flagyl

[miguel camacho!]

for those of you with flagyl...i was wondering where you get it from. someone is convincing me that one of my geckos may be suffering from entamoeba, but i dont know of a good place to get it. id prefer self-treating the gecko rather than taking it to a vet, not only for the experience, but for the fact there are no good herp vets in my area and i would likely pay too high a price for an exam. so are there any suggestions?

 

[WildEyeReptiles]

Flagyl is prescription only - the problem is that many vets dont know the dilution or the amount to use.

 

[miguel camacho!]

doh! i found sites online selling generic flagyl for like $30 for 30 200 gram pills...saying no prescription needed....but we all know how buying stuff on the web can be. thanks!

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

There's a vet on kingsnake.com that sells Flagyl suspension in the "supplies" part of the classifieds section. If you're going to use flagyl, getting a real premade suspension is the way to go. Much easier than tring to make your own from pills.


http://market.kingsnake.com/detail.php?cat=22&de=407309


*edit to add:
I've not purchased from the above mentioned vet. Just seen his ads when I've been browsing kingsnake classifieds.

 

[kenya_1977]

The actual medicinal name of Flagyl is metronidazole. I've used it in treatment of protozoan infestations in geckos. The suspension was a 5 mg/ml dilution. (500mg tab diluted with 100ml water). This doesn't stay in suspension very well and needs shaken before distribution. It takes a very small amount of this to treat. I think I remember treating .1ml for 10 g of body weight.

If you can get a injection version do this (also orally).. but you'll definitely need better advice on treatment given the dilution factors are different.

 

[kenya_1977]

Also, even if there isn't a good vet in your area.. many will accept fecal samples and issue the proper medication without seeing the animal. I'd check out some online sources.

 

[mwheelock]

Hey,
Don't mean to be rude but there are a number of very qualified vets in your area. Dr Powers at CVS is and exotics specialist and is not even 3 miles from you. 704-949-1100. I also see reptiles and am @ 5 miles from you. I work at Harris Blvd Vet Clinic 704-596-7387.

I certainly am not trying to get you to come see me, but you are absolutely in an area that is full of knowledgable vets.

I'm not trying to be mean either, but the reason that metrinidazole is by prescription, (if you are getting it without a prescription, that is illegal) is that if given wrong, by the wrong dose, or to the wrong patient (for example a slightly dehydrated animal) it potentially will kill the animal.

Being the owner, companion, shepherd of an animal means that you need to do right by them. If you do not have the time or money to keep them correctly, you really shouldn't be keeping them.

I urge you to go to a vet before you treat with a drug that you don't know "for the experience." If you do, you don't care for this animal as much as you say.

I would be happy to give you as many phone numbers in the area for qualified vets. If you want me to do a fecal and rx the meds you give me a call...

 

[herperboy]

Not to go against the word of a vet or anything...but many of the keepers on here have MANY animals and would go broke if they took them all to a vet for treatment. My suggestion is take just a few in for treatment, show the vet that you know exactly what you are talking about, and after a while give you flagyl if you just bring in a fecal sample which in my experience costs like $10. What Ive done in the past is just gotten the equation to figure out how much you need by body weight and measured my own out of a big bottle (I said I was treating my 800g bearded dragon). Not saying that its okay to lie or anything, but then if you do lose an animal it is your own fault and cant go after the vet for the animal dying.

 

[Whodaplatus?]

With regard to the metronidazole and vet issue, I just want to speak on behalf of "Miguel Camancho" and explain that he is a model animal companion/keeper.

I sympathize with the concern that some herpers don't care adequately for their animals - but generally these are the same folks who are in it for the wrong reasons (not the case here). Secondly, vet qualifications are not so much the issue as finding a vet with Uroplatus experience. I've made 2 visits to a vet in Raleigh, and both times I learned nothing I didn't know already. Additionally, both times the nursing staff tried to place my animals on heat pads because they are more accustomed to reptiles that like it above 80 - "you need to keep your geckos much warmer" they'd scold me.

Confused staff aside, I suspect diagnostic protocols for Uroplatus are limited for very practical reasons of health care economics. Why fund research for a genus that constitutes a fraction of a percent of visits to all exotic vet offices? If you do a pubmed search you'll find a grand total of 7 veterinary articles that even mention Uroplatus (vs 419 for "Iguana"). For all these reasons, I believe it appropriate for someone with as much experience as Mike to provide a certain level of care at home.

In conclusion, while I'm not a vet, I am a 5th year MD, PhD student and would feel reasonably comfortable with Mike pushing a little Flagyl down my throat if I were a gecko.

