Brutal Attack!

[Cicada Hollow]

I recently purchased a 1.3 pairing (Eeny, Meeny, Miney & Moe) and I've had them just over a week. I also purchased The Herpetoculture of Leopard Geckos by Vosjoli & Tremper, so am doing as much research as I can in order to provide the best care. Right now finances are a tad tight, so I had my 1.3 pairing temporally placed in a smaller 20 gallon tank. I plan on purchasing a 40 gal later this week, but needed to wait until payday.

They are in nice warm temps (hot hide average 86*-88*) and their breeding activity has started back up. I've seen ova in two of the females and one female laid two eggs for me. The past couple of days there has been a few dime sized blood spots here and there. Now I was told that this could be breeding related, so I wasn't overly concerned about the dime spots. I was unable to find any signs of injury to any of the leos.

However, last night I watched my Jungle Giant male (64.1 grams) brutally attack one of my females (50.0 grams.) Before I could intervene and rescue Meeny, Moe had grabbed her by the tail and CHOMP! She had been trying to get away from him and had positioned herself between the lay box and the tank side, so her tail was the only thing he could grab. But, now I'm afraid that Moe wasn't aggressively mating but trying to kill Meeny.

I've separated Moe from the females, especially since my smallest female is only 44 grams. I had purchased them to keep as a breeding colony, but if he's going to be that aggressive, I can't risk the females. Does anyone have any thoughts on whether a larger tank setup might alleviate some of the tension? I can have them in their new setup by Wednesday, which would be as soon as I had the funds.

I'm pretty bummed right now, almost ready to throw in the towel on the leos. *sigh* This was going to be a nice breeding group and I had high hopes for jungle giant cross babies. But, the leo project was just supposed to be something to do for fun and I'm not wanting to deal with separating the male from the females and work breeding schedules. Even if I did seperate, what would keep him from tearing another female up the next breeding cycle? Here is a picture of the suspect male:

 

[miss libby]

You need to separate them all, its obvious that the male is taking a beating also
you cant just buy four leos giants even and put them in a 20 gallon and expect
them to get along. Leos are territorial and do better housed alone. even the females might fight. It might be over hides or food or just territorial instinct.
Keep them separate and put neosporin on the females tail.
It important that you separate them even if you have to put them each in a separate tupperware container you need to keep them apart or they may
seroiusly injure one another. They are beautiful leos its a shame the female
has lost her tail. im glad its only the end of it. The injured female should really be in a tank of her own she is probably stressed due to her injurys. What ever you do dont give up on leopard geckos they are beautiful creatures and great pets if you have the time to get to know them. If you are already discouraged with them
maybe its best not to breed them its alot of work incubating and raising them
not to mention the expense. Ideally you should have a tank for each one of your leos. I have two females that are housed together and they do fine so females can be alright together but not all females. Were they housed together before you purchased them? because they should be quarintined for 90 days before introducing incase any stress they indure brings on an illness or any parasites have gone
thru a complete cycle. i hope you take my words to heart for the leos sake. Great pictures by the way you got some really nice shots im sorry they are hurt in them but they will heal, ive seen worse at a pet store where the leos tail was broke at the base from a fight it wasnt a pretty site and the pet store owner separated them then put them back together for tank space for babies he just purchased and he already had an empty one, then he doesnt clean the tank before putting the babies in it he is just a sick pet store owner he makes me sick. anyway i wish you best of luck with those georgeous giants of yours i hope you are not offended by anything i said it wasnt meant to be offensive just trying to help a fellow leo owner. if i can think of anything else i will post it. please keep us posted on her progress of healing. wouldnt mind seeing the other two females if you have the time to show them off. take care

 

[miss libby]

leos should be the same size when housed together so bullying doesnt occure. including females.

Females especially giants should be over 50 grams to breed. they may
lose weight during laying.

 

[Cicada Hollow]

The leos were purchased as a 1.3 breeding group, housed together, so were very familiar with each other. Since they were an established breeding group, there was no need to quarantine from each other. The females are just Trempers, not Tremper Giants, only the male is a Tremper Giant. I would be breeding the three Trempers to the Tremper Giant to produce Giant crosses.

I've not found anything stating that the leos can't be raised in a colony. I thought that with them already being a breeding group, they would be okay until I could purchase the larger tank. I could set up each female with her own tank and rotate the male around, but I purchased them as a breeding group with the intent on keeping them as a 1.3 pairing, so I'll definitely have to give it some serious thought.

You said it's obvious the male is taking a beating, but he doesn't have a scratch on him. Here is another picture of him:

Here are photos of my other two females:

~D

 

[gecko-kus]

Just like with most geckos just because it is a breeding group doesnt mean they can all live together all year round. You introduce them at breeding time for a little period and then seperate them again, because things such as fights like you noticed or stress from over breeding will occur. Dont dismiss breeding or keeping leos over this, just make the aditional space to split them up. Which ever reptiles you decide to breed you'll havre to allow for multiple enclosures anyway for the same reason, so I see no reason to ive up the leos.

