Mourning Geckos (Lepidodactylus lugubris) jaw problems

[gecko.hale]

[FONT=&quot]I do not have captive geckos, but we do have lots of geckos both inside and outside our house. I have quite a few mourning geckos living in the windows, bookcases, orchid pots, and everyplace else that they find accommodating in our home.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]We are seeing a recurrent problem with them that is very distressing where their jaws seem to be broken. At first we thought that they had been caught by one of the gold dust day geckos that we also have in abundance around the place, as the "greenies" seem to really dislike both our house geckos and the mourning geckos. But this has occurred with so many of the mourning geckos now, many of whom seem to have no other indication of trauma, that we think there must be some other cause.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Sometimes there also seems to be a molting issue with hard sticky skin on their hands and feet that prevents them from climbing. I have one molter now whose mouth is always open, but only about 40 degrees or so. She is always thirsty due to not being able to close her mouth. And of course she cannot eat.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]One that just died a few days ago did have a broken tail and her mouth was bent all the way back to rest on her neck. There were no bite marks or other signs of trauma. It is possible she may have fallen or been knocked down, as she did live in the window, but she seems the exception.[/FONT]
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[FONT=&quot]Several have had humps on their back near their hips and we thought maybe they had been bitten and their backs damaged, along with their jaws. But again, no bite marks.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But some of them have just been unable to close their mouths with no other sign of damage -- no bite marks, no bruising, no sign of injury at all.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We have unfortunately seen too many of them injured by the "greenies" and there are almost always severe bite marks, usually on the head. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There was an older post by Elizabeth and Maurice that discussed weakened and/or broken jaws due to insufficient calcium in the diet of captive geckos and we have to wonder if something similar is not happening here. Obviously we don't have these geckos in captivity and they have chosen to live in our house, but are we interfering with their normal source of calcium somehow by providing fruit and water?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If we provide ground up calcium in a dish, would they eat it and would that help them? I have already started adding liquid Exo-Terra Calcium Supplement to their water since I read your posts, as I figure it can't hurt. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But we would appreciate any other advice anyone could give that might help prevent this problem. I really hate to see these lovely little creatures die so horribly.[/FONT]

 

[Palor]

Odds are most of the damage your seeing is from fighting. Both the day and house geckos will attack the smaller Mourning geckos.

If your really interested in feeding them something to help their bones, buy some Crested Gecko Diet, and mix in a little calcium, leave it in dishes where you know the geckos to be. My mourning geckos love CGD.

I know you can buy it from the Pangea website, I do not know if you can find any CGD locally.

 

[gecko.hale]

Aloha, Palor

Most of the time, they kill them or damage them so badly that they soon die. But they don't usually do so without leaving marks. The day geckos tend to just bite them -- and the smaller house geckos -- on the head and crush them, then leave them for dead. I have caught them with the gecko's middle in their mouths, tho.

We catch the most aggressive day geckos that attack other geckos and export them to another location about half a mile away. It's bad enough having them outside, but we don't want them in our house. The meanest ones will kill the female & smaller day geckos, too. And attack with intent to kill the more docile males. Some of these guys are just nasty.

I will probably have to order the CGD, as there are not many reptile supplies available here. You can't bring any reptiles in, and it is illegal to even keep the day geckos as pets. But it will be useful to have non-live food on hand to feed the hurt or ill ones if they will eat it. Do the day geckos and house geckos eat it, too? And all sizes? It has always been a problem finding something they will eat besides fruit and worms.

I did find some of that fine calcium powder (in the pink jar) and put some in a dish near their main hangout. I used to put gecko eggshells there and they would eat those all the time, but we ran out (we came across tons of them when we were remodeling). No one has explored the dish yet, tho.

Thanks again for the info! I am eager to try the CGD.

 

[gecko.hale]

Aloha, Palor

That is the Repashy Crested Gecko Diet you are referring to? Is the 7% phosphorus okay for them? I thought I read in some of the postings that the phosphorus was a problem for the mourning geckos?

