Ptenopus garrulus

[Jaguar Gecko77]

Does anyone have any information on why this species is so rare in the states ive been looking for years and rarely see keepers. Also I don't think the're listed on Cites...although I could be wrong. Just curious if anyone knew.
Thanks
David-

 

[Ingo]

Exportation is illegal and breeding neither easy nor productive.
They produce a single egg well hidden deep inside a burrow.
I had a Ptenopus Trio for some years and never had breeding success, just found en empty egg shell once.

Ingo

 

[thorrshamri]

Do you have more info about laws forbidding Ptenopus species? Does it also concern the EU?

 

[Geitje]

Exportation is illegal and breeding neither easy nor productive.


Ingo

WRONG!

I had a Ptenopus Trio for some years and never had breeding success, just found en empty egg shell once.

HOW??? - if illegal?

These are not CITES listed species. They are not protected by EU treaty. Just rare, like most of the other 900+ species not currently in captivity.

Breeding is not easy nor productive? With what degree of confidence or experience can you put forth this premature assessment?

Jon

 

[thorrshamri]

I was wondering who was right lol and i found this:

http://www.met.gov.na/programmes/status/2003 checklist.pdf

Ptenopus garrulus and kochi are both listed as "secure" as regards populations status in Namibia, meaning no particular local protection applies. As underlined by Geitje, they are neither included in the CITES lists nor in the EU CE 338/97 act and later adjustments. As for many species in the world, they are just subjected to an exportation/importation permit when leaving Namibia:

Wild fauna and flora export/import permits

As for South African Ptenopus, there are populations in Kwa Zulu Natal which may be subjected to local protection but i will ask more info on a South African forum i am on.

As I am really interested in this species, i had a discussion with a member of the aforementioned forum and he said his own animals (implying it is legal to keep them at least in some of the SA States, as it is a Federal system with very different laws concerning reptile keeping from one state to another) were regularly breeding without unusual methods to trigger breeding -just a 6 or 8 weeks brumation period then mating seems to occur on a regular basis.

Dense Ptenopus populations seem to exist in Namibia, the question is: why aren't they imported more often?

I recently saw imported P. rangei in Paris which certainly come from Namibia too and what is more, from the same kind of habitats. So why WC rangei are found in Europe but not Ptenopus?

 

[Ingo]

WRONG!



HOW??? - if illegal?

These are not CITES listed species. They are not protected by EU treaty. Just rare, like most of the other 900+ species not currently in captivity.


Jon

Yes, they are neither protected by CITES nor by any Eu law. Thus importation is legal.

But I was talking about exportation.
To my best knowledge, neither Namibia nor South Afrca allows exportation of any wildlife and it is hard to ge an exceptional permit.
Afaik, most of "south african" wildlife legally imported into western countries in fact stems from southern Mozambique -no place for Ptenopus. But OK, who knows If all the animals exported from Mozambique were collected IN Mozambique.....
I also heard rumours about imports from Angola or Botswana, but these were really vague rumours. Do you know more???

However, obviously, you do not see any problem with exportation from Namibia or South Africa. Than please help me: How do I legally get wildlife out of these countries?

I admit that I am absolutely no expert on export and import regulations. Nor I am an expert on african geckos. In fact -if you forget about diverse Tarentola and P. turneri some 20 years ago- my Ptenopus so far were my only excurs into african Gekkonidae.
Also, I am not a proffessional herper or herpetologist. Just an enthusiastic hobbyist with some help from a phD in Biology.
Thus I in fact may be wrong. On the other hand, I did not expect someone with your reputation, Jon Boone, to react such rudely on a few simple, maybe naive, thoughts of someone with at least a bit of experience and knowledge.

I would be so glad to hear, I am wrong with the assumptions I posted above. But If I am, please specify why. That would help me to learn and do better.

So far I was believing, that the regulations I mentioned are one reason, why so few Ptenopus are available in Europe or the US.

Breeding is not easy nor productive? With what degree of confidence ........can you put forth this premature assessment?