Regards,
the other Mike in NC

 

[Whodaplatus?]

Addendum - the unnamed vet in Raleigh did a great job with my leopard geckos and other animals. In fact, I'd recommend them in general, and their staff is on the whole very caring and knowledgable. It's only with regard to cost effective diagnosis and treatment of this very tricky genus that I ran into what I feel are almost unavoidable problems.

Mike

 

[mwheelock]

Whodaplatus:

I agree with herperboy in the fact that if you establish a relationship with a vet in the area, most with herp experience are not going to punish their clients that do right by their animals. I have a number of clients that come in for fecals and meds without the exam once I have established a relationship with them.

Since you're a 5th year in a the MD program, you are certainly familiar with the client patient relationship and the legality involved with prescribing drugs without this. Many a veterinarian and human physician has had their DEA number revoked for doing such a thing.

I'm certain that you are not advocating the callous scripting of prescription drugs. Would you script Miguel Flagyl without seeing his animimal (Would you do this with your human patients?) You should have your DEA number by now ( you could script him flagyl is he's your friend). If the answer is no, though, you agree that this would be unethical to do so for a human as well as a veterinarian.

I by no means equate a human with a herp, but 1) the laws are there for a reason, and severe consequences for breaking them 2)the dangers of medicating without proper knowledge is reckless. 3) even in herd health, resonable care is required of the animals.

Finally,
I have no doubt that Miguel has done his homework on his particular species and is most probably a responsible keeper. However, I had two issues with his previous post: 1) He stated that there were no knowledgable vets in his area (In this statement he has not done his homework.) and 2) administering flagyl is as easy as just finding a dose (which is okay I guess if you are willing to take a risk in killing your animal- a calculated risk in herd health sometimes.)

 

[miguel camacho!]

ok...so im caught. mwheelock, you are correct in the fact that i did not do my research to find a "good herp vet" in the area. it was a case where i chose the wrong words, and perhaps was biased from past experience with a "knowledgeable" vet in regards to some of the cases i brought to them.

perhaps ive grown a bit cold towards vetting my geckos, and i will openly admit that. my issue is that i do not believe that someone classified as a herp vet necessarily has the edge to know what to do for my leaftails when they fall ill. as the other mike explained, uroplatus arent what i would think to be common visitors to any vet, whether or not affiliated with exotics. i am totally open to being disproven, and i would honestly prefer that i could be disproven.

as for the issue with the meds...this was a way old topic, with not enough detail on the situation provided in order to really require the tangents it reached. my issue was this: i had a male uroplatus pietschmanni that had been in my care for ~2 years, and had suddenly become lethargic and stopped eating. since ive got a nice lil network of others experienced with leaftails, i decided to ask them what they took of the situation. ends up it sounded like entamoeba, and someone had some experience treating it. they gave me advice, as well as proper dosing instructions. i was just looking for some medications, and didnt want to spend $50 just to find out i needed to spend more on medications that i would have known in the first place. true, it could easily have been misdiagnosis. i never intended to fish the forum to get a hold of prescription drugs, and im sorry if there was a misunderstanding.

my past experiences with vets have left me with about a thousand dollars in bills (paid, of course), a few dead animals, and a bitter taste in the back of my mouth.

ill be sending you a PM though, i am interested in herp vets you'd recommend in the area, because as i mentioned, id love to have my outlook for treating my geckos at vets to be changed. i have indeed heard of dr. powers, she is a fairly regular customer at the store i work at. perhaps you know dr. messenger as well (works at one of the huntersville clinics on statesville ave), his son is a good friend of mine, i actually am one of the biggest helping hands he has on his snake field research.

i apologize if i got a lil defensive, i just think some issues got a lil out of hand, and i had obviously completely overlooked this till now.

 

[mwheelock]

I too apologize for being so callous in accusations that were made. I am sure that you care for your animals very well...Damn the bluntness of the internet .

I'm sure Dr. Messenger would be happy to script you some flagyl if you are friend of his son and knows your husbandry techniques. (I referred an weird avian case to him probably a month ago.) He'd also walk you through dosing too, though you've probably got that covered.

No doubt, uroplatus are a tricky animal to treat. Do most veterinarians know how to treat? My (and your) guess is no. However, those that deal with reptiles do know some "stuff." I'm sure you'd agree that even though Dr. Mader doesn't keep every species that he treats, his opinion is worth quite a bit.

I, in no way, suggest that I am Dr. Mader, but if I'm not willing to research for my clients, or don't think that I can effectively help the animal, I don't treat or I don't charge. Maybe if you are down this way, you'll drop in and say hi.

Talk to you later,
Matthew