Another idiot gets caught

WingedWolfPsion

New member
Is the hunger of people to own, propagate, and establish reservoir populations of rare species really a bad thing?

Does it matter what their motivations are? The more valuable an animal is, the more likely it is to be well taken care of. Value is often equated with monetary value--that isn't going to change. The end result is the same, regardless of the motivation, isn't it?

Look how green anoles are being treated in the industry right now. This is a troubled little lizard, its habitat is being overrun by aggressive invasive species, and its numbers in the wild, while still very high, are in obvious decline.

It's sold for a buck a piece, and used as feeder for lizard-eating snakes.

I love green anoles, personally, and when I actually have the room for non-business herps, I will keep and breed them. They're terrific animals, and they make great display subjects for a planted viv. While I'm not familiar with the species you listed, I can honestly say that yes--I will be interested in keeping and propagating animals that have low monetary value, simply because they're not commonly bred, and because they're interesting in their own right.

One of the species on my personal wish list is the desert night lizard, Xantusia vigilis. It's probably worth about $5, or at least it was the last time I saw one available. I want to establish a breeding colony of these animals. I find them interesting, and no one else is doing it. That's reason enough for me. If I had the opportunity to breed an endangered species, it wouldn't matter to me if it was worth 50 cents--I would jump at the opportunity, provided I felt up to the challenge.

I do own a reptile business, and I do select species that have a high price tag--but that alone is not the only reason I choose to work with species.

The very sad truth is that sometimes the first images we see of these animals may be the last images we ever see of them, if they aren't grabbed into captivity and bred fairly quickly. The areas where new species are discovered are frequently troubled--and too often, they're disappearing at a staggering rate of speed.
Hogg Island boa--a dwarfed form of the boa constrictor. Extinct on Hogg Island now, but available in the US rather readily. What this means is that if the island is ever restored, even in part, there will be a population of these animals available to be returned to it.

Conservationists claim that they would never accept animals bred by private breeders into any restoration program. This is a lie. When the conservation programs do not have the animals in the zoo system, and they go extinct in the wild, they go straight to private owners looking for them. They've done this many, many times. They'll even take a hybrid if the species is truly gone. By keeping meticulous records, reptile keepers can make it easier in case conservationists do need to come knocking looking for a species that has been otherwise lost.

Money isn't bad. Putting a high price tag on an animal isn't bad, either. Things with a high monetary value are generally well-cared-for in this era, if not necessarily in previous ones. This isn't the age of people who acquire expensive animals to show off, but don't care if they die in a week. Folks in the reptile hobby baby their most expensive animals like the living jewels that they are. And those species can only benefit from this attention--an animal's value only gets that high when it can be propagated in captivity.

Take draco lizards--they're not worth thousands because we haven't figured out how to keep and propagate them yet. They're one of the most interesting families of lizards in the world, but you don't see them imported often--just a trickle. And you don't see them selling for huge figures. Only a few dedicated people try to work out the issues with them each year. The moment that problem is solved, their monetary value will go through the roof. It happened with chameleons. The herp community wants species that it can successfully keep and propagate--it doesn't want species that won't thrive in captivity. As a result, those species are less likely to be sold in numbers to the pet trade. You don't see huge numbers of fragile imports in pet stores the way you used to.

The large numbers of people in the private sector who have the skill to keep these delicate animals alive and thriving are a new thing--and their numbers are growing. Private sector people will learn about species zoos aren't even working with, and their knowledge will wind up coming around to help conserve those species, don't doubt it. Being a herpetoculturist is not contrary to being a conservationist.
 

DDReptiles

New member
I may get angry criticism for this post, but dare I say that I almost wished HR669 had passed. .

While I don't agree that HR669 should of passed like it was originally drawn up, I do think a lot of these species should require special permitting systems. I don't think responsible reptile keepers should have to suffer the consequences from a select few idiots. I do believe a permitting system would if nothing else make the hobby better from a public relations point of view, as well as stop the everyday joe blow from picking up a hatchling burmese or retic not knowing what he/she is getting into.


As far as morals. How many of you would turn down the chance to acquire a few Saltuarius moritzi, or Phyllurus kabikabi (two Aussie natives described as recently as 2008)? Hmmmm?.

For a leaftail guy you ask a tough question :biggrin: But honestly, they are very similar to the species already available. I do think establishing a captive population of them as a backup would be the smart thing to do. I have tried contacting people in the Queensland gov’t about legally exporting animals to breed outside of Australia and then setting up some sort of program that would allow the sale of the offspring into the trade (furthering a captive population) and then using that money to protect the surrounding habitat. A lot of these Australian leaf tail species are limited to a few mountaintops and most of their habitat is surrounded by private land (mostly cleared farming land).

I think the line as to what is acceptable to be "owned" as a "pet" was crossed long long ago.

Speaking for myself, I will say I don't consider many of my geckos "pets". A pet to me is a dog or a cat that I can go run with at the park. Don't get me wrong, I love my reptiles just as much as the next guy....they are all I live and breathe. But to me they are more like representatives of their species.

Can anyone who owns any of the Naultinus, Hoplodactylus, and Saltuarius spp. honestly with a clean conscience tell me that they would bother with them in the first place if there was zero chance of a profit?

While the species you list are expensive, they are really not “profit” animals. I personally keep Saltuarius wyberba and I can say I will be lucky if I break even with my initial investment in them. I make ten times more money breeding crested geckos than I do a lot of these rarer species. So yes I can say I would still work with my wyberba, platurus, caudinnulatus, what have you; even if there was a zero chance of making a profit. But sure I would like to recoup what I initially invested in them, as well as bring in some money to help pay for the caging, food, and labor they require.

Thanks Derek
 
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willbenn

New member
very interesting and thought provoking thread, although i personally don't see the connection with drugs, murder, or burglary. does anyone honestly think that joe bob taking a lizard from the wild is the same as him stealing a lizard from someones collection? i know that most animals are specific to certain places and feel these areas (countries, states, whatever) should be proud of their local fauna, but i dont think any animal is "owned" by that specific place. that would mean we are all "owned" by the country where we were born (or live).

personally, i am torn by this topic. both sides are right, and both sides are wrong. one thing i know for certain is that people like this man with the lizards, or people like us reptile enthusiasts, are not the main reason for the decrease in wild populations. its the people that turn a blind eye to urban sprawl, clear cutting of forests, destruction of habitat for human use, etc. i dont think what this man did was right, but i certainly dont believe his actions really effect the wild populations. i know there are exceptions to every rule, but they are exactly that, exceptions. there are millions more lizards/snakes/turtles/frogs that are killed/affected as a result of human interference not related to collecting, than there are from any collecting attempts. when joe bob walks through an area, he sees and collects 5 lizards. the next day when a bulldozer rolls through the area, it kills the 50-500 lizards that joe didnt see.
 
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