 

[mypetmonster]

I know this may come off the wrong way, but are you sure that the beat up female is not a male? It looks to me as though she is, I can clearly see the distended bulges of testicles on the base of his/her tail. You may have bought them temperature sexed and not visibly sexed. I would most certainly confirm his/her sex before putting them back togather.
Best of luck
Todd

 

[Cicada Hollow]

I really appreciate everyone's input, but I will seriously have to consider if I want to work a rotation with females and the male. My space is limited because of my other projects, and when I purchased this group, it was with the intention of keeping them as such. I may offer the male and the largest female up and just keep the two smaller females as pets.

My main hobby is breeding crested geckos, which I've set up in 1.1 breeding colonies. My goyles are also in a 1.1 colony and I plan to keep my satanics and williamsi also in colonies. This is my first experience with a gecko that doesn't do well in colonies and I was totally unprepared. None of the research I'd done mentioned possible aggression problems, except with male and male.

I too wondered if Meeny might be male, but after louping, I'm sure she's female. I think that things just got out of hand. I don't want anyone to think that I'm an irresponsible owner. I've put a lot of time and love into these guys. I check each one daily for bits of shed stuck around digits and all around health. I put a lot of time into my animals, as they are the only children I have, and often get grief for spoiling.

I feel horrible that this incident happened and hold myself responsible for Meeny's attack.

 

[miss libby]

Nobody thinks you are irresponsible at least i dont maybe just a bit unexpeirienced.
The way to tell for sure the sex of your leos is by the way they act towards each other. The males will rapidly shake their tails like a rattle snake and if the other leo does the same he knows its another male if they dont do the tail thing he knows its a female. And should act accordingly. Dont feel horrible meeny is ok
and you have learned something about leopard geckos. Also a tip from tremper himself was to bring the females to the male. I cant honestly say that a bigger tank wouldnt solve the problem with them they might have just been over crowded. Also the first pic of the male it looked like his back leg above his foot was a bit bloody even the second pic of him his back foot looks strange. the other two females are pretty cute dont know how you can tell them apart they look so alike. They are a very nice group and should produce some lovely babies.
this is what i house my male in

when the females are ready i can bring them to him.

 

[Cicada Hollow]

I'm very inexperienced, which is why I purchased the leo book and started researching as much as I could. But, I hate to have to learn about the aggressive breeding this way.

There has been no tail rattling between any of them, and no signs of aggression until the other night. Of course then it was too late.

The photos of the male were actually taken when I first got them, so anything you are seeing is pre-attack and the day that they arrived here. It could be that he was fired up from the trip? I didn't want to over handle, but did snap a few pics so I could brag about their arrival.

And it's easy to tell them all apart, just because of size. Eeny is the smallest at 44 grams, Meeny is or was before tail loss, 50 grams, and Miney is the biggest female at 60 grams. I'm definitely not putting Eeny anywhere near the big brute of a male, so I guess she will stay celibant. If they are supposed to be matched up by similiar size, I don't know why she was part of this pairing. She's just so tiny.

That's a very nice setup. What size tank do you have your male in?

 

[lilernie]

i think mypetmonster is right. if the "female" was really a male then the two males would fight

 

[miss libby]

During breeding the male should only grab ahold of the females neck for a few seconds to hold her still it doesnt even have to leave a mark. So its not that aggresive of an act especially considering what to males can do to one another.
I have to say i am also a bit unexpeirienced since i have never breed leos but
I have owned them for a year or so and have learned a great deal about them
from people that have done breeding and rescues.

So how is the female doing? Are they all eating ok? It wouldnt surprise me if the hurt female doesnt eat for a couple of days and possibly the male too.

The main reason that leos are best housed alone is to eliminate all possibility
of stress. My two females have never fought but there is an occasional lift
of a tail when one enters a hide that the other is using which im sure creates
a little bit of stress but just like you i am strapped for room. I do plan to
eventually separate my two females as soon as my daughter will let me
give the placosamus away and my friend gets the rest of his goldfish feeders out of my 20 gallon i will have something a decent size for one of them. dont know where im going to put it but with a will is a way they say.

About my tank I dont know the size in gallons but its 48 inches long and 13 inches wide.

A couple of days ago i put my biggest female 50+ grams in with my male as
we were very curious what would happen and he also bit her but didnt attack her so to say. He approched her slowly, licked her a couple of times, then slowly grabbed her side it didnt even leave a red spot nothing i could see i even looked
the next day but i immediatly removed her because he did start to shake his head a little. The whole time from the second he saw her his tail was shaking like a rattle snake. After i took her out he searched the tank for her 3 times for her
with his tail going crazy every once in a while.