I can see why they would like it -- honey, bee pollen, fig powder, wheat germ, spirulina, rosehips, marigold, rosemary ... sounds almost good enough to eat!

 

[Palor]

The House Geckos will not likely eat it, the Day Geckos likely will. Just set it out at night. The Mournings of all ages will enjoy the CGD.

Since I started feeding my Mournings CGD as part of their diet, egg production has skyrocketed. I think the phosphorus % is low enough to not bother them.

 

[gecko.hale]

CGD and eggs

Uh! We already have eggs everywhere! In our fans, windows, packed boxes, other storage, empty flower pots, everywhere there is a suitable (and sometimes not so suitable) spot! They have even laid them in our decorative teapots! On the inside ... they went in thru the spout!!

That's one advantage to the day geckos -- I can remove the eggs to a safer spot. :biggrin:

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi Sherron ~

I thought I recognized your name from the past!

To me softened jaws and back humps could point to MBD (metabolic bone disease). You can mix the calcium powder with their fruit. I realize these critters are not total captives. I am wondering whether they have become dependent upon you guys for their food and catch fewer insects.

Mourning geckos will fight between themselves. I have caught a mom dangling a hatchling while perched upsidedown on the screen top of their tank. At other times they seem to coexist. I even have two living with a mature crested gecko! They seem to keep different hours.

I think it is good that you care enough to relocate those aggressive day geckos one half mile away!

Sounds like you found the Rep-Cal Calcium in the pink jar. Good! There is also a human-grade liquid sweetened calcium supplement you could order through your pharmacy called Calcium Glubionate.

You might think this strange, but maybe you have a dentist who would x-ray one of your ailing mourning geckos with the back hump and a really damaged jaw. Then you could see the state of their bones. There is actually a Seattle-area dentist who performed some mouth work on an ailing turtle/tortoise recently!

Just some thoughts.

[FONT=&quot]I do not have captive geckos, but we do have lots of geckos both inside and outside our house. I have quite a few mourning geckos living in the windows, bookcases, orchid pots, and everyplace else that they find accommodating in our home.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We are seeing a recurrent problem with them that is very distressing where their jaws seem to be broken. At first we thought that they had been caught by one of the gold dust day geckos that we also have in abundance around the place, as the "greenies" seem to really dislike both our house geckos and the mourning geckos. But this has occurred with so many of the mourning geckos now, many of whom seem to have no other indication of trauma, that we think there must be some other cause.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Sometimes there also seems to be a molting issue with hard sticky skin on their hands and feet that prevents them from climbing. I have one molter now whose mouth is always open, but only about 40 degrees or so. She is always thirsty due to not being able to close her mouth. And of course she cannot eat.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]One that just died a few days ago did have a broken tail and her mouth was bent all the way back to rest on her neck. There were no bite marks or other signs of trauma. It is possible she may have fallen or been knocked down, as she did live in the window, but she seems the exception.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]Several have had humps on their back near their hips and we thought maybe they had been bitten and their backs damaged, along with their jaws. But again, no bite marks.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But some of them have just been unable to close their mouths with no other sign of damage -- no bite marks, no bruising, no sign of injury at all.[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]We have unfortunately seen too many of them injured by the "greenies" and there are almost always severe bite marks, usually on the head. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]There was an older post by Elizabeth and Maurice that discussed weakened and/or broken jaws due to insufficient calcium in the diet of captive geckos and we have to wonder if something similar is not happening here. Obviously we don't have these geckos in captivity and they have chosen to live in our house, but are we interfering with their normal source of calcium somehow by providing fruit and water?[/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]If we provide ground up calcium in a dish, would they eat it and would that help them? I have already started adding liquid Exo-Terra Calcium Supplement to their water since I read your posts, as I figure it can't hurt. [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot] [/FONT]
[FONT=&quot]But we would appreciate any other advice anyone could give that might help prevent this problem. I really hate to see these lovely little creatures die so horribly.[/FONT]

