Bad news...

[GenaVorn]

???

If you read my comment I clearly marked that : " I am against illegal exportation and extraction of any kind of animals from wild..."

Thousand people involved in this hobby .This new posts pop up almost every month , that somebody tryed to smugle # of animals (species) !You complitelly critisize my opinion about this topic. So what would be your resolution ?! Even , if you put every caught person in jail , it will not work!
Somebody will find the way how to smugle animals from the country.Prices will be higher , demand even higher = You'll get more animals illigally caught and iligally exported from country , because now we are talking about serious MONEY.
Definatelly more proffesional smuglers will be involved.In this case wild population looking for serious trouble !
You mentioned in you post :"I'm pretty sure the individuals poached were from a managed reserve area, and so were not facing extinction ".
If this is a case why NZ goverment can't make a quote for NZ breeders extract and breed animals with rights of selling captive born (in NZ) for exportation overseas.
Critics and punishment WILL NOT WORK

I'd like to ask you again what would be your opinion How to resolve this problem ?!

P.S. I was proffesional biologist and I saw similar programs at work .
Something has to be done ....

Gena V

There are already captive populations of these species in New Zealand. Captive populations overseas are worse than useless, as overseas animals can never contribute to the gene pool of wild populations. There's too many risks of introducing a disease to a wild population from an individual that has been in other countries. Then you get poachers permanently removing wild animals from population, reducing the genetic diversity of the wild population.

Legal breeding of individuals overseas in order to reduce the pressure of poachers will never work for rare, slow breeding animals. The animals breed so slowly that the demand for poached animals will be just as strong as ever. Also if by some miracle you managed to breed enough animals for the demand, there would be very little variation among the captive population (founders effect), so there woud still be strong demand for wild-sourced animals with higher variation.

Also regarding your last statement, I'm pretty sure the individuals poached were from a managed reserve area, and so were not facing extinction. The biggest threat that population faced was from poaching, and it may now face extinction because of poaching. Don't glorify the poacher, they are in it for personal gain, not the good of the animals they poach.

 

[GeckoTom]

Professional catching and selling just for money is bad! These men are not interested in breeding or keeping or having them in healthy conditions, they caught the animals just for the money, or dont you know them? Do you think it is so or do you think it is different Vegetarian joh, who never eats fish?

Taking one or two pairs for own breeding, collecting them with a permit or getting it from a breeder, I would be thinking is great. A low risk for the animal, one day of travel in good conditions. Not packed them in plastic tubes when pregnant without proper space and air!

Resetting them in the wild is always a problem Ruru, it doesn´t work here and it won´t work in New Zealand, because all animals that are captivebred are infected with lots of stuff and are not really fit to renaturate. Belive us, we have tried this many more times than you in NZ. You in NZ have the opportunity that you have destroyed only 70 % of the land for sheep and deer and agriculture, we have destroyed 95%, but that is all the difference.
Do you really keep and breed your animals for letting them free in nature??

In Europe this will be forbidden, because a captive bred animal is not allowed to let free in nature and that is for good reasons!

And where it happend with common interests and payed from species protecting fonds, it never worked out to be successful. That is the experience from several projects.
Good luck for you and your animals!

Best Tom

 

[Ruru]

No need to say you're educated, it should be obvious in the way you discuss the topic.

There are already many captive animals in NZ, lots of them are part of breeding programs too. My suggestion would be to divide the captive animals into two catergories; the animals of known geneology that can be used in captive breeding for reintroduction, and the animals who have unknown origin and so can never be reintroduced (and neither can their offspring). Individuals with unknown origins can be sold into the pet trade and used for education of the public etc. Known origins animals can be kept by knowledgable breeders who are strong advocates of conservation and they could be used in structered breeding programs.

As I'm sure you'll want to point out, theres a major flaw with this. Its really expensive to get genetic work done, so every captive animal cannot be tested. Also when money is involved, breeders may get decietful and say they don't know the animal's origins just so they can make a quick buck.

To be truthful, the current method would work great so long as the government had a suitable punnishment as a deterrent, and an improved method of catching the poachers. Keep in mind the NZ reptiles are in decline nationwide (except in mammal free zones) and most of them are either threatened, vulnerable or endangered. Do you think NZ reptiles should become extinct in the wild so that a bunch of people around the world can gloat to their friends about having some as pets? But I'm sure plenty of people on this forum will disagree with me...

 

[GeckoTom]

Most of us would be happy to have good populations in the wild, but when I think about the possums and rats .....

There should be a good living together, the enthusiasts and the nature and when I think that many NZ breeders seperate their males and femals, because not to breed them, because there are no people who wants them, I am thinking aboout the breeders and the law ...!