If i were you i would try the females together in the 40 gallon and the male alone.

One more thing i was wondering are you sure the dime size spots were blood?

 

[sarahjane85]

I also see hemi-penal bulges on Meeny (1st/2nd pic). You don't have to loop for leos --
Usually male pre-anal pores are visible, but in some of the lighter morphs it's really difficult to distinguish -- look again and if needed, compare Meeny with one of your other females using good lighting. I house 5 females in a 45 gallon breeder. And while it is true that some females will 'fight', this is only establishing their heirarchy and usually resolves itself within a few weeks. There may be nicks and some evidence of white marks but should not be excessive! You might get a few squabbles between females and you might not. The important thing is to be absolutely sure of the sex and then go from there.
Until then, just separate Meeny from the rest and allow Moe to scent-mark his new enclosure and get use to your home environment. A 20 gallon for 4 animals is perfectly suitable as long as you have at least 4 hides and other areas they can feel secure in. I will try to post a pic of my set-up. The repti-hammocks and grapevine add another "layer" to your tank so I highly recommend these. I boil the grapevine for 15 minutes and then bake it at 400F for 1/2 hour, turn the oven off, and allow the oven to cool with the grapevine remaining ~ another hour, just to rid it of any mites, etc... from wherever it came from.
You can keep Moe in his own 10 gallon until you want to breed, introduce the female to him, and leave her in there overnight. Females are most receptive when they show ~ dime-sized follicles. I've seen males attack females when they are not receptive. On the other hand, if you don't want to house the male separately, then don't. But make sure you have the hiding areas and the extra layer in your tank so females can escape the male when they are not receptive.
Keep Meeny in a small enclosure and treat the wounds with either Neosporine (tastes terrible) or Boiron Calendula gel (better).
The wounds will heal fine --
It's good to hear you are so concerned over the geckos -- they should be well taken care of.
Best of luck.
Sarah

 

[sarahjane85]

One more thing for Miss Libby --
after the male neck-grips a female they will shake their head a little to ensure a good grip and might even change the grip to another area of the head -- if the female was receptive she would have remained still --- you really teased your male by removing the female (i.e. not good)

 

[miss libby]

So you think the male was going to mate with her? I am to
afraid to put her in again. he was at her side not her neck.
I cant watch him bite her like that. What if he hurts her?

 

[sarahjane85]

Most likely, yes he would have mated with her. From your description, sounds like he's a good male. What I mean is that some males when presented with a female don't get it right the first time. They will either bite the female too hard, in which case she'll let him know, or sometimes they try to get on backwards because they are so excited and body-grip the female so much that she gets annoyed.
I say the next time you present her to him that you let them go ahead and copulate (if you want to breed, that is). You'll know when they are done because right after he'll clean himself. Allow him to do this otherwise he can get a crusty build-up and/or his hemi-penis won't retract.
At this point you can remove the female.
Well, this is one of the things about mating -- this is how they do it. He won't hurt her as long as she's receptive and you'll know this if she doesn't try to run or bite back (don't let him chase her down). Sometimes females just go about their business while mating, like walking slowly away, kind of ignoring the male and what he's doing. :lol: :lol:
He might go over her whole body with little body-grips before settling on her head pads but it shouldn't cause bleeding or torn skin. There might be little white scrapes where his teeth have scratched up surface skin but this is nothing like an actual bite. Kind of like if you scratch your skin and it turns white with scratch marks.
Remember, he's only gripping a very small piece of skin, very lightly, to hold her still. Time-wise it will take a minute or less.
It's pretty neat to see this the first time.
I'd put her in around dusk when they will be more active. Try to remain quiet and still while they carry on their business.
Have fun!

Sarah.

 

[miss libby]

Its probably better that i dont put her back in with him again at
least for now. I havnt got a incubator for the eggs and i cant buy
one at the moment. I also have another male leo coming from ohio
that i won at an auction she is sending him off on monday and im
getting a tank ready for him. My house is only 720 square feet
and i already have 8 tanks in here. My husband has been very
patient with me about all the time i spend on my leos and the
feeders plus all the tanks all over the house. I would like to mate
my male patch and she (rosie) would be the ideal female for him.
not really morph or color wise but she is the one that is at a good
weight for breeding. My other female pepper will be a good match
with patch morph and color wise as soon as she hits a little over 50
grams. My third female ginger i will never probably mate because
she is a runt probably because she has mbd (i got her that way)
and her front legs are bowed. Thanks for the input about mating
i apprieciate the feedback. If and when i do mate them i will let
you know how it goes. thanks again.