grandis morph

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BlakeDeffenbaugh

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Anywhere you go you are going to have competition to be the best and do it first. If Jay was the first to put all the time in to prove something out he should get the recognition for it. Just like if your the first person to breed a species of animal and you spent all that time figuring out the husbandry techniques you should be the person getting credit as well.
 

Haroldo

New member
If As you stated, "morphs" are naturally occurring, so how could someone then claim to have started something. Either the occur naturally or they don't
It doesn't matter who was the first to start selling them or who has been most sucessful in isolating breeding pairs who will produce the optimum number of "x" Morphs

I certainly did not take from the post that KC was saying " Hey Everyone I and I alone created this "morph" which has never been seen, or available for sale and only avaible from me, The creator of this "Morph". The Only person I seeing claiming to have created the "morph" is jay.

I look on these forums to see the animals and set-ups, not hear people brag about breeding specific traits. When I buy an animals its because it appeals to me not because its the "in" variety..or because I can brag because its expensive and hard to find..wow look at me I am better than you because I have more money

Actually, it may not matter to you how gets the credit, but this is how the world tends to work. First person to visit the North Pole certainly didn't create it, but they sure got the credit for it like they did! If you don't believe this is the way things work in this hobby, check leopard gecko morphs, ball python morphs, green tree python morphs and so on...

And despite my (generally) non-normative approach to being a member on these forums, I did take Post #1
just thought I would post some pics of this crazy new grandis morph.
to mean exactly what it implied. I tend to get the impression you're new to the hobby? I'm certainly no vet, but I can appreciate the hard work Jay and others have put in. I believe he's been "in" for around 20yrs and I'm sure he's seen fads come and go, just as he's seen "serious keepers" fade away...Unlike you, I see no implications that this discussion has anything to do with trends, wealth, or undeserved respect. If you've kept ANY animals for ANY length of time, you'd know that people that stick around, aren't in for it for the money. You think people like Jay, Jon, and alot of private keepers that I won't name, buy animals for bragging rights?! I'd like to know how that works when most of the world is oblivious to them even keeping them?! It's mostly for the love of the hobby! And that includes me with my $1K geckos and $10K dogs:cool:..
 
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'stoph

New member
I'm kinda following jpstodwftexas in this.
Why can't he show us his phelsuma's?

Don't see the big problem here. He didn't seem to want to take credit to be the first breeder for this morph. Yes he didn't mention where his animals came from so what.

But i never understood the big deal about morphs either.
To me preservation of endangered species is far more important.
 

jpstodwftexas

New member
So What you all are saying is anytime I post a picture of a gecko I buy from anywhere I can't say Hey I wanna post pics my new Gecko?

Reasons being
1: I implied I created the Gecko because I said "new"
2: I can't because I don't know who first imported, sucessuful breed the animal, who has spent the most time and money accumulating the breeders and have not given them all the credit.

Yes I am fairly new to keeping Geckos. I have had my oldest (first) approximately 5 years now. No I ain't a breeder so I don't have any idea how long this "New morph" has been around. Yes I recently, compared to most of discovered these forum and similar ones. I came here to learn and share pics etc. with people I thought was fellow gecko lovers. Not egotistical maniacs. I would not have even replied anything other than "Nice looking" or "outstanding" if I hadn't seen the personal attacks starting. I had hoped to prevent a Childish and bitter exchange between two fellow Geckokeepers. Similar exchanges on others boards are the reason why I don't frequent them as often as I do here.

I personally believe people who breed are in for the Money. How they Choose to spend the money doesn't matter to me, either to obtain more critters or food.

People who keep animals should be in it for the love of the animals. Not because they can afford it. Thats why every Dog, cat or ferrets I have every owned has either been a stray or adopted from someone else. I have never paid for one. To me every animal is worth the same regardless if they are valued at $0.00 or Priceless. I wish there was enough stray unwanted geckos out there to adopt instead of having to purchase them. I don't catch wild animals. Although I have rehabed skunks, oppossums, Raccons, weasles, deer, birds, turtles, tortises and more. The animals I have helped without breeding and selling any.

I am sorry if someone feels offended by my opinions and views.
Please keep these forums and useful as a viable source information about everyone. I didn't mean to step on anyones ego.
 

Haroldo

New member
I'm kinda following jpstodwftexas in this.
Why can't he show us his phelsuma's?

Don't see the big problem here. He didn't seem to want to take credit to be the first breeder for this morph. Yes he didn't mention where his animals came from so what.