Like it is in Australia, that you poison thousands of parrots and shoot them but dont allow one to be exported is the wrong way

Tom

 

[Ruru]

I admit the animals I keep now will not be released, but that is because they fall into the bracket of having unknown origins. I started keeping NZ reptiles because I want to become part of a breeding program for some of the rarer species, which I can't do until I've proved to the Department of Conservation that I am able to look after the more common varieties. I have also used these animals for advocacy, by taking them into university and showing them to the public also.

 

[GeckoTom]

I admit the animals I keep now will not be released, but that is because they fall into the bracket of having unknown origins. I started keeping NZ reptiles because I want to become part of a breeding program for some of the rarer species, which I can't do until I've proved to the Department of Conservation that I am able to look after the more common varieties. I have also used these animals for advocacy, by taking them into university and showing them to the public also.

So you are not really having them "for the animals health and care" just for the "getting the rarer species and showing them to others" type

Thats just like here! Only that you have really easy access to the animals compared to us!

 

[Southernman]

3 More Poachers caught in New Zealand

Good grief, within a month of a German tourist caught, we've had another German, a Swiss & a Spanaird caught with 16 Jewelled gecko's. They're all facing prison & hefty fines.
I feel sorry for the gecko's as 9 of them were gravid & most have now produced still born babes!

We have beautiful gecko's in NZ, especially the Naultinus, but with all the trafficing going on we're reviewing our laws & penalties to make them more of a deterrant.

Check out this beautiful brown male Jewelled gecko from the McKenzie country.

 

[Ruru]

So you are not really having them "for the animals health and care" just for the "getting the rarer species and showing them to others" type

Thats just like here! Only that you have really easy access to the animals compared to us!

I'm sorry if I gave you that impression. Would it help you to understand my view point if I said my lifes career is in conservation? My animals aren't pets (I have pet rats for that), and they certainly aren't for bragging rights as you suggest. I keep them so I can learn from them and so that I can show other NZers that there's more to NZ fauna than Kiwi and Tuatara. When I get rare species, I will become part of a breeding for release program, so that my animals have a good chance of being where they belong. Truth is, I feel sorry that the animals I keep now will never know freedom. If I could release them to somewhere safe, I would.

 

[oli]

I think that these smugglers should be fined heavily and have this fine put toward conservation. This is obviously their 'livelyhood' since these low-life's cannot get a real job. One can argue that this is a victim-less crime, but the country and all it's people suffer, as do the reptiles. The reprecussions should far outweigh the potential benefits of a smuggling operation. Send the message, it really will not be accepted, and a beat down should be accompanied by arrest as well, j/k but maybe it should. This is pure greed as the smugglers probably don't even own the animals, and obviously have no sympathy for being humane, and have no care about the value of life and this biodiversity. There is no money that can replace an animal that is extinct, jail terms won't bring them back either. There is a beauty in nature and its' asthetics that money can't mimic. Come live in a large city for some time and you will agree. These smuggling actions undermine the efforts to get the geckos to breed and re-populate santuaries and their local turf. And to the guy that said we don't know these people and their stories, obviously you know these individuals. They are crumbs that are doing big things by potentially ruining jewels for our earths future. Is there something we are missing? This is not rocket science bro, it's pretty cut and dry isn't it? There are no cures for cancer in these living beings that could help thousands of people's lives. So what do we not know about these stories? Please enlighten us. Without wild populations, the future of captive populations will not even exist some time down the line with inbreeding being inevitable, think before you speak next time.

 

[oli]

joh, do I eat fish? Of course I eat fish. This isn't a fish forum though, and there are farm raised fish now-a-days, if you haven't heard yet man has indeed created sustainable aquaculture and it has been around for decades. Stay on the topic here, how come you haven't responded back Mr. 13 posts? I mean, come on, what are your groundbreaking words that is gonig to crack your case and make all of us sigh? Why shouldn't we be discussing this openly, seriously let us know? What are you talking about? And to call other forum members' remarks humorous because of how much they don't know.

 

[luc]

Hey Oli how do you think that the ancesters of all those australian species and the naultinus you own have entered your country ?

 

[oli]

I'm not saying that I believe all my animals bloodlines came legally into the U.S., I did not trace their heritage back to the wild caught animals. Parts of their genetics were probably brought legally, others illegally. I know that the animals that I own are all captive bred and that I obtained them legally. That does not mean that i condone diminishing the wild populations of a specie that's fate isn't looking very positive. There's a difference between the love of the art and the love of cash. There is also a difference between myself and one that knowingly takes an endangered specie from it's environment without caring that he is part of an animals extinction. Plus this guy also doesn't care about the well-being of the animal as long as it is undetected and makes it oversees alive so that he can profit. I see your point of course and there is a fine line here and it makes for a wonderful debate of how there should be controlled export of species and all. And the legality of the matter is really irrelevant to me as it is just the principal of first degree contributing to an animals extinction in the wild. I would love to contribute to a program that introduces controlled cb offspring back into the wild, I think that would be great, but would be very discouraging if some clown like this guy came through to just nullify these efforts.