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

Look along the sides of their neck, you are wanting to locate the two calcium storage areas. They look like bulges of white just under the skin. If you find them even on the injured and dead geckos your issue is not quantity of calcium but lack of other nutrients. I suspect low calcium though or a general lack of smaller food availability. It is possible that dehydration is a factor, mourning geckos will drink from still water and providing a low dish will help cure many issues including the shedding problems. The crested gecko diet is ok, mine aren't thrilled with it but I do add it to the fruit baby foods I offer them.
Mixing grape jelly with calcium +vitaminD3 on a 1:1 ratio will get them eating Ca if they need it.

Maurice Pudlo

 

[gecko.hale]

Aloha, Elizabeth

Aloha, Elizabeth

Sorry it has taken me so long to get back to the forum! I was sure we had chatted on the GGA. You were really helpful with my little gold dust preemie, Li’i. I am still perplexed about the other more controversial subject that got the list really going, ‘though.

I really think you are correct about the MBD and the calcium. Although I know that they do fall prey to the larger house and GD day geckos (“greenies”), I think there are just too many with the jaw problem without any other evidence of damage. I have caught greenies with their mouth around a mourning gecko’s body, and those usually suffer broken backs as well as bite marks and bruises. I have also had small mourning geckos that have obvious contusions on their heads who did not survive. But I am finding way too many of them with just the jaw problem and nothing else.

I suspect the fighting between mourning geckos may be more common in captive populations than in my wild population. I’ve had as many as 6 or 7 on my table at one time (with the orchid pots for hideys and the supply basket that has been totally taken over), but I suspect there are probably more. Unless they have some deformity or are unusually marked, I do have trouble telling them apart -- and they come and go at will.

The larger ones will “tisk” at the smaller ones a lot, and I have seen them chase even hatchlings. But they always have stopped short of actually laying mouth to body, at least in my view (with one exception). Which is not to say that they won’t badger a smaller gecko right off the orchid pot or the table … but they usually come right back. Generally I have hatchlings, youngsters and adults all sharing the same table space. And since I added another orchid pot, they don’t do as much tisking now.

I think you are right that some of them are relying too much on us for food, 'though. Some do go in and out through our windows, open or closed (who knew they were just gecko highways?), so they do get outside insects at night. The ones that live inside and not in the windows, however, probably do not go outside to the best of my knowledge. There are bugs in our house – this is Hawaii and we have our doors and windows almost all the time, so it is impossible to keep them out. But I’m sure their selection is limited, particularly since there are a large number of greenies living inside our house, as well as house geckos – and they are all after the same bugs.

We have had one or two that live/lived in our flat panel TV, in other orchid pots around the house, and even just between the layers of our stereo/computer equipment stacks. And I am pretty sure they just hang right around their own area, with forays out to the fruit dish & water. I also try to keep a dish of papaya innards around so they can eat the fruit flies they attract, but that seems to appeal mostly to the younger ones. I do add the calcium drops to the water stations now, too.

They aren’t all brave enough to eat the mealworms we offer them, and it is usually a 1-on-1 situation where a gecko will pop up and we will fish out a worm or two to give to them. And a fair number of them go into the worm house themselves to get worms. So dusting the worms is a little problematic. But I have seen at least one of the mourning geckos rooting around in the dish of Rep-Cal Calcium, plus little footprints indicate others have done so, too. I presume they actually lick up the powder.

But I am so disheartened as we have had so many of them with the jaw and/or molting problems the last couple of months, so I only have a few left around my table. One little girl who used to hang out on my laptop table all the time is now dying with a broken jaw. She was the victim of aggression by greenies, however, as we saw her fall from the top of the window to the sill and she was obviously hurt. Her tail had just been bitten off … and her mouth was wide open. She now hides in the orchid pot during the day and comes out at night to sit by the water so she can drink, as she is terribly thirsty since she can’t close her mouth. And of course she cannot eat. She was my friendliest mourning gecko, so I am really sad about her.