But i never understood the big deal about morphs either.
To me preservation of endangered species is far more important.

Just to be clear just in-case there is some misappropriation of semantics:
(1) I don't have a problem with Terry posting. His "reputation" aside, I enjoy just seeing pics of animals, especially Phelsuma.
(2) I don't necessarily believe his (Terry aka kcgeckoguy) objective was to insinuate he was the originator of the line, but I merely proposed his first post of "new morph" might be understood that way...I don't think anyone here is objecting or calling for a necessity of divulging where animals come from...
(3) Preservation of endangered species is more important, but that aside, we deal in a phenomenal world, whereby hard-work is usually recognized, if not expected/earned...
 

Haroldo

New member
So What you all are saying is anytime I post a picture of a gecko I buy from anywhere I can't say Hey I wanna post pics my new Gecko?
No. Never implied, said, or otherwise insinuated that. To avoid situations such as the one at face now, you might want to avoid introducing a new morph in such an ambiguous manner, such that the laymen might assume you were the originator...
Similar exchanges on others boards are the reason why I don't frequent them as often as I do here.
Same feelings, which is why I spend most my time offline or here...

I personally believe people who breed are in for the Money. How they Choose to spend the money doesn't matter to me, either to obtain more critters or food.
If I (for instance) was breeding for the money, I could be better off (financially) investing more in other areas of my life...certainly more straightforward with a guaranteed return...
This is something many don't fully appreciate until they spend 10, 20, 30 grand on a collection, to only see species they enjoy keeping, depreciate in value year after year...The very nature of selling offspring, almost assures less profit over the long-term (basic economics)...


People who keep animals should be in it for the love of the animals. Not because they can afford it.
Well yes and no. Being able to afford an animal is a paradox. While high-dollar animals keep "would-be" irresponsible keepers from them, they also keep dedicated keepers away from them. Having a passion for doing anything should be a prerequisite for your being involved in it, but it certainly doesn't ensure your success or even a worthwhile contribution...

Thats why every Dog, cat or ferrets I have every owned has either been a stray or adopted from someone else. I have never paid for one.
While that is commendable, I don't see how my owning dogs that cost several thousand make me any less of a person? Or is that not what you're getting at?

To me every animal is worth the same regardless if they are valued at $0.00 or Priceless. I wish there was enough stray unwanted geckos out there to adopt instead of having to purchase them.
There are enough unwanted geckos out there. True dedication would prevail over personal taste in species...
I don't catch wild animals. Although I have rehabed skunks, oppossums, Raccons, weasles, deer, birds, turtles, tortises and more. The animals I have helped without breeding and selling any.
You keep coming back to what I deem the "breeding argument"...what is the significance of it. Captive breeding is problematic for you? If so, I'm interested to hear your position...
I am sorry if someone feels offended by my opinions and views.
Please keep these forums and useful as a viable source information about everyone. I didn't mean to step on anyones ego.

I've no stake in this exchange of dialogue (personally), but I am however interested in what has come of it. These forums are a viable source of information because of continued off-board/on-board discussion between keepers/breeders. Not every exchange is non-aggressive and it is important for people to realize that all this wealth of information does not come from the air. If it were not for the multitude of avid hobbyist that participate (however infrequent), how long would it take for the novice to gain some sincere experience?

That's all I've got to say in this thread...
Btw, nice looking P. grandis Terry and Jay. Can't wait to see some of these in person...
 

BlakeDeffenbaugh

New member
Harold those are some gorges animals. I remember seeing that post a month or so ago now that I think about it. But I had no clue they cost that much. I was looking into breeding Irish Wolfhounds but after seeing the cost on those I decided to wait a few years till I can afford it. . . and the 10tons of food it would take a year to feed them lol.
 

Geitje

New member
I think this whole thread boils down to this - the author (kcgeckoguy) and the entire text of his opening message - "just thought I would post some pics of this crazy new grandis morph.".

The word "crazy" insinuates something that is difficult to believe or outrageous.
The word "new" insinuates (or implies) something that is hitherto unknown.

So everyone on this forum is left with that in mind. For anyone who has been around for longer than 3 months, we already know this form is not new and in fact has been around for a number of years. Terry states having received the animals from Jay = that's not exactly new.

Then, Terry states "Jay or should we call you by your real name?". That's quite an irony coming from someone who does NOT post their real name in the text of their message or in their username. Jay's name is clearly known to those who have been around, and furthermore is his username. No mystery there. Who cares about nicknames, middlenames, etc.? Anyone on this forum - why would someone not post their true name here (Mr. Switzerland?)? Sinister shananigans? Probably.

