Leo acting strange...

[RyoDai89]

So!
Another quick update!


Now, I'd intended for this tank to be used for a snake I have in a ten gallon as an upgrade... But I do have 20 gallon tank. Unfortunately, because of the type of snake it was going to be used for, it's a high/tall... Is this acceptable? As I cooouuullldddd just hold out and buy another at a later date (he didn't need the upgrade now, but maybe in some months to a year), is the 20 high a-ok? Or should I keep it for the snake and still try for the 30 on CL?
If it is fine that'd be perfect! As that's less money to spend in such short time... where as I could just wait some months to buy another 'snake tank'. If not then...



Edit:
Not sure exactly but I think the dimensions are 24 1/2 - 12 1/2 - 16 and some odd... I'll have to measure it as this is all bu memory really...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

A 20 gallon LONG (30 x 12 x 12 inches) is what you want for a leo. A 20 gallon high/regular is difficult to heat and lacks necessary ground space.

 

[RyoDai89]

Yeah, I figured as much... I knew they needed more foot print as they're terrestrial... couldn't help but hold out hope.
It will take sometime to find the tank then. Shooting for a 30 as, personally I think that is agood size foot print, and on top of that I've only ever seen 20 talls where I'm at. Both in stores, and on CL.

Ah well.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

A 20 gallon LONG (30 x 12 x 12 inches) is what you want for a leo. A 20 gallon high/regular is difficult to heat and lacks necessary ground space.

Yeah, I figured as much... I knew they needed more foot print as they're terrestrial... couldn't help but hold out hope.
It will take sometime to find the tank then. Shooting for a 30 as, personally I think that is agood size foot print, and on top of that I've only ever seen 20 talls where I'm at. Both in stores, and on CL.

Ah well.

You're definitely correct about the footprint. I'd consider a 30 x 12 x 12 inch a minimum for a leo. If you have a giant morph, then a 40 gallon breeder tank is best. Keep it short (12 or so inches), though, unless you wish to build ramps and a second floor.

 

[kholtme]

I got my 40 gallon breeder off of CL for $30 and it was in perfect shape. You may want to be careful though because if the owner of the tank used the tank for a reptile and it died from a disease it is possible that the tank can carry that disease to your leopard gecko. Diseases like crypto cant be cleaned out. So just ask the seller why they are getting rid of the tank and what happened to their animal. Be sure to clean it out good with a 10% bleach and 90% water mix, then rinse out well with water and let it dry for 24 hours to let the bleach air out.

 

[RyoDai89]

So, UPDATE!
Hopefully the last though... as far as this issue being concerned...


Yesterday, after a week with no heat lamp and just the mat, it finally ate again after we switched back to the light (as to what the vet told us to do on the phone). It didn't eat much, but it DID eat quite alot of the calcium in the little cap we had in there!



But TODAY! We took my sister's gecko to the vet! It's a girl, for starters!

They were going to check for parasites... or a stool sample... but said anything like that and crypto? ... Were very short on his list. Saying that, to him all signs point towards the calcium deficiency. And that he felt very confident that that was the problem. He also said, that because he could tell we'd gotten it in so early on, the he's very confident she'll make a quick recovery. And that she'd even start walking normally and eating crickets again in a few weeks time. He also gave her a shot to boost the calcium too. But other than that, unless other 'symptoms' occur he believes she is otherwise healthy and should be a-okay just given some time.

Planning on getting the digital thermometer tomorrow, and a scale (thermostat will have to wait until the next paycheck as that vet wasn't cheap). According to him though, when asking about the lamp vs the mat, he said that in his opinion it was okay to use just the lamp. That either were fine provided it got the job done, like heating the one side of the tank. That it didn't matter which one you used provided you knew EXACTLY how warm it was. That we could use either, and that it was just a matter of what seemed to work best. And since we've put her lamp back up she did seem to perk up so... if he says it's alright I suppose we'll just use the lamp for now?
He also said the ten gallon was fine provided we could manage the hot and cool side. Which is great, but I still plan on getting a bigger tank just because it looks so cramped. I just don't need to be in alot of rush to do so now.