I try to keep an eye on the greenies whenever I am around, which is most of the time I am not sleeping (I don’t leave the house much because of medical problems), but there are many of them and they are sneaky. There is no way to keep them out, however, as they can come and go even when the house is shut up tight. We still have some that lived inside when we bought this house back in 2006 and it had been closed up for months. Since the weather is mild, they don’t tend to build things too tightly here.

I have only had a few adult day geckos that I really liked (i.e., non aggressive, friendly, coexisted with the mourning & house geckos), but even they are harassed by the big male greenies. Right now we have a really nice one-armed male greenie living in our kitchen who finally found a mate and was really happy (after being chased out of every place else in the house) … but now we have an as yet unidentified greenie who is scaring both he and his mate, as well as a lot of the smaller greenies. And I have lost all my mourning geckos that were living in the kitchen window. Other than finding, catching & exporting the real aggressive ones, I just don’t know what to do about them. :sad:

I will look for the Calcium Glubionate at our pharmacy. I’m sure they would prefer the sweet liquid to the powder. Can they take it full strength or does it need to be diluted?

I don’t know about the dentist … I think our dentist would croak if I asked him to x-ray a gecko. Most people around here don’t think much of geckos since they are so many of them. If we still lived in southern California, I could take them to my exotics vet who did surgery & treated all kinds of unusual pets (geckos, frogs, squirrels, mice, hamsters, turtles, fish, etc.) ... but here? You are lucky to find a vet that treats anything other than cats & dogs. Maybe on Oahu … :roll:

Thanks for all your help and advice!

Hi Sherron ~

I thought I recognized your name from the past!

To me softened jaws and back humps could point to MBD (metabolic bone disease). You can mix the calcium powder with their fruit. I realize these critters are not total captives. I am wondering whether they have become dependent upon you guys for their food and catch fewer insects.

Mourning geckos will fight between themselves. I have caught a mom dangling a hatchling while perched upsidedown on the screen top of their tank. At other times they seem to coexist. I even have two living with a mature crested gecko! They seem to keep different hours.

I think it is good that you care enough to relocate those aggressive day geckos one half mile away!

Sounds like you found the Rep-Cal Calcium in the pink jar. Good! There is also a human-grade liquid sweetened calcium supplement you could order through your pharmacy called Calcium Glubionate.

You might think this strange, but maybe you have a dentist who would x-ray one of your ailing mourning geckos with the back hump and a really damaged jaw. Then you could see the state of their bones. There is actually a Seattle-area dentist who performed some mouth work on an ailing turtle/tortoise recently!

Just some thoughts.

 

[MauricesExoticPets]

Truth be told there is very little that could be done to mend your friendly mournong geckos jaw at this point.

I would strongly suggest that you alter the worm bedding to boost the worms nutritional content, mainly don't use oats as the base and limit wheat bran to reduce phytic acid levels which limit calcium uptake.

You can also make a mournong gecko hide that is more secure than the plants they now use. PVC pipe of the smallest diameter cut to 3 or 4 inches in length can be glued together in such a way as to provide some very secure hiding areas. Heck even a batch of straws might do the trick for hatchlings.

Another thing that might work is to feed the greenie meanies in a particular location away from the mourning geckos. A dish of meal worms might be all you need to get the larger ones looking elsewhere for regular food and water.

Captive mourning geckos under good care can live quite a long time, in the wild though life might not be a tenth of what it could be. While very sad, there is little you can do to prevent this. Captivity has its good side.

I'm sure you have isopods around your home, collect a few and look into breeding them on a diet very heavy in greens and or some other high calcium food. Isopods retain lots of minerals and can help provide some of what they are lacking.

I will think a bit more on it but you have a very unique situation that is quite different from what we do.