Crossbreeding Luii and hainanensis

[Frogeye611]

Does anyone know if breeding a luii and hananensis will result in fertile eggs. If so, what do the babies look like?

 

[geckomaster]

Hybridization is a touchy issue with many different takes. It may be possible, but to my knowledge hasn't been done. Just keep in mind some people are very opposed to such endeavors. There is a considerable lack of scientific data on the goniurosaurus species. Grismer and others have contributed heavily, and there was a 2007 study with more samples that shed a little more light, but lamented on the small number of specimens. They viewed hainanensis as a "sister taxon" to the mainland lichtenfelderi (they found there were probably separate migrations of the luii, hainanensis (formerly lichtenfelderi from mainland), and the bawanglingensis to the island). There is also some doubt as to the "purity" of the species kept in private collections and may be some genetic "pollution" if you will. So...that said, hybridization may lead to further confusion in an already murky breeding program. On the flip side any view of re-introducing captive critters to the wild to bolster the diminishing populations is quite unlikely, and the main advantage of captive programs is to take the strain off collection...that and the fact that 99% of all species on earth have gone extinct and that one day us, our planet, our star, galaxy, and even universe will be long gone and dominated by nothing more than voracious sucking black holes may lead you to say what the heck and try it anyway...up to you;-)

 

[Frogeye611]

Thanks for your reply. I am planning on keeping the Hainanensis pair I have as a breeding project. I am looking for a female or two of my Luii to start a project going. I appreciate your prompt response.

 

[geckomaster]

I think that would be the best choice as well. You don't see Luii getting imported anymore, but do see them for sale once in a while by breeders. General Exotics show them on their geckos for sale page as having had captive bred available, but are currently sold out. They do have a cool function where you could get an automated e-mail when they become available again. Also try tweeking your google search. Go to advanced functions and go down to date, time, etc... You can define your search to a specific time frame. Helps narrow down your results (that's how I found the General Exotics web page). Good luck with your projects and don't be too sad at the departure from your quest of creating the super goniurosaurus...poor thing would have probably come out with five legs or one eye

 

[Gexter]

Great info. Geckomaster. I have been keeping pairs of each for 2 years now and have been wondering the same thing the entire time. It would be interesting to attempt......he he he.

 

[geckomaster]

I would prefer you kept them in their original pairs and then sold/traded the babies to me:biggrin:

 

[Frogeye611]

I thought I'd keep you updated on my search for Luii and my Hainanensis project. No luck on finding Luii females or babies. My Hainanensis female laid six eggs this season, all of which have hatched. Two of the babies, one each from the first two clutches have orange banding which is getting brighter and more colorful every week. I am dying to see what the adults will look like. Have you heard of Hainanensis babies having orange stripes?

 

[geckomaster]

congrats on the hainanensis! It is common to see baby hainanensis born with a higher amount of orange in the striping, but it seems to fade most of the time, but not aways and is a trait that I'd like to see bred out in the near future. This trait along with aberrent striping (jungle) will likely be the first mutations bred within this species, very similiar as with the leos:biggrin:
As for luii there are some out there and I believe even in the recent classifieds here are some for sale. The topic of this thread though was in regard to crossbreeding and it appears in the earlier posts I forgot some of my basic biology. Ernst Mayr's definition of a species is still pretty much the standard and states they are "groups of actually or potentially interbreeding natural populations, which are reproductively isolated from other such groups". On the rare occasions they breed with species close to them (sister taxons would be included in this) then the resulting offspring are sterile, i.e. the mule. I believe the common ancestor of both hainanensis and luii to be far enough removed that even this hybrid is unlikey. The more interesting point in this would be the question of lichtenfelderi and hainanensis as separate species or subspecies themselves. Here's your grad school project. Go to Vietnam and then Hainan island respectively. Get a male and female of lichtenfelderi from vietnam and a male and female of hainanensis from the island, preferably in locations distant from each to avoid possible relation. Breed the male lichtenfelderi to the female hainanensis and vice versa for the other pair. If you have offspring from each pair breed them to each other. Do this a few times from different groups according to the scientific method and document the hell out of it. If you then from the second breedings have viable eggs and offspring they should be looked at again as possible subspecies, and if the "hybrids" are sterile resulting in no offsrping, then the argument can be advanced that the current classification is correct and that they are individual species that are unable to pass genes between each other which would also end the conversation on possible lichtenfelderi/hainanensis crosses, maybe.

