Dubia question???

oli

New member
Hey, I just looked in my dubia bin and I noticed that there are almost NO males in the colony at all?! There are well over 1,500 roaches, nymphs and many adult females but not many males at all. There used to be a bunch of them and I didn't feed them all off that's for sure, does anyone have any comments on this?
 

oli

New member
Yea there are some dead one's in the bin, i haven't looked that hard I just noticed since I was trying to feed some males off as the females sometimes develop that shiny layer of armor which is pretty thick and I wanted to save the females to have babies.
 
Roaches breed fastest when the sex ratio is 1:1, that said dubia are not all that long lived. Adults will live just a bit longer than a year sometimes as long as a year and a half when kept in conditions that are optimal for rapid breeding.

When you start a colony with adults of unknown age assume they are older and nearing the end of their lifespan. This will result in lots of early deaths and lowish production at first. Once you have produced your own adults they will produce much higher numbers their first few months of breeding then taper off in production till death ends the cycle.

Females in your colony are all likely pregnant, to what extent they will produce is questionable, as I stated a 1:1 ratio works best, this is because the males that do mate are likely to have better quality and higher numbers of viable sperm when mated to fewer females.

With 1500 roaches on hand, I'd continue moving adults to a new enclosure every month, allowed to produce whatever they can for each month without feeding from the colonies till you come full circle (that is, back to the first colony which is now breeding adults).

once you are full circle, the rotation can pretty much stop. This is because you will have learned the exact length of time required for the roaches to reach maturity under the conditions you are providing them, and by the time you get back to the first bin it will have matured and reseeded that colony (you are free to feed off all of the adults that month).

With this method you will increase production, know exactly how many roaches you can feed out in a single month, and reduce the need to select male only feeders. A byproduct of this method is that you will reduce or eliminate the number of deaths due to old age (unused adults can be sold to offset production costs).

This method works well where the roach being fed is sized properly for use as a feeder once it is mature, if the adult form is too large selecting a smaller roach is best.

Maurice Pudlo
 

oli

New member
:) I was waiting for you to come and school me with some knowledge, thanks! I thought that they may be getting old, but it just threw me off that all the adult males died, and the females are still alive. They already produced many nymphs and most likely will deposit some more before their lives taper off. It must be common for the males to fertilize the females then die themselves and the female lives until she produces for a possible last time? Is that assumption logical? How much 'healthier' are the females than the males to the geckos in the adult stage of life? I would assume they are more nutritious since their consistency is much more substantial and there are no wings. I also wonder about that shiny black exo-skeleton that the full grown females have and how it can negatively effect my geckos, what's your take on this Maurice? Thanks!
 

oli

New member
Ethan, what bin? These are free range roaches and they are hormone and anti-biotic free, I just lift the rug every time I need to feed the geckos and therefore I can just dispose of my uneaten food right on the floor without the need to get up. They can clean my dirty dishes quite well too, better than cascade. They keep the place spotless, much cleaner than having a dog like yours and no hair everywhere ;) As long as you don't mind frass all up in the tread of your shoes.
 

Riverside Reptiles

Administrator (HMFIC)
Sorry...forgot for a second that you're in Jersey! :lol::lol::lol:



Ethan, what bin? These are free range roaches and they are hormone and anti-biotic free, I just lift the rug every time I need to feed the geckos and therefore I can just dispose of my uneaten food right on the floor without the need to get up. They can clean my dirty dishes quite well too, better than cascade. They keep the place spotless, much cleaner than having a dog like yours and no hair everywhere ;) As long as you don't mind frass all up in the tread of your shoes.
 
Umm, wow, haven't laughed like that in a while.

Male vs. Female nutrition is quite a bit different.

Males contain less fat, and less total weight per adult thus less calories per adult consumed.

The wings of males are of little nutritional value other than acting as fiber in our diet, this is also the case with the prothorax (pronotum), found on both males and females, which is often not digested at all.

I feel safe saying females larger mass to surface ratio will equate to a higher calorie meal, more so if she is gravid because of the higher fat content.

As for how much more nutritious they might be is very much a question that would require me to know the dietary needs of your reptiles on an individual basis.

Feeding both males and females limits the overall fat content and slightly reduces the overall protein content. I feel this averaging is better than always selecting the higher protein male roaches. To me it is the same as providing a varied diet, the average of as many accepted feeders always seems to work best.