I think it is commendable and the natural right for Jay to have stated something here in defense of what he has worked diligently on for 5-6 years. Anything less of allowing him to state his work and receive due credit here - is highly disrespectful.

If jpstodwftexas or anyone else reading this thread finds it offensive, then I'd suggest simply not reading it, let alone, replying to it. Just ignore it and close it out if you do not find it interesting or it does not pertain to you.

I also think that Jay pointing out the credibility of the original author's history on the B.O.I. comes as a public service to others in this community who might be stooped by such sinister and deceptive methods. Respectable breeders in this community not only care for what we keep, but how respect and credit is dealt to those that are deserving of it.

That's what separates the playas (dedicated, respectful gecko breeders) from the rest.

Peace, respect and geckos,

Jon Boone
(a.k.a. "geitje" = the Afrikaans word for gecko + and that's right I LIKE African geckos!)
 

baugh

New member
this thread is the exact reason there was problems awhile back.

i think credit should go where credit is do. everyone that keeps phelsuma and proably alot of people who dont keep phelsuma knows who is reasonable for the blue morph. and for the data that we have on them(phelsuma).

so i personally want to say thanks to those that have been in it for the long run. the ones that i am writing this about know who you are. and with out there dedication we would not have near as much information about these species.
 

PassPort

New member
and the culprit remains silent............
Jay, wicked awesome geckos, as usual.
Here's my outlook: I'm currently working on developing a strain of green flame ciliatus (see my avatar) that breeds true. Everybody knows that there are green flames out there, but not too many people are breeding specifically for them. When my first babies hatch (any day now!) I'll post pics of them and say check out my strain of green ciliatus. I will also state the origin of the parents, and not make an attempt to take full credit for it.
-Kevin
 

Afelinus

New member
My take on this thread is simple.The header or title implies something.That implication would make it easy for the casual passer-by to assume that person posting was the originator of said morph.That would become disingenuous if the poster saw that could happen,and rightfully should note credit where credit is due.Those in the know would already see beyond that initial post,but they would see it in a different light...and that is taking credit for someone else's hard work and due diligence.Most of us who have been around long enough would see it that way.I have no personal stake either,but those geckos and that line of geckos has Jay's fingerprints all over it.This doesn't negate what Terry is doing with them,but if you know someone has laid the path,and you are going to be able to enjoy some nice geckos that appeal to you because of that path,then give the credit,regardless of whatever is happening personally. I can personally attest to how it feels when someone takes credit for your work,and it doesn't sit well.I think they are some damn striking animals myself.If only Felinus were blue.Marcus.
 

jaysommers

New member
jpstodwftexas,calling me a egotistical maniac is really oversteping your boundaries.You have no idea what I have sacrificed in my life to carve out my place at the table. If you knew what I have accomplished with reptiles in my life you would be surprised at how modest I really am. i am partly responsible for alot of what this hobby is.To call me names is very disrespectful and offensive.

The fact is there is a history here that YOU know nothing about.Try to not get involved in matters that are not of your concern.This thread was posted as a deliberate provocation.You are just to dense to realize it.Hell you might even be the "culprit" himself.Might not be but it wouldn't surprise me.

So that being said.I do not need credit for anything I do,period.However,I will not sit by and allow someone who does not deserve it to reap it's benifits.I have dedicated my life to what I do.You have no idea what I have accomplished and continue to accomplish.Mostly because I am not an ,oh what did you call me?Oh yeah an EGO MANIAC.Do not talk about me like you know me.

If you think I am getting rich off of what I do just because I have a phenominal collection,than you are wrong.I bust my ass,sacrifice everything in the world to do what I do,just so I can be disrespected?

I have been working quietly for many years with geckos,I leak a little out here and there.The hobby will never truly know,comprehend,or appreciate what Jon,myself and few others have really done to make this hobby what it is.I have earned the right to make my living doing what I do.

The next time you disrespect me I might not be so reserved in my response.

jpstodwftexas. Know your place.If you are ever in my neck of the woods,stop by.I will take the time to show you a species collection that will make you want to touch yourself.Things youve never heard of.Things you never thought were in captivity.When we are done I will take you out to my garage and show you my Ferrari.Then we can go out to my lake house for a Barbeque.Later we can take my Leer jet to my mansion in the French Riviera.On the way we can discuss my cricket bill,which is more than alot of peoples rent/mortgage.

