Unexpected hatchlings

[Negator]

Already got two. Sneaky bastards hid their eggs good -_-.

Problem is - some time ago, I got two hatchlings and they died from unknown causes. Just saw them near parents, gone to work and then found them dead after my return.
Now i got those two. As I'm afraid to leave them in the tank and repeat previous breed's fate, I placed them in a separate tank(small) and placed this tank in my terrarium to maintain temp+humidity.
Here is the question - WTF I am supposed to do now!?
They are alive and kicking. I had no idea how long they can live without food - they are not hunting for mealworms I threw them. In fact I have no idea if mealworms suit them at all - they were the smallest of insects available.
After reading the forum I noticed that for someone hatchlings started eating and hunting after a week or so.
So my questions are:
1. What is the time limit after which I should take actions to forcefeed them. (I had to forcefeed their mother for several months after bought her before she started hunting, but I suppose that seller was an asshole and she was wild captured instead of CB, so stress and so on).
2. What insects is the best option for hatchlings.
3. When it will be safe for them to set in the main tank and could their parents eat\kill them?
4. Sould I add calcuim (ReptoCal)?
Thank you for answers.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Small crickets or roaches are the best thing to feed these guys. They really prefer a more active food source than most worms. It can take some time to get them to start eating. Usually a few days at least. Try a couple of small crickets or something, and leave them in over night. If they aren't gone in the morning, take them out and try again the next night. Calcium is more critical when they're growing than in any other time of their life. Make sure that it contains vit. D3. Although tokay parents usually guard and protect their babies, I would say that putting them back in at the point might be a risk. I would keep them in their own separate enclosures (especially since something killed your last babies).

PS: congrats on the new babies!

 

[aquamentus_11]

congrats man! they look awesome. glad you could grab them to prevent a repeat offense.

@ethan: i was under the impression that they didn't need D3 because they were nocturnal and made their own sans UV light. is this just for really small guys like these babies or should juvies get D3 too?

 

[danniel]

congrats...
cute tokay......

 

[rdj52785]

The verdict is still out on the uvb on nocturnal geckos. My personal opinion is that the would get at least small amounts in nature, so it couldn't hurt. Everything I keep has both thier food dusted and exposure to low rated full spectrum lighting.

 

[Negator]

Here's a video of size comparison
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qm5XvAFNHOY
Also, weighting of their parents
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=34ZuIjEH1O8

 

[aquamentus_11]

very cool. nice how calm that adult is with you. you can tell that you're a good owner.

 

[Tokayy]

Do not use the repto cal... If I'm correct that is the one with the anole on the bottle. If so it contains phosphate. If it's the other one, the phoshorous free, there are two brands with similar names, any how, no phosphorous.

You can start feeding your baby tokay with small crickets. You did a smart thing as well in placing them in another container inside the main tank to ensure temperatures and humidity.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

@ethan: i was under the impression that they didn't need D3 because they were nocturnal and made their own sans UV light. is this just for really small guys like these babies or should juvies get D3 too?

D3 is particularly important with babies as their bones are growing rapidly, and even in nocturnal geckos, metabolic bone disease has been known to occur. I think that it's likely less important with full grown adults.

 

[billewicz]

Hey, Congrats on your toklings.

You may have lost your first two because they were from eggs that the female carried but were not fathered by the current male in the enclosure. He will eat them every time. The next set of eggs were most likely fathered by him and they tend to be safe until the juvie is starting to reach sexual maturity.

I would NOT return them now that they are out however.

So, most of the vid D3 and all of the calcium is from what the feed animal has synthesized from its' food and sunlight. High quality gut loading is essential as is the dusting powder. 1/8" crickets is what I start all my hatchlings on and then move up to roaches and 1/4" crickets, etc.

Since my crew is usually out for an hour after 'sunrise' and an hour before 'sunset', I provide UVB lighting with the idea that there could be some absorption and calcium synthesis during these times.

Also, I have observed that hatchlings left in with the parents seem to grow a lot faster than the ones I separate out. My assumption is that I provide both small and large crickets in the family enclosures which means bigger prey is also available to them as well.

One other tip. These little guys tend to drop tails when they are this young so be careful and good luck.

Enjoy!

Michael

 

[Morke]

Do not use the repto cal... If I'm correct that is the one with the anole on the bottle. If so it contains phosphate. If it's the other one, the phoshorous free, there are two brands with similar names, any how, no phosphorous.

You can start feeding your baby tokay with small crickets. You did a smart thing as well in placing them in another container inside the main tank to ensure temperatures and humidity.

Holy cow I've been using Reptocal, the one with the anole in the bottle, for a long time now. What's wrong with it?

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Don't confuse "Repto cal" with "Rep-cal"...two different products. Just make sure that whatever you get is "phosphorus free". It should say right on the label.

 

[Morke]

Don't confuse "Repto cal" with "Rep-cal"...two different products. Just make sure that whatever you get is "phosphorus free". It should say right on the label.