As far as nutrition goes, feeding a quality diet that supports the insects dietary needs on a consistant basis* will allow the roaches to be in top shape when they are gutloaded or dusted prior to being fed off. The primary reason for gutloading** and dusting being Ca:p ratio correction. The thought process here goes past the macronutrients and moves on to the micronutrient section of nutrition. Most insects will do ok on a diet that contains the proper levels of macronutrients ie protein, fat, and carbohydrates, but long term health and reproduction suffers if particular micro nutrients are lacking. Each insect type has slight differences in micronutrient needs, and processes them into slightly differing quantities of other nutrients for use or storage for later use. Some insects save/use/convert more than others in terms of processed food (food converted into lipids, protein, organs of all types and a vast assortment of in use chemicals, etc). A good point to make here is the difference between an insect in the process of molting vs. one that is not, the one molting is flooded with hormones driving the molting process that are not present when the insect is not molting; these hormones are new chemical formations in the insect that were not there several hours prior to molting. Without the proper levels of micronutrient in the insects diet molting is not possible because the chemical precursers do not exist to form the hormones that drive the molting process. This lack of micronutrients gets passed on to the animal that consumes the insect, bad juju. Another point is bioavailability of the micronutrients, live insects are constantly converting larger nutrients into smaller useable forms (digestion) and then converting these into even smaller forms and even changing the basic nutrients into others by chemical reactions that either combine or split the original nutrients. The wax worm does something like this with lipids, lipids in the diet are converted to a single type which that insect can use.

In order for us to provide our insect eating pets with the needed nutrients, in forms that are most effective for ready use (growth, weight maintenance, reproduction, and healing), we should provide a variety of feeders, and consider also providing variety even within a single species of insect based on sex and life stage.

At this point we do not know the exact nutrient requirements of most reptiles, crested geckos and the diets that are used to feed them is to the best of my understanding the closest we have come to knowing what a single reptile needs and from a scientific view that is still quite a crude formulation (no disrespect intended please read on). The CGD using its assortment of natural ingredients contains extras most likely and represents a great first step in a process of replacing components with pure proteins, vitamins, and minerals. Without doing something similar for all reptiles we will have to resort to providing a variety of foods that at least mimic the natural diet and hopefully provide all of the proper nutrition. In my experience, looking toward a diet that provides diversity is the way toward perfecting reptile nutrition.

*Think of this like a gasoline fueled truck vs. a diesel fueled truck, they both need a particular set of foods to run properly and remain healthy for as long as possible. As far as consistancy, run the wrong oil or fuel in each of the trucks just once and they might live (after a bit of work /healing/), but will not likely come out of the experience 100%.

**This is a way complex topic, in very basic terms I think most people have it all wrong. Popular thought is to cram the insect with a bunch of "good foods" and that the gut content nutrition will pass to the animal consuming the insect. This may well work with animals that are designed to consume vegtable matter as well as animals, but not so much with those who are only designed to consume animals if the gutload is mainly plant based. The basic difference being the reptile designed to digest only animal matter will have little to no use for plant based gut contents. I feel the main consideration in gut loading should be Ca:p correction, in some cases vitamin D3 should be added, and in cases where vitamins are found to be lacking they should be added to the gutload as well.

I'm not 100% happy with the above, it's a bit disjointed and maybe over simple in some places and suggestive of overcomplication in others. The italic paragraph pretty much sums it all up.

Maurice Pudlo
 

oli

New member
Thanks that was very enlightening. So for dubia for instance since we are discussing them here, what are good foods to feed them which will make ideal in Ca:p? I like how you brought that up about gutloading and how you feel most if not almost all people are misled by the reason why it is beneficial. What is a good gutload for purely carniverous reptiles such as knob-tails or leopard geckos for instance? I'm really liking your advanced knowledge on the matter as I'm always looking for little ways to improve the health of the animals I care for. So essentially fruit+vegetable foods for strict carnivore's is pretty pointless? What do you feel about chicken mash as a food for dubia or other feeders like crickets?

Ethan, don't be jealous you have to pay for your feeders! I heard you've been auditioning for the next season of Jersey shore, are the rumors true? lol
 
Your killing me ... :crackup:

I've been meaning to add a few pictures and details to that post, but my equipment is a bit on the ratty side. I guess thats what comes from over use and a bit of abuse.

Here is one of the scales I use for smaller stuff, obviously the fruit fly culture is new. You can see the oz/g and on/tare buttons are nearly gone, what might not be so clear is that the off button is on its way out too. It's also a bit dusty after using it to track weight of tomorrows feeders.

rattyscale.jpg


Anyhow, I'm looking for some more attractive equipment and a better camera, though the cell does ok, go droid, the colors aren't correct but it gets the point across!

Maurice Pudlo
 

oli

New member
Yea I got a scale like that, but it's made of hemp plastic, ha! I'm gonna try out your fruit fly media and make some of the gutloads and food for my feeders as I like the link you wrote that Ethan posted up.
 
Top