Other than that though, he believes with the shot, and it just now eating the calcium and us 'catching' it so quickly, that she should make a full recovery...

So here's hoping that happens!



Thanks again SO SO SOOOOOOOOO much though for all the people that responded!!!!!!!!!! It was a big help as well!!!!!!!!



(And in an ironic twist of fate, it was the same guy who treated one of my parakeets around 4-5 years ago...)

 

[RyoDai89]

UPDATE!!!

So!
First and foremost... we've since upgraded my sisters leopard gecko to a 20 long. (Got a great deal on it over a 30 gallon). She now has a lot more room, we got rid of the sticks... and she still uses the carpet. And she's got a hot hide spot, a cool hide spot, and in the middle a hide spot with a wet paper towel in it...

Still not eating though...

We still use the lamp with purple light as the vet recommended. The wet paper towel is in a hide now (we'd thought maybe it was too humid?), and lately, we've been told to try force feeding it.
Can't say it's fun, but... weight has been the same. He's gained maaaaaaybe a smidge? But not much. And he's not under weight/lost any at all. Poop looks normal, but yeah, still won't eat.

We've tried crickets, mealworms, waxworms, baby food, the stuff we have to force feed it- nothing is working.
It still sits in the same hide on the hot side. And I firmly believe that, if the same hide were on the cool side, she'd be over there.


Any other ideas on what may be wrong or anything to try to get her to eat on her own again? I'm at my wits end and find it awful that it might possibly have to be force fed the rest of it's life...
I should note that it's extremely tame. Has no problem being taken out and chilling with you on the couch. It just DOESN'T want to EAT?
And it's tail is fat too so... yeah, I'm at a lost...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi ~

How is your leo doing now?

One thing about only using overhead heat is that is dries things out.

Did you get a digital thermometer with probe? Knowing the exact temperatures is the bottom line of gecko care, not only leopard gecko care.

It's a good idea to keep the warm moist hide on the warm end of a leo's vivarium.

 

[RyoDai89]

Ah! Thanks for asking about her!

Still not eating though... She hasn't lost any weight, but then we've been told to pretty much force feed her this brown stuff to entice her to eat and... still, no go.

We've tried loads of different insects, and still nothing.


We did get a digital thermometer though!
Her hot side is around 90. Middle of the tank is 80s, and the cool side is in 70 range. For a while, the fan made a draft (that's why there was a few up and down readings...) so we put a coat over one side of the cage. And since then, shes been coming out more and drinking water but still won't eat. Haven't seen her eat anymore calcium in a while either...


We've been putting the moist hide right in the middle. Should we move it to the warm side then?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Ah! Thanks for asking about her!

Still not eating though... She hasn't lost any weight, but then we've been told to pretty much force feed her this brown stuff to entice her to eat and... still, no go.

We've tried loads of different insects, and still nothing.


We did get a digital thermometer though!
Her hot side is around 90. Middle of the tank is 80s, and the cool side is in 70 range. For a while, the fan made a draft (that's why there was a few up and down readings...) so we put a coat over one side of the cage. And since then, shes been coming out more and drinking water but still won't eat. Haven't seen her eat anymore calcium in a while either...


We've been putting the moist hide right in the middle. Should we move it to the warm side then?

Yes, please move her moist hide all the way to the warm side.

Drinking water on her own may be a good sign!

I'm glad that you bought the thermometer. Try covering the sides and back of the vivarium with paper towels, brown paper bags, and/or cardboard to provide more privacy and less stress.

Plain (no D3) calcium carbonate? She really should not have 24/7 access to plain calcium carbonate either. :/ Calcium needs to be taken with food for proper absorption.

How about pictures of you leo (the whole gecko) and your vivarium? A video will show us how she is walking and whether MBD is an issue. Have you ever given her calcium with D3 and/or multivitamins? If so, which brands and types?

Please tell us exactly what you are force feeding. Oxbow manufactures a powdered food call Carnivore Care. That's what best in situations like this.

 

[RyoDai89]

Will do!
Originally, we were afraid it was too humid... you think it maybe too dry? We have a thermometer, do you think we need the one that reads humidity too?


I hope so! She's been alot more active too!


Will do! Anything that'll get her to eat!


