Inbreeding: Facts/opinions

[Turtlestork]

Ok. I am going to be breeding Crested Geckos. I plan on getting a few females to start, and then hatch out a few babies and get more females. I have a quite large tank (6'Lx18"Wx2'H) and I wanted to be able to fill it with some of the offspring I produced. But if I do this, obviously with only females, I am afraid inbreeding would occur. Is there a good chance of inbreeding in the above situation? Do males tend to stay away from their own offspring? Is inbreeding detrimental/irresponsible in your opinions? Please don't flame me, I just want to get the facts from people that know.


Thanks,
TS

 

[Royal-City-Reptiles]

Well, a tank with those dimensions isnt meant for arboreal geckos... that would be more for bearded dragons or others that would use the length. if you're planning on having that many cresties in one big enclosure, you need something taller than 2 feet. They won't use the length. Also, finding eggs in an enclosure with that length and width will be a nightmare. If you can tip that enclosure vertically it would work, otherwise I'd suggest re-thinking how you're going to set them up.
Of course, you will have to have a seperate tank for the offspring to grow in, (since they should be 30-35 grams before being bred, and cannot be housed with adults until they're of equal size...), and you'd need to remove sexable male offspring from the females... so you'll need to have a few different enclosures going on either way.
As for the inbreeding, the male will definitely not stay away from his own offspring, a female is a female to him... many people Do breed offspring back to parent... and have had no issues with it. It's done a lot in the hobby and with other breeding. I'm not against it, but it's your choice and I guess morals.

 

[Turtlestork]

Ok I have already pre-planned everything and this tank I really don't plan to put too many geckos in but I was exploring my options. I do understand about how I need to separate the offspring until they are at least breeding size (somewhere around 40 grams for males and more near 50 for females) and separate any males from females as to prevent pre-mature breeding. I know this, I research everything I undergo. I have never bred any animal, though, and being that I would like to eventually pursue a career involving keeping animals particularly herps I think it would be a good experience for me to do this. I have spoken to other crested gecko breeders and they say cresteds are a good animal to start breeding as they have small clutch sizes and aren't "in excess" as other animals are in the hobby. I also think this tank will work nicely, obviously not for 20 geckos but for more like 8 or so it will be quite nice. I mean, it is taller than some of the exo-terra tanks and geckos are widely kept in those.

So back to my main point. When you say it is done a lot in the hobby, do you mean it is done a lot in the hobby by the more knowledgeable people in the hobby or it is done in the hobby by people "lower" in the hobby in a sense? Is it rejected by a lot, or do some of the greatest breeders do it? I want whats best for the geckos. I am definitely not new to keeping reptiles and am just getting into cresties. I appreciate your advice. Thanks.


TS

 

[Royal-City-Reptiles]

I appologise if I've misread your tone...

Ok I have already pre-planned everything and this tank I really don't plan to put too many geckos in but I was exploring my options. I do understand about how I need to separate the offspring until they are at least breeding size (somewhere around 40 grams for males and more near 50 for females) and separate any males from females as to prevent pre-mature breeding.

Depending on genetics and how you've raised your geckos since they were hatchlings (or unless you bought them this way) many won't even REACH the 50g mark. There are certain ideals, and I like to have my geckos around the 45g mark, but the known breeding weight is 30-35 grams, it's not really a debate, it's a fact... You can breed yours at whichever weight you see fit, but that is the weight at which it's healthy to begin breeding your females.

I know this, I research everything I undergo.

I'm glad you do your research, but going by the conclusion you came to about the weights, that tells me you havnt checked out many different sources... which is part of doing the propper research.

I have never bred any animal, though, and being that I would like to eventually pursue a career involving keeping animals particularly herps I think it would be a good experience for me to do this. I have spoken to other crested gecko breeders and they say cresteds are a good animal to start breeding as they have small clutch sizes and aren't "in excess" as other animals are in the hobby..

That's awesome that you want to begin breeding them though, I find that they are a lot of fun. They would be a good gecko to start off with, but you won't get very far asking for people's input if you argue or reply rudely to almost every point they make. As you can probably see from our signature...we have many reptiles, and I specialize in cresties... so it's possible that I know what I'm talking about...

I also think this tank will work nicely, obviously not for 20 geckos but for more like 8 or so it will be quite nice. I mean, it is taller than some of the exo-terra tanks and geckos are widely kept in those.

You're right, for 8 or so geckos that tank would probably work... as long as it was set up properly, I was just saying that with a lot of geckos in one enclosure, they definitely prefer the vertical space. I use exo-terras for all my cresties, but my males are housed by themselves, unless they have a female in with them to breed, & my females are housed a few to a larger tank. I do get your point about how your enclosure is taller than the regular exo-terra... but my concern was just the amount of geckos you were planning on putting in something of that height.