Getting a sense of my ego yet?
 

David Jewell

New member
A few deffinetions for everyone.

egotistical - characteristic of false pride; having an exaggerated sense of self-importance
This particular blue morph was created by Jay and he wanted to make sure there is no misscomunication on that matter. He is a no bs type of guy and just wanted his due credit. He didn't post pics and make a big deal of this new project a few years ago, it has only recently been brought to everyones attention.

egotistical - characteristic of those having an inflated idea of their own importance
If you create a morph or bred something for the first time and someone else acts like they were the originator you wouldn't post a flowery, " I belive I was the first to produce this strain of grandis but I could be mistaken. Maybe I'm wrong, never mind". No, you would want to prove a point and make it clear to the forum community what the real story is and I bet you would want others to know what your opinion of the other person is.

egomaniac - an abnormally egotistical person
What a brasin and uncalled for way to describe a person you know nothing about. I remember fondly when I first started and I went around talking about things I knew nothing about. Oh wait, I kept my mouth shut when I was first learning the ropes and treated eveyone with respect and will continue to do so.

Note to anyone reading this thread THINK BEFORE YOU TYPE PEOPLE
 

PassPort

New member
Jay, I like your ego. It's very similar to mine, only w/ a bigger budget! Keep cranking out great geckos and ignore the idiots who bash you. Anybody who knows Phelsuma at all knows your name and that you're the guy who first popped out the true blues. I think it's pretty funny that the dueche bag was all in your face and posting constantly until you busted him. Now he's nowhere to be found!

-Kevin
 

jaysommers

New member
Excuse me Mr. jpstodwftexas,

Not taking credit?Kcgeckoguy(Terry Gwin) wrote and I quote!
"The grandis pictured is the 2nd generation. The first blues were from two pairs I had going and weren't nearly as blue as the one in the pic. I bred the nicest blue to the nicest blue and then to a male I stumbled upon at a show. That produced totaly patternless blue grandis."

"2nd generation"?The "first blues"?

By the way the patternless trait is also a characteristic of this morph.That is why the one in my photo is also patternless!!Do you think it is just a coincidence?

Come on.This whole thing is rediculous.You are a hypocrite.You are helping to promote and fuel the very thing you are complaining about in one of your posts.You are a passive aggressive, walking contradiction.
 

jpstodwftexas

New member
Excuse me Mr. jpstodwftexas,

Not taking credit?Kcgeckoguy(Terry Gwin) wrote and I quote!
"The grandis pictured is the 2nd generation. The first blues were from two pairs I had going and weren't nearly as blue as the one in the pic. I bred the nicest blue to the nicest blue and then to a male I stumbled upon at a show. That produced totaly patternless blue grandis."

"2nd generation"?The "first blues"?.

Sorry, Once again I figured that he ment that this is the 2nd Generation that he has personally raised himself. As if he raised a 1st and the selected the best to bred to a New male from a show. Sorry I ain't up on all the Bloodlines.


By the way the patternless trait is also a characteristic of this morph.That is why the one in my photo is also patternless!!Do you think it is just a coincidence?

Come on.This whole thing is rediculous.You are a hypocrite.You are helping to promote and fuel the very thing you are complaining about in one of your posts.You are a passive aggressive, walking contradiction.

Sounds like you two have a personal history and now your taking it out on me. I would love to see your facilities. Not so that you can prove who you are but because I love animals. I would love to see everyones Tanks in person. Photgraphs just don't do the animals justice. I have already apologized if anyone was offended. I goto evey Zoo, Aquarium and Nature Center I can find.
Instead of Flying me to the French Riveria Impress me Fly me to Valencia Spain. I hear they have a little aquarium there now.

I will take your personal attack on me in stride.
Since my opinions are not welcome I will know my place and never post here again in the forums. And yes i do get a since of your ego. Its a shame you look down on someone who loves this hobby as much if not more than you just because I am new and haven't spent a lifetimes money buying and selling.
 

jaysommers

New member
Sorry, Once again I figured that he ment that this is the 2nd Generation that he has personally raised himself. As if he raised a 1st and the selected the best to bred to a New male from a show. Sorry I ain't up on all the Bloodlines.




Sounds like you two have a personal history and now your taking it out on me. I would love to see your facilities. Not so that you can prove who you are but because I love animals. I would love to see everyones Tanks in person. Photgraphs just don't do the animals justice. I have already apologized if anyone was offended. I goto evey Zoo, Aquarium and Nature Center I can find.
Instead of Flying me to the French Riveria Impress me Fly me to Valencia Spain. I hear they have a little aquarium there now.