Really? I think it it does have D3... but after they gave her the calcium shot at the vet, they told us to put it in there since she wasn't eating and she needed to get some in her system (it's in a little cap). She licked it for a while after that... about a couple of weeks. The shot really perked her up for some time (but she still hid. You could tell though that her walking was better within the week.) So, she'd eat the powder but wouldn't drink or eat. Whether we powdered her food or not. Now, she won't eat or lick the calcium and hasn't for a while (over a month and a half) but she drinks now (ever since we put the coat over the cage for the fan.)
We were also told to mix the calcium with the brown food stuff that we have to force feed her too... So we know she's getting some atleast...

Pretty sure the brand is Flukers... When we took her to the vet, he thought it was early MBD, so he gave her a shot. She got better as far as walking and stuff goes, and started moving around so we assumed she got better... He agreed at the time. She acts perfectly fine. Walks around, explores... still will not eat. And we've tried every insect available... Again, she hasn't lost weight, but I'm too too afraid of stopping the force feeding though I know she loathes it, as do I, because I'm afraid she'll never eat and die... It's really stressing.


The stuff we have to give her is Zilla Jump-Start Caloric Supplement and Appetite Stimulant. Which was what the vet told us to give her. Just like it says, it's supposed to entice them to eat, not be there main staple. Still, she acts either not interested in the insects we drop in, or runs away...


The whole thing sucks. I'm literally out of ideas on what to do. It can't be healthy to be force fed the rest of her life. Do you think maybe letting her go, say, a week would make her hungry? Or worse? (Others told me to let her 'fast', that she'd eat if she were hungry and to just keep offering her food... I'm afraid she might refuse to eat till' her dying breath )


* I should note, her last 2 sheds were okay. She shed fine. But there was one time when, we found little bits of shed in the cage, but not the bigger pieces we're used to. Maybe she ate it? I hope so.


We also plan on buying tile instead of using the repti-carpet for a number of reasons. The main one being that the 'food' likes to crawl under it, forever lost...
So, we've recently put mealworms in a little cap so they can't crawl out... she still ignores them...


Also, she appears to be pooping fine. Looks normal as ever...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

......The stuff we have to give her is Zilla Jump-Start Caloric Supplement and Appetite Stimulant. Which was what the vet told us to give her. Just like it says, it's supposed to entice them to eat, not be there main staple. Still, she acts either not interested in the insects we drop in, or runs away......

Let's get some textured ceramic tile. Did you get a larger vivarium?

Please post a picture of your leo.

:shock: I'm shocked at your vet's recommendations! Honestly, I'd find a better vet.

She needs a balanced food now that she's not eating insects.

That stuff is horrible! I'm looking at the label right now:
The first ingredient on the list is corn syrup!!!
0.68% protein
34.5% fat

If you wish to help your leopard gecko, please order Oxbow's Carnivore Care off Amazon. It is a balanced diet. That is the best assist food available in the USA. It is a white powder you mix with water. Keep the powder in the refrigerator (not the freezer) when not in use.

What exact digital thermometer did you buy?

The more precise you are in your answers, the quicker we can help. I am very sorry that I did not know until right now what you've been feeding your leo. No wonder she still does not want to eat.

I would not keep any brand of calcium with D3 in the vivarium 24/7. There is too much chance for overdose! Too much D3 can cause problems just like too litle vitamin D3: MBD symptoms either way.

 

[RyoDai89]

She's in a 20 long now.



I'll have to try tomorrow... It's really hard trying to get stuff from the phone to the comp (since it's not my phone :/)


They're one of the only ones around here... They said the reason it had alot of fat/sugar/and the like was because it was supposed to make it eat. That it wasn't meant for it to be used as the staple. Just to get something in it (it'd been literally a month before we started it where it didn't eat.) And that she needed it to gain weight. I don't think it was supposed to be used this long (it's basically junk food) but he doesn't want us using actually food staple because he didn't want it to rely on it and never try to eat live prey again... We really need her to start eating on her own. For a number of reasons. Mainly that we're afraid she'll get hurt every time we do it....


I can't remember... Not gonna lie, it was a cheap one off ebay. Paid less than 5$ on the bid... I suppose I could get another...


