms?
2. Is there a care sheet you recommend for husbandry regarding silkworms?
3. Do silkworms move more than horn worms? Gabby will NOT eat food if it moves too fast, or too slow...but just right.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Bryan ~

Click here: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...feeding-issues/68584-silkworm-guidelines.html

There's a "ton" of silkie info right there including picture's of Hilde's leos eating silkworms. Scroll to post #2 for very recent info from Cymmie's posts. If you scroll to the very last post on that thread, 3 USA sources of silkworms are linked.

 

[Cymmie]

Silkworms move the same way hornworms do they are just much smaller and easier to handle. They are also easier to breed than hornworms so if they end up getting to big all you have to do is breed them and you can raise your own stock. Which is what I do. I end up buying my stock of silkworms, if I need some fresh blood or need run out of eggs too fast, from a wholesaler in florida, however that would probably be far too many silkworms for just two leos. Their smallest amount is 500 worms... I have a lot of mouths to feed XD more than is on my signature.

Dubia's can grow rather fast with the right heat and environment. I would try ordering some from online, where you can get the perfect size and a good number and then try them out. I raise my dubias in a opaque
rubbermaid bin, with a hole cut out of the bottom and metal screening hot glued into the bottom (make sure the screening is inside the tub) to let the frass and small pieces of food fall through. I then put that tub inside another of the same sized tub where it can easily catch the frass and such. All my roach bins have holes cut out of the top with cloth bug screening hot glued to the top. For air circulation. They also need a heat pad, egg crates and a healthy diet. Other than that they are probably the easiest feeder to breed and I breed a lot XD

I gutload all my species of roaches with a homemade gutload, high in plant protein and only plant protein. I NEVER suggest feeding feeder roaches any sort of meat, such as fish food or mammalian meat products like dog or cat food. I also do a wet gutload which consists of oranges, mangos, bananas, and papaya. Also whatever other leafy greens are sitting around the house that are too close to going bad for us to eat but they can still eat.Dubias must be either fed one at a time or in a deep glass bowl. So that they can't climb out but the leos can still get to them.

Phoenix worms are also called calci worms and can usually be bought at Petco or also online.