 

[GeckoTom]

... the aquaculture fish is really bad for the nature!

 

[oli]

yeah and the wild one's taste better too and are healthier. It doesn't have to be bad for the environment if done properly and the natural fish populations aren't stripped is all I was saying since this guy brought up eating fish. Don't want to get off topic though.

 

[DDReptiles]

I think that these smugglers should be locked up and charged with serious crimes with hefty fines and their possessions should be liquidated and put toward conservation. This is obviously their 'livelyhood' since these low-life's cannot get a real job. One can argue that this is a victim-less crime, but the country and all it's people suffer, as do the reptiles. Smuggling one gravid female should be equivalent to smuggling 3, no questions. If you aren't aware of what is gravid, too bad, ignorance should be severly punished. Make these shmucks an example of what a piece of shit really looks like and what will happen to those that dare to make a little cash. The reprecussions should far outweigh the potential benefits of a smuggling operation. Send the message, it really will not be accepted, and a beat down should be accompanied by arrest as well, j/k but maybe it should. This is pure greed as the smugglers probably don't even own the animals, and obviously have no sympathy for being humane, and have no care about the value of life and this biodiversity. There is no money that can replace an animal that is extinct, jail terms won't bring them back either. There is a beauty in nature and its' asthetics that money can't cover. Come live in a large city for some time and you will agree. These smuggling actions undermine the efforts to get the geckos to breed and re-populate santuaries and their local turf. These people should be charged with more than just smuggling. And to the guy that said we don't know these people and their stories, obviously you know these individuals. They are crumbs that are ruining jewels for the future of our earth. Is there something we are missing? This is not rocket science bro, it's a cut and dry case here. There are no cures for cancer in these living beings that could help thousands of people's lives. So what do we not know about these stories? Please enlighten us. Without wild populations, the future of captive populations will not even exist, just think before you speak next time.

Damn Oliver, seems a bit harsh/hypocritical for someone with the species you have listed in your signature. Who do you think the smugglers are smuggling for??

I agree smuggling wild animals is wrong (like someone else said, atleast smuggle CB animals from a breeder in the country), but to put them in the same category as murderer's is a bit harsh. I do agree that the current charges smugglers face are too weak, but I wouldn't go as far as throwing them in a cell and throwing away the key.

 

[oli]

I can say I haven't bought a smuggled animal. Smuggling CB animals I would say is better than taking from an exhausted wild population. I guess your point that most of all the reptiles we have come from smuggled lines somewhere down the line is truth, but smuggling wild endangered geckos? Murderers? I'm not sure where you got that from, or that whole throw away the key thing, but yeah I do think the fines and penalties should be much greater than they are. I'm more for a controlled export of cb animals rather than stuffing geckos into pvc pipes

 

[willbenn]

if there wasn't a large demand, people wouldnt take a chance smuggling these animals. yes, there would probably still be a few die hard enthusiasts that would still take a chance but it certainly wouldnt be worth it for those out to make a quick buck. its like a drug dealer/smuggler, they are only in business because people want their product. the only way this will ever change if is we all stop coveting these animals. we are the oxygen that fuels the fire, not the other way around.

 

[oli]

yeah I guess a lot of the stuff I said was pretty harsh. sorry if i offended anybody. i just feel for endangered animals especially, but all animals as a whole. The situations make me sad about the state of the Earth. But I feel good about having some cool reptiles that I can spoil and hopefully offer the joy that I get from them to others.

 

[GeckoTom]

All this blabberers about animal protection and care.

All geckos and New Zealand animal life should be conserved!

I really coult vomit! Today the NZ government said that they will think about accepting the whale shooting of the Norway and Japanese ships!

That really says a lot of the government of a country and of their meaning of their native animals and animals that belong to the whole world and I really wish from my heart that all the animals of New Zealand would be smuggeld and taken away, so not even New Zealand has them in their property!

Maybe that is the way you like! Maybe that is the way you should think about the future of animals! Maybe that is a way that is you should think about conserving animals for your childs! Maybe that is the future, just thinking about yourself and not the children of the world!

Good luck all smugglers and thieves!
BBC News - New Zealand calls for whaling compromise
a compromise would be the solution, like the NZ people or Murray McCully said, maybe there should be a regulated number of NZ geckos going out of the country, like the whales, lets say 1000 of every species, a year! I think that is not too much compared to the whales the Norway and Japan is killing every year! Just for the sciences , of course, just for the taking of information and helping for a overpopulation! of course! *vomit*

Please never ever let talk any of the NZ people about conservation, please dont!

Best wishes from a very disenchanted
Tom