Yeah... again, this was supposed to 'jump start' her hunger... Give her a little, and then she was supposed to suddenly have an appetite... Doesn't look like it's happening at all...


Ah! Didn't know you could overdose on it !


Have you heard of leo's going off food? Do you know how long?
Do you think letting her go off for a little bit (not feeding her the stuff) would make her eventually eat again...?
As I really don't like the idea of force feeding her the rest of her life...

 

[RyoDai89]

I've got photos now... trying to get video...

 

[RyoDai89]

Forgot pic of the tank... But it's a 20 long, heat lamp on one side, with caves on each side (hot and cool sides) with the moist hide in the middle.
She's always in the hot hide though. Always. It's her go to place...

Checked temps, it'd about 80 in the middle. 95 directly under the lamp on the hot hide, and 75-80 on the cool.
Lifting the tank, even though it's a lamp, it's pretty hot underneath. Especially the bottom of the glass.

I want to add, the cave on the hot side she's always in, it doubles as a water bowl... Could that be the problem? Water evaporating and all.


Video here too! Sorry for the lame music but I needed to cut out my sister screaming on her game...

 

[RyoDai89]

Ah! Here's the tank!


Pleeeeeaaaase excuse both, the poop in the top right hand corner as we're getting tile so....
And! The cap of calcium which has turned into a pile and smear as, my sister insisted on helping and made one hell of a mess >:I!


Again, she is pooping, but no idea as to how... possibly the force fed stuff? We feed her that every 2-3 days...




(Black thing is the old thermometer on top moist hide... It's basically trash. I always forget to take it out...)

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thanks for all these shares. I love that music.

1. Did her improvement walking continue after the vet's shot of calcium and the calcium with D3 that she licked from the bowl inside the vivarium?
2. :yahoo: on the 20 gallon long! You done good on that.
3. Leos like anywhere from 40-60% humidity. One indicator of sufficient humidity is good sheds.
4. Let's move the moist hide to the warm side of the enclosure. It should be near the warm dry hide in order for droplets/condensation to form inside.
5. Let's try hornworms and Oxbow's Carnivore Care. I spoke with the Oxbow vet a couple months ago. He told me that vets can order Carnivore Care from Oxbow. Then you could pick it up from your vet. That's the only assist food I'd use. (I totally agree that Zilla's Jumpstart is junk food.)
   Click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...eeding-issues-/68585-hornworm-guidelines.html
6. I'm linking a thread where 2 GU members tell how much hornworms helped their leos get back on food.
   Click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...ing-issues-/78534-feed-hand-6.html#post448803

 

[RyoDai89]

1) A little. She used to slide her head along the ground... She's picked it up more since, but I'm sure it could be better... It's still a little low.


2) Ah! I should try to post a new pick! We just changed to tile. Got her a new hide to put on the heated side too. And moved the other hide over (the one she's always in) incase that hide that doubles as the water bowl was causing too much humidity... since it sat right under the heat lamp.


3) Should we move the hide back over then...? I thought too much humidity would cause a respiratory infection? And that they needed it drier... Thought maybe that was the issue...


4) Gotcha!


5) Where could I get the hornworms from though? And would she really eat it over waxworms? (I thought those were pretty much the go to to getting leos to eat...)


6) Ah! But how did they get them to eat it? I'm sure if she would just start to eat, she'd get her appetite back. But I can't get her even interested in anything...


Here are the new pic... As you can see, she still prefers the old hide with water bowl. Even if it is on the cool side now...






I also have another question... When I checked the temps, the thermometer was right under the light. Directly so, in the hide. So I'm worried that it isn't heating the floor per say and is just heating the air...
I ask this because have a day bulb. And it'll definitely heat the floor as I use them for my snakes. Should I put that in during the day? (It'll get about 90+ degrees) and just switch the black one in at night (that's the one we've been leaving on 24/7.)? I think the black bulb gets pretty hot, but it might not be as hot as it needs... So I was wondering if it was okay if the tank was a few degrees cooler at night, compared to day, since they are nocturnal... And that maybe he does need it hotter during the day?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

1) A little. She used to slide her head along the ground... She's picked it up more since, but I'm sure it could be better... It's still a little low.