Well, till now, I was thinking, if there is a place for sharing even premature thoughts, it might be an internet forum. Sorry, If I was wrong.
But then, I guess, 68% of all forum posts worldwide might better be deleted.

Dumb as I am, from a combination of paperwork and personal experience in this case, I thought, breeding productivity might be in fact an issue limiting wide captive distribution of Ptenopus species.
According to literature, they produce as single egg at not so well known frequency. At least it seems to be seasonally restricted and thus I dared to assume, it never might be productive in captivity.

For reference, I quote a paper to start with:

HIBBITTS Toby J. ; PIANKA Eric R. ; HUEY Raymond B. ; WHITING Martin J. (2005)Ecology of the Common Barking Gecko (Ptenopus garrulus) in Southern Africa. Journal of herpetology, vol. 39, no3, pp. 509-515

Also, since they typically deposit their eggs in a tunnel digged from the tunnel they inhabit, you cannot find eggs without disturbing the animals a lot.
Thus I do not think it is advisable, to dig for eggs too often, which reduces the chance to get eggs for incubation in an incubator.
Or do you know of some trick to finde eggs without interfering with the animals? Please be so kind and tell me.
When it comes to gecko breeding, I by far do not have your experiences, but also am not a newbie. In fact, I bred my first Tarentola in 1973 and saince then had success with quite a number of species.

Breeding is not easy nor productive? With what degree of ........ experience can you put forth this premature assessment?

Coming to Ptenopus, I had a trio of P. maculatus (or if you want, P. garrulus maculatus). When I aquired them, they were not in best shape, so I skipped one hibernation to build them up nicely. After relatively cold hibernation in the next winter, the male started calling, but I did not see any signs of gravidity for the females. In late summer I could not resist in digging and found an empty egg shell, but no baby at all. The next year, everything went similar, but I found no egg. Than, the male deceased ( in fact, I killed him by relocating a larger stone in the enclosure :-x) and I was not able to find a replacement. Thus, I traded the females for some Diplodactylus.

Now, Jon, I fully accept that you are much more an expert in Ptenopus biology and legal regulations than I am. But I still have an eye on this genus. Thus, please tell me, how to productively breed Ptenopus and how to find animals legally exportet from their habitat.
What are all the secrets you know? Please do not keep them for ever.

Ingo

P.S.: @ Thorshammri: Did your friend tell you anything about the number of babies he got per pair and year???

 

[thorrshamri]

Ingo,
I have checked on Google then on SA reptiles.ZA, no national regulation in Namibia exists as far as I can see to forbid reptile exportations.
As you said, permits can be difficult to get but a while ago, some Europeans managed to import venomous snakes (Naja nivea and other species) from RSA.
I also got confirmation by la Ferme Tropicale in Paris that their Palmatogecko (or Pachydactylus) rangei specimens are wild-caught and very likely to come from Namibia.
In RSA there are "internal" keeping regulations, for example in Northern Cape Province if my memory is good, no reptile of any kind is allowed for keeping while other RSA states allow almost everything including venomous snakes, indigenal fauna and large boïds.
My friend told me he had 5 babies a year, if I remember well some of those babies died soon after hatching but this is a quite common thing with many gecko species, isn't it?
So why don't I find WC Ptenopus in Paris while they sell WC rangei?

 

[Pierre]

LA FERME TROPICALE » Animaux » Palmatogecko rangei
"spécimens sub-adulte né en captivité" means:"sub-adult captive bred specimen"...

I also got confirmation by la Ferme Tropicale in Paris that their Palmatogecko (or Pachydactylus) rangei specimens are wild-caught and very likely to come from Namibia.

i wonder how did you get that weird information.:shock:

 

[thorrshamri]

LA FERME TROPICALE » Animaux » Palmatogecko rangei
"spécimens sub-adulte né en captivité" means:"sub-adult captive bred specimen"...


i wonder how did you get that weird information.:shock:

From Karim himself on the phone, i was interested by a female and he told me he had a 5cm WC female for sale...
Remember their site is not always updated with new arrivals
I suppose he ahs had both CB and WC specimens for sale...

