Are my bandeds different locales?

[oscar]

ok, i know there was a shake up with the whole coleonyx variegatus phase/locale thing this year, but i picked up an additional female a couple months ago and was going to introduce to to my pair, but i wanted to make sure that i wasnt crossing locales and, if i was, is it acceptable.

original gal.. excuse the bad quality

original dude

new girl

 

[Coleonyx]

I am very sure that you are crossing locales. The only way to be sure is to get the locality from the sellers. Unless they were collected by the same person, I would say different locales. I would even say that your male is a Cv bogerti telling from the pic (yellow in color and purple inbetween). Your new female has the speckling of the bands characteristic of most localities of Cv utahensis. Who knows. lol. You would have to do a scale count to be sure that they are even the same subspecies as each other, yet, even when that is accomplished (its very hard to count them!), there are some overlaps in the scale guidelines. Sorry I couldn't help more.

 

[Switaki]

No one can tell you by just looking at your pictures.

JJ

 

[yuri]

Original male looks to be a C. v. bogerti - the dark cross bands are distinct with lighter centers. The dark bands also look to be thinner than the lighter bands. This is a somewhat educated guess though and should not be taken as anything else.

It looks like the new girl's dark bands are not as distinct, and are wider than the lighter bands. The original girl looks to have a similar dark band/light band trait. So, for fun, I would guess these are either C. v. variegatus or less likely C. v. utahensis. Again, just guessing for the sake of guessing.

I have not seen that many C. v. utahensis (and also don't know if the color balance of your photos is consistent) although I did have a small group for a while. It seems that this subspecies has larger, distinct dark spots within both the dark banded area and also the light banded area (not small, slightly darker smudges, but easily discerned spots). Have a look here for two examples (http://www.geckoweb.org/profile/coleonyx-variegatus-utahensis).

Like others have said before, it is usually very difficult to tell. It is best to purchase from people who have collection data and who actually know that there are different sub species and where their animals (or parents) are collected.

If you plan on breeding these, I would not sell to the public as one sub species or another. I would be up front that you don't know the locality and are likely offering hybrids of unknown origin.

 

[yuri]

Sorry, my entire post was about "sub species" and not locales. Locales is more problematic. I collected several Coleonyx variegatus variegatus in Borrego Springs (the town, where it is legal to collect) and within the same spot, I had two very different looking specimens (one very yellow, the other much paler yellow and very pale brown). I kept these two for many months to see if they would change, and they did not. So, the two looked very different color-wise, but were caught next to each other (less than a foot apart at the same time).

There can be a lot of variation within a given population, no matter how small, so going by look alone as to locale, is like playing the lottery - except with locales you will never know if you are correct, but with a lottery, you can find out if you won.

 

[strikedistance]

yuri- The problem with those borrego local where you find them in the town in that certain section with trees they are intergrades. Most of borrego is unless you go to the dunes or up near ranchita. "Borrego local" are not one subspecies anyway.

 

[oscar]

sorry guys, i must apologize for using incorrect terms. i wasnt really referring to locales as much as sub-species. i had thought they had done away with the sub-species and just started lumping them all as C.variegatus and then grouped them according to locality.

i picked them all up at local shows and got the first group together and the 2nd female seperately, and i know that the 2nd female is from a guy that just turns things over as quickly as possible.. great for unique finds, rotten for getting accurate info. the pair i got from a guy in Nevada if i remember correctly and he is a collector so i would assume they are actually from the same local.

bottom line.. would it be acceptable to breed them? if i do, are they gonna be considered hybrids and ethically questionable offspring?

thanks for the input everone.
scott

 

[GeckoFiend]

I think it's fine to breed them, just as long as you let buyers know that you don't have local data. I'm sure there are enough peeps that would love to have some nice CB coleonyx as pets and don't care about locals.

 

[yuri]

I am not quite sure what you are trying to say here. Do you mean to say that in certain parts of the town of Borrego Springs that have trees contain integrades?

yuri- The problem with those borrego local where you find them in the town in that certain section with trees they are intergrades. Most of borrego is unless you go to the dunes or up near ranchita. "Borrego local" are not one subspecies anyway.

 

[oscar]

just to post some better pics of my originals and see what the concensus on what everyone thinks i have.

 

[Coleonyx]

I think it would be safe to say that your male is a Cv bogerti

 

[strikedistance]

yuri- No im saying that most of borrego are intergrades. Almost the whole town unless you go to the dunes or go up to ranchita. Im taking it you have never herped there.

 

[yuri]

I have been there, last year in fact.

Your second sentence is confusing. I am not sure what you are saying.

Almost the whole town unless you go to the dunes or go up to ranchita.

Almost the whole town ... what?

 

[strikedistance]

Almost all the geckos in the town/park are intergrades unless you go out to the dunes or up the road to ranchita.

 

[yuri]

Thanks for the clarification. I was not aware that these are considered integrades.

Yuri

Almost all the geckos in the town/park are intergrades unless you go out to the dunes or up the road to ranchita.