Well....

Ingredients: Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Phosphate


What's wrong with it? Can anyone point me to some thread or anywhere where I can read the problems with phosphate?

I mean I've had reptiles for like 4 years now and not a single problem, at least not with my geckos and reptocal... But I totally trust you guys, so could you give me more info?

 

[Tokayy]

Just been told by many reptile store owners and a couple of breeders to stay away from
phoshpate, the reason, I'm not sure, either it's unneeded or harmful. Not sure.

 

[aquamentus_11]

If it works anything like it does in humans, excess phosphate will bind calcium in the blood and render it inactive. Along with the other problems associated with low calcium levels (muscle weakness, heart problems, etc.), this will be sensed as a decrease in blood calcium and (along with the increased blood levels of phosphate) will cause an increase in the secretion of parathyroid hormone(PTH). PTH will cause an increase in phosphate excretion in the kidney and an increase in calcium absorption in the gut, but will also cause increased bone breakdown to increase blood calcium levels.

Unfortunately, if enough phosphate is present, this calcium will also be bound and more PTH will be secreted resulting in further bone breakdown They need some phosphate for healthy bones, but too much is a problem. They should be able to get enough from their diet.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Well....

Ingredients: Dicalcium Phosphate, Calcium Phosphate


What's wrong with it? Can anyone point me to some thread or anywhere where I can read the problems with phosphate?

I mean I've had reptiles for like 4 years now and not a single problem, at least not with my geckos and reptocal... But I totally trust you guys, so could you give me more info?

The whole issue is trying to maintain a proper ratio of calcium to phosphorus. Too much of one and not enough of the other can result in metabolic bone disease. The problem is that feeder insects tend to have low calcium and very high phos. levels. So, if you add calcium AND phos. you're not really changing the ratio...which means you're not really doing any good. Here's a good thread in our feeders section about Phosphorous ratios and links to all sorts of various pages and papers on the subject: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...rous-free-calcium-vs-calcium-phosphorous.html

 

[Morke]

Thanks a lot guys. Im going to try to find another calcium suplement.

 

[aquamentus_11]

in response to the posted link, the hypocalcemia (low blood calcium) is "causing" the metabolic bone disease. leeching calcium from the bones is the body's natural response to hypocalcemia. a small amount of this is happening all the time to maintain the delicate balance (as she says) between phosphate and calcium. the problem arises when the calcium leeched from the bones is not adequate to shut off the triggers to continue leeching; phosphate binding and inactivating calcium is an example of this. in these cases, calcium is continually stolen from bones causing them to become brittle. this is metabolic bone disease. hypocalcemia has many other effects that are just as bad: muscle weakness, heart rhythm problems, tremors and tetany to name a few. not sure if anyone cares about all that, but i felt that as long as you wanted to know, we might as well be thorough.

where are the geckos getting adequate calcium in the wild if insects are such a poor source, or are crickets and roaches just naturally less calcium-rich?

 

[billewicz]

Nutrition, delivery and balance.

In the wild, Tokay eat a lot more diverse diet than we could ever hope to serve up to them in our collections. Second, and much more important, is what the insect had been eating that day before it's demise to the natural food chain.

Our crickets and roaches are primarily a delivery system for nutrition and cannot be relied upon by themselves.

There has been a couple of studies that prove this out. There's even evidence that white potatoes actually lower the crickets' calcium uptake. (White potatoes are a staple food for commercially raised crickets and are usually in the box when you get them in.)

I prefer carrots and dandelion greens as a part of the gut load for moisture and a better nutritional value. I provide Rapashy Superload gut loading food for the insects for at least 30 hours before I offer them to the Tokay Hoard.

I alternate dusting them with either ZooMed's Reptivite w/D3 or Rapashy Calcium Plus. All females and pairs have a container of Calcium Plus in their enclosures. (I use the plastic rectangular sugar packet holders for the calcium powder. They fit in a corner nicely.)

The science of reptile nutrition is moving forward to keep pace with our ever growing collections. This gives us healthier, longer living geckos for which we can enjoy for many years to come.

Enjoy,

Michael

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

where are the geckos getting adequate calcium in the wild if insects are such a poor source, or are crickets and roaches just naturally less calcium-rich?

In the wild, geckos are eating a much wider variety of natural prey items. These prey items are also eating a much wider variety of foods. The problem in captivity comes often from feeding poorly fed feeders. Really, one needs to go to pretty great lengths to provide a combination of high quality daily diet to your feeders, PLUS a high quality gut load prior to feeding off to your geckos, PLUS dusting to truly make for a quality feeder for your animal. Just like with people, you are what you eat. A good person to talk to about this is Maurice (MauricesExoticPets). He's put a ton of time into researching the subject of feeders and feeding feeders. He's also a nice guy that's very willing to share information. If you look around in our feeder forum, he has multiple posts, some of which go into some good detail.