 

[Pierre]

Karim,himself,told me earlier today that he has 5 CB pairs only,from a Dutch breeder.
he also told me that it's not impossible to get some WC Palmatogecko rangei but in that case price would be a lot higher...

 

[Ingo]

P. rangei is quite easy to breed and thus cb specimens are more and more available. I have not seen any w.c.s this year.


Ingo

 

[thorrshamri]

I have just phoned them again, the shop assistant girl confirms the female i told about earlier is WC...

 

[thorrshamri]

Lol sorry for multiple posts but :

-the rangei female in fact comes from the USA so i was told she was "imported"...=> she is not WC but CB in the US and thus imported by Karim from out of the UE, that is the reason of the confusion.

-I have just asked Karim for Ptenopus import possibilities to France, he said it is possible from RSA but not from Namibia, and that WC Ptenopus would be around € 500-600 for a pair. He underlined that for such geckos he is not ready to pay such a high price, that is why he doesn't want to import them for now unless someone absolutely wants some.

 

[Geitje]

I normally do not waste my time bantering with topics on these forums due to the obvious problems associated with doing so. But interest in the genus remains quite high and therefore I’m assuming a lot of people will be reading a thread that discusses availability and breeding of Ptenopus. I know I do. So, in order to keep the facts straight for a wide audience, there’s nothing wrong with letting the audience know when one of the participants throws out false information. If that comes across as rude, it’s not intended to be. You stated something that was wrong and with no foundation for doing so. I’m not interested to pick a fight, just pick out a false statement and call you out on it – in hopes of getting an educated (and hopefully based in experience) and accurate answer for everyone reading. At the end of the day, everyone is happy in knowing the truth and not being misled on topics they might be quite interested in.

Australian geckos are illegal – am I to say that anything currently held in captivity is illegal? In fact, most countries do protect their animals in some fashion. New Caledonia does not export either, but several people have made legal exports out of this country. The same goes for numerous other countries.

<<< I would be so glad to hear, I am wrong with the assumptions I posted above. But If I am, please specify why>>>

There is enough information currently detailed in this thread to answer the basics of your questions on legality. As for particular methods of applying for permits and other legal matters, this forum is not the place for that.

<<< Now, Jon, I fully accept that you are much more an expert in Ptenopus biology and legal regulations than I am. But I still have an eye on this genus. Thus, please tell me, how to productively breed Ptenopus and how to find animals legally exportet from their habitat.
What are all the secrets you know? Please do not keep them for ever.>>>

The biggest difference between us is that you are willing to share your [apparently limited] experiences with this species, whereas I like to know what I’m talking about 100% before I set down at my keyboard and throw out potentially wrong or speculative information. They’re not so difficult to breed once you find a happy medium for both keeper and gecko. Digging for thin, fragile eggs in knee-deep sand is not a husbandry practice I would recommend for these and other (ex. Teratoscincus, Chondrodactylus, etc.) similar species. Try getting animals accustomed to alternate husbandry practices (very shallow sand) so that the ease of finding your Ptenopus eggs are simplified. It is never truly necessary to duplicate any gecko’s natural environment 100% in captivity. Geckos have adapted to broad variety of harsh environmental conditions, particularly desert dwelling species. It’s pointless to rebuild the Kalahari in your terrariums, or to unnecessarily run the temps up to 120 F. during the day. Find a comfortable medium and make slight modifications as necessary.

Do you understand that “does not allow exportation” and “permits are hard to get” are two different, almost contradicting, statements? Ptenopus has been legally exported out of Mozambique AND South Africa.

 

[Ingo]

OK, got it.
Sorry, the legal part was really new to me.
All the response I got from the people I asked here in Germany was that RSA and Namibia do not let them out.
I was not aware that this was premature or wrong information-my fault.
But still not so easy to believe, because I think, I did ask the right people.
BTW, if exports from RSA and Namibia are no problem, where are all the non protected but highly searched for cordylid species?