So back to my main point. When you say it is done a lot in the hobby, do you mean it is done a lot in the hobby by the more knowledgeable people in the hobby or it is done in the hobby by people "lower" in the hobby in a sense? Is it rejected by a lot, or do some of the greatest breeders do it? I want whats best for the geckos. I am definitely not new to keeping reptiles and am just getting into cresties. I appreciate your advice. Thanks.

It's most definitely done by some of the (in my opinion)best and most knowledgeable breeders. It's extremely common. It's more a moral thing... but I've yet to see someone get cut up on a forum for breeding offspring back to a parent. I'd suggest bringing in new blood every once in a while if you plan on building up a breeding group this way... but other than that I havn't seen many issues about it. Hopefully some more people will add their opinions to this post aswell.
Again, I appologise if I misread your tone in your last post, but it came off rather ignorant to me.

-Deb

 

[niccoliherp]

Selective breeding happens all the time in the pet trade, and not just with reptiles. Generally this means breeding two individuals with desirable traits together in efforts to produce more desirable offspring. Sometimes this can mean inbreeding individuals. If you have two individuals with a very rare characteristic, then the only way to reproduce that trait may be to inbreed. you could outbreed these individuals, but results from this method are much slower. Personally, I don't like the idea of inbreeding and try not to practice it. But it is all based on personal opinion. Many of the unique color phases in some reptiles may not exist if it weren't for inbreeding.
In any case, it won't harm the animals being bred, but offspring might suffer genetic consequences (malformations and such). You will have to decide whether or not you want to risk those consequences.

 

[Turtlestork]

Thanks for the replies, everyone. Royal city reptiles, this is not at all what I wanted to happen. I am a devoted keeper, and I do my research. I have looked over many caresheets. My breeding age mistake I know I made but now looking over my sources it was that weight you mentioned and I do recall now reading it. I am not sure what I was trying to prove in the other post. Please don't get the impression that I am just another person getting into cresties because they are "cute". The real reason is explained above that I would like to breed and I believe breeding cresties is a bit better than breeding, say red eared slider turtles or bearded dragons where there are way too many in the hobby right now. It really wouldn't be hard for me to breed these animals, as I have both. But I decided against it for the surplus reasons. I also could have put an animal in this tank that wouldn't have thrived, but I decided to go with cresties as they are smaller and will be a lot more comfortable in the tank. I already have one male crested I bought from Garrick Demeyer online and he is doing great. "just another crestie keeper" would have simply spent 40 bucks at petco to get a gecko rather than $100 to get one shipped. I am getting the rhac book this week or next, and I am going to read the whole thing from cover to cover. I really do appreciate your help, and if I sound at all rude it is only because I am talking over a computer.

Now back to my topic. I would never have guessed inbreeding to be done so widely. I am going to try to avoid this at all cost, but like niccoliherp mentioned if I do happen across a desirable trait I want to breed back that would be the time I would do it if I had to.

Thanks again for all your help. I know how it feels to try to help someone who has not researched and feels like there way is the best way whatever they do. I have to do this on other forums I am a part of. It does get old. Just trust me when I say I have tried my hardest to not be one of those people.


TS

 

[niccoliherp]

Youre welcome.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Inbreeding, although it certainly occurs in our community, is not a desirable thing. It is at times necessary when trying to reproduce a rare trait or a rare species. And even then, there are proper ways to go about it so as to minimize the amount of inbreeding that occurs. But with something like a crested geckos, where there are tons of bloodlines available and at very cheap prices, there's really no excuse for it IMHO. I think you'll find that most serious breeders will go well out of their way to diversify their bloodlines as much as possible.

As for breeding cresties because there's not a lot of them in the hobby...think again. The market is flooded with them. I agree that they're a great gecko to start with. But because they're so easy to breed, everyone and their brother does it (like leos or bearded dragons). I'm not trying to discourage you in any way, shape or form. But know the facts. One look at the gecko section at kingsnake.com classifieds and you'll see that every other ad is for cresties.

 

[niccoliherp]

Well said Riverside. I agree completely with you. I just wanted to add, although the cresteds are widely spread in the hobby, there are so many possibilities with this sp. that the appeal still continues, even for serious breeders. Because of the extensive genetic possibilities, coupled with a relatively short time in the hobby, there is always some new morph waiting just around the bend. I work with a few more exotic spp., but the cresteds are always exciting due to the fact that you never know what you're going to get.