I wish you continued success with you geckos and hope you find that luii soon!

mark

 

[Frogeye611]

Thanks for your reply and for more information. I have to add that in fact, the new babies do not have striping but have "banding" similar to the adults, just a different color. Here's hoping they retain the color. I guess I could be taking pictures of the babies as they mature and their colors change.

 

[hypnotoad]

Hybridization is a touchy issue with many different takes. It may be possible, but to my knowledge hasn't been done. Just keep in mind some people are very opposed to such endeavors. There is a considerable lack of scientific data on the goniurosaurus species. Grismer and others have contributed heavily, and there was a 2007 study with more samples that shed a little more light, but lamented on the small number of specimens. They viewed hainanensis as a "sister taxon" to the mainland lichtenfelderi (they found there were probably separate migrations of the luii, hainanensis (formerly lichtenfelderi from mainland), and the bawanglingensis to the island). There is also some doubt as to the "purity" of the species kept in private collections and may be some genetic "pollution" if you will. So...that said, hybridization may lead to further confusion in an already murky breeding program. On the flip side any view of re-introducing captive critters to the wild to bolster the diminishing populations is quite unlikely, and the main advantage of captive programs is to take the strain off collection...that and the fact that 99% of all species on earth have gone extinct and that one day us, our planet, our star, galaxy, and even universe will be long gone and dominated by nothing more than voracious sucking black holes may lead you to say what the heck and try it anyway...up to you;-)

haha fantastic. That's all I can tell myself not to go crazy about environmental issues sometimes.

 

[Frogeye611]

Decided not to hybridize the Luii and Hainanensis. Six Hainanensis babies hatched out of six, but two died. It seems that compared to Leos or Fat tails, I experienced more reluctance of the babies to start eating on their own. I had to feed them in deli cups, and even had to tease feed most of the six for varying periods of time. Once they started eating, the remaining four became consistent feeders. Both of the two that died were fed by leaving crickets in their enclosure. Has anyone experienced reluctance to feed with their baby hainanensis?

 

[perenquen]

yes, also from my experiences, hainanensis don´t eat as much as macularius,... I think it is not good to expect them to be voracious feeders, because they naturally seem to be "slow regime" geckos

I had 8 young this season (from 8 eggs) - mine were quite sensitive to disturbing, so it is very important that they have feel of comfort and peace - and then they will eat... also it is good to raise them solely, or in groups of 2, not larger groups

of course, some animals can have various problems from the beginning (genetic predispositions, errors during development,...) , it is sad, but not every individual must be vital. some, even when capable of leaving the egg, are "doomed" to die soon after

 

[geckomaster]

I would ask how you are housing them and what food source/size you're using along with temperature. I start mine out in plastic shoe boxes with cocosoft or eco-earth bedding with small pinholes in the sides for ventilation. A simple plastic dixie cup for shelter and plastic bottle cap for the water dish. They stay at room temperature which is high 70's in peak of summer and low to mid 60's now. I feed them 5-7 small dusted crickets twice a week along with a bi-weekly misting prior to feeding. I've found they can eat crickets quite large for their small size and have lost none that actually hatched out, though I had quite a few eggs die due to screw ups in incubation I've found with most of the goni's simple is best, though not as pretty for me it seems to work well for them. I hope you find a good solution whatever you try as they're really cool critters and I wish you success.