And sorry, a big "WRONG" without further comments is not the way I use to communicate.
Maybe it just is because I am not a native speaker, but I really did not like your way to respond. All CAPS......that leaves a certain impression and triggers a certain reaction.

With respect to husbandry, we obviously also follow different philosophies. No need to further discuss that.
I will continue to do it my way and you do it yours.
In fact I personally get much more satisfaction from naturalistic microhabite construction with thriving animals in them than from most efficient breeding in racks or semisterile setups.
Most of my animals do breed readily and regularily though. Some do so since decades. Breeding in complex setups may be less easily controllable but still delivers more cb animals than I need or want. I am a hobbyist, not a seller. So, for the well established species, I do not care much and just raise a handful of babies here and then. The rest gets eaten or I destroy the eggs.
Natural behaviour and naturalistic setups, thats what I can watch hours a day.
I am convinced, Ptenopus breeding is possible even with this philosophy.
But such things are just my personal motivation, and are driving the hobby for me.
I am learning more and more that here I am kinda the exception from the rule and that most people do more center on comprehensive collections in minimalistic type of setups.
Not my thing, but OK.
I am getting off topic.


Back to barking gex:
Three unsuccessful years of trying to get a group of Ptenopus to breed in fact is far no reason to publish a paper on husbandry and I would never do that with such a limited basis.
But to me it is still worth sharing in a forum, especially if dealing with a species, not so many keepers have experiences with.
Maybe I should have more clearly stressed that my personal experience lacks good statistics. Having had just single male in the group, which never was the fittest of the three necessarily provides a thin data set.
I guess, you are right, we have different opinions on forums.
And maybe, you are also right, saying, I chat too much.
That may be true.....I do so, because it helps me in stress release, and currently I do have a lot of that.

Ingo

 

[Geitje]

I did not say that exports from RSA and Namibia are no problem. I said that Ptenopus has been legally exported out of Mozambique and South Africa, just to keep the facts straight. Cordylus species present a whole different set of problems – all are CITES II listed species, some are SARDB (South Africa Red date book) listed, and so on. If you feel your statements are premature or wrong, reserve them for later until truth or fact may be realized, then share. We all like our animals and enjoy learning about them from factual input and sound observations. Nobody likes to read false or poor information about animals they intend to keep. It can be critically penalizing with live animals.


<<< With respect to husbandry, we obviously also follow different philosophies. No need to further discuss that. I will continue to do it my way and you do it yours>>>

You know nothing about the way I keep my animals or how I keep Ptenopus (or if I even keep them). Or, at least no questions have ever been asked or answered. Nevetheless, your statement of us both “doing it our own ways” sounds fair enough;-)
....................

 

[Ingo]

OK, lets stay it like that.
I did neither want nor expect a discussion like that when I responden to the first qa..
Way to close to quarreling for me.
I think, I´d better take some time off this forum.
Some may appreciate that.

And Jon, you are a public person and thus there is some info available on your setups :biggrin:

Ingo

 

[thorrshamri]

Jon => You have a pm

 

[PassPort]

boys, play nice....

Jon is completely right. There is no need to 100% replicate a geckos natural environment for it to be happy in captivity. All it takes is a naturalistic viv that meets it needs with plenty of space, good temps/humidity. Just because Ptenopus is a burrowing species does not mean it needs 12"+ of sand to burrow in. In the wild they only burrow that deep to avoid extreme temperatures and predators. What happens when both of those are removed? Ah yes, the need for a burrow that runs 2' underground and 5' long disappears.

Please do not take my opinion as actual advice on this wonderful species (seeing as that I've never kept them and only seen a handful in person), but as more of a general fact about most if not all reptiles.

 

[ptenopus]

i keep mine on cardboard

I do it to keep up with the dudes who keep their geckos on egg crates.