2) Ah! I should try to post a new pick! We just changed to tile. Got her a new hide to put on the heated side too. And moved the other hide over (the one she's always in) incase that hide that doubles as the water bowl was causing too much humidity... since it sat right under the heat lamp.

:yahoo: on the tile. It looks very nice.

One problem with your new hide is the huge opening/door. Perhaps you could exchange it for an Exo Terra medium cave? Hides with small openings give leos more security.


3) Should we move the hide back over then...? I thought too much humidity would cause a respiratory infection? And that they needed it drier... Thought maybe that was the issue...

Too much humidity can cause a respiratory infection if the hide is not warm. You don't want your leo cool and moist.


4) Gotcha!


5) Where could I get the hornworms from though? And would she really eat it over waxworms? (I thought those were pretty much the go to to getting leos to eat...)

Scroll through the Hornworm Guidelines. 4 sources are listed. Make sure the company includes enough food to keep them alive for 3 weeks. Keep the extra food in the cooler with the hornworms, not the refrigerator. If you keep the food in the refrigerator the food will get too hard for hornworms to eat.

You are mistaken about waxworms. Waxworms are very u-n-h-e-a-l-t-h-y. They are basically all fat! Hornworms are healthy. Their nutrition is listed on the guidelines.

6) Ah! But how did they get them to eat it? I'm sure if she would just start to eat, she'd get her appetite back. But I can't get her even interested in anything...

Please read the second link I shared for firsthand accounts how both posters fed their leo's hornworms. For Todd's specific thread, just do a search. Generally my posts are pretty complete.


Here are the new pic... As you can see, she still prefers the old hide with water bowl. Even if it is on the cool side now...


View attachment 35730



I also have another question... When I checked the temps, the thermometer was right under the light. Directly so, in the hide. So I'm worried that it isn't heating the floor per say and is just heating the air...
I ask this because have a day bulb. And it'll definitely heat the floor as I use them for my snakes. Should I put that in during the day? (It'll get about 90+ degrees) and just switch the black one in at night (that's the one we've been leaving on 24/7.)? I think the black bulb gets pretty hot, but it might not be as hot as it needs... So I was wondering if it was okay if the tank was a few degrees cooler at night, compared to day, since they are nocturnal... And that maybe he does need it hotter during the day?

Leos are actually crepuscular, not nocturnal.

I realize you have a day bulb, not an UTH. The range a leo needs is 88-93*F right on the substrate under the warm dry hide to 70ish on the cool end.

Are you taking the warm side temperatures with the digital's probe right underneath the warm dry hide?

I strongly suggest an 11 x 17 inch UTH for your 20 gallon LONG as well as a Hydrofarm thermostat. Leos like it warmer during the day than at night. A thermostat can easily make that adjustment. If your room temps are no cooler than 68*F, the thermostat can turn off your UTH during the night.

 

[RyoDai89]

Ah! Thought it was nocturnal...

I have one, yeah. But we've been using a 75 watt night bulb (it's like a black bulb I think) and a uth, but the uth doesn't really produce alot of heat... so we use both.

We just did, put it inside the hide, and I believe it was 95 degrees under the hot hide.


That's what I was wondering... They daylight bulb is 75 watts too, like the night one we've been using. Should we be switching bulbs during the day/night cycle?


Another question... Since we've moved hides, she's been on the cooler side now (making us believe she was never cold, just preferred that particular hide...) Last night, we've moved the humid hide to the hot side, not the middle, and she was in there for a little over a couple hours... Then right back to the old hide she's always hiding in, that's now on the cool side...

Is this normal? Being so long in the humid hide? And now staying on the cooler side since that's where her favorite hide is now? I would hope if she was cold... she'd go in the new hot hide, right?
Another thing... the calcium is calcium with D3, but I've just recently heard that that wasn't suitable... That she could over dose, or that there wasn't enough D3 in it to help her digest the calcium... We've just ordered Nutrobal, to give her more Vitamins... Is it okay to keep using the D3 calcium, or should we save up to get her just straight calcium with no D3 and just use that with the Nutrobal..?