I will take your personal attack on me in stride.
Since my opinions are not welcome I will know my place and never post here again in the forums. And yes i do get a since of your ego. Its a shame you look down on someone who loves this hobby as much if not more than you just because I am new and haven't spent a lifetimes money buying and selling.

Personal attack?Are you kidding?You called me a name. You are unreal.You actually were looking down on me when you called me an ego maniac and you continue to do so.I find it extremely unlikely you love this hobby more than I do.You should quit now.I don't even understand the logic behind your posting.It's almost like you just want to get caught up in some drama.

Was this some feeble attempt at a psuedo-apology?You just projected all of your wrong doing onto me so that you would look like the victim of some attack?Your antagonism and complete lack of responsibility/accountability is exactly why I don't participate in forums.


You continue to try to provoke me by talking about my ego and money.I don't talk about money.My sacrifices are much more signifigant than petty monetary expendatures.You are the one that brought up money..."I personally wish true animal lovers would stop trying to genetically trying to produce the next great fad and leave nature alone.
Its a shame what people do to make alot of money" Remember when you said that?You are an idiot. You know nothing about what you speak of.This whole thing is passive aggressive.I told you not to disrespect me again.Next time I will slam your ass and get myself banned from this forum for life.

Remember you got yourself involved by offering your commentary, like people really care what you have to say about this matter.That kind of leads me to believe you might have an ego.That is unless your a professional commentator and you are being paid to come on here and give your opinion.

I ,unlike you, have some personal investment in this particular topic.I have a right to speak on this topic.You know nothing about this topic at all.Sometimes when you have no idea about a particular subject the smartest thing you can do is shut up.I learned this lesson at the ripe old age of around 10.Apparently you have some growing up to do.

Walking Contradiction= You! You said earlier in this thread it didn't look to you like he(kcgeckoguy/Terry Gwin) was trying to take credit.Then you just wrote this..." Sorry, Once again I figured that HE ment that this is the 2nd Generation that HE has PERSONALLY raised HIMSELF. As if HE raised a 1st and the selected the best to bred to a New male from a show." He,he,he,he,himself is who you reference,I see no mention of Jay Sommers,the real person responsible even though you don't feel he,he,he(Terry) is trying to take credit. So your understanding now is that Terrybred 2 generations and then picked up a male and selectively bred them to create this "morph".This Crazy New Morph(just like the title to this thread says) Which do you interperate?Did he say he created it or not?Do you have brain damage or something?Quit while you are behind.

Jay "THE GECKO GOD"Sommers

Bow down pathetic underling pukes and kiss my feet.

(Oh,yeah.To any moron who feels the need...I am being very over the top and sarcastic.Don't respond to my last comments.)
 
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DCReptiles

New member
I would just like to add my two cents here...
Jay Sommers has every right to be getting upset, as mentioned early you get really pissed off when someone takes the credit for your own work. Many people here have been trying to argue about this situation when you do not have any idea about the entire situation. I doubt any one here has even read about Terry Gwin on the BOI. But you do not hesitate to argue and act like you know about the situation.

Although, many people have some sort of Phelsuma grandis exhibiting blue coloration, few have been able to breed it and have been able to selectively breed it, and only Jay has been able to explain the occurrence of the blue trait. I am fascinated with the blue trait, and i try to understand it and learn about it but no one knows besides Jay. Jay deserves full credit for this "morph" , he is the only person who is able to breed this trait and have his animals exhibit this trait and keep this trait through adulthood, unlike other blue Phelsuma grandis that are being bred and exhibit the trait as juveniles but it then fades away. There should be no explanation needed nor arguing needed about who the true breeder of this trait is. Just look at the difference between an all blue grandis of Jay and a "tealish grandis" of other so called blue grandis breeders.

Lastly, if you are one of the people who have gotten butt hurt because you got involved in other peoples business you may as well leave. People talk about making the forums better, and they talk about their sick of people being ignorant and rude, but you are just as bad as what you hate. People will come to these forums behave rudely and then get upset. So i just ask of you so that these forums stay as a good place for hobbyists, mind your own business and don’t waste your time arguing about needless stuff. This is a place to discuss animals and enjoy the hobby. It’s not a place where people should be creating arguments and causing drama, this isn’t high school.
 
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