Wierd Housing

[GermanDude]

Good Evening to all of you,
I came up with some, well, lets call it, failure of housing so I figured I would ask you guys for some hints what I should do.
So here is a short story about how I ended up with my problem:
I started to build a new Vivarium (L 1,20m x B 80cm x H 1m) for my 1.1 Chondrodactylus Bibronii (The male is a Bibron for sure but i am starting to wonder about the female being a Turneri :-x) After painting the selfmade backplane with Epoxidharz and setting all up I waited for 10 days to see how the climate developes and its around 38 to 45% at day and 55 to 65% at night with 10 hours of daylight. The substrate of the left half is 1/2 humus and 1/4 sand and 1/4 soil i took out of there old vivarium to have some microorganisms, the other half of the ground is 3/4 sand and 1/4 humus both. The temp at daylight is aproximately around 28°C, under the spot 38C and at night between 18 and 20°C. My 2 Bibrons moved in like a week ago, I already found a clutch of eggs and everything seemed fine... But then... after cleaning I slipped due to an injury I got from sports and fall... on my "Bartagamen" (Pogono vitticeps) vivarium and basically broke the whole thing...

So here is my problem, I am in the middle of a house moving and I am not sure what to do so here is my question:
Is it possible to have my Pogona move in with the Bibrons for a couple of days to aybe 2 weeks until i set up a new place for him to house?
I know they come from different continents, they have not the exact same requirements, but my Pogona is still pretty tiny (12,5cm from tal to nose).

I also wanted to as if the excrements of Pogona Viticeps or Bibroniis could harm the other with their specific Microorganisms Bacteria and so on?

I started to let my Pogona have its hibernation which I started for him 18 days ago and due to my glass shattering accident he is barely awake and morelikely sleepy the whole day. My Bibrons start to travel around around 11pm, lights go off at 10pm.

What do you guys think?
I could really need an advice, should I let him have his hibernation in a 30 x 30 x 60cm terrarium and in this time get a new terarium? Or can I set him to my Bibrons for this time. :idea::idea::idea:

Thank you all for your advice....

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

I would NOT house your dragon with your geckos.

 

[acpart]

Get a plastic tub which should be pretty cheap and house one of the 2 species in there.

Aliza

 

[grmblmonster]

Wenn du gerne noch was von deinen Geckos haben willst, solltest du sie besser nicht, auch nicht nur kurz, mit den Bartagamen zusammensetzen.

Das geht nämlich sehr schnell und definitiv nicht gut aus.

 

[GermanDude]

Okay I got that, I havent put them together, although I think that "klein Egon" the dragon would be more happy in a fairly bigger tank than for this couple days
but now I am wondering about the reasons why it wouldnt go well.
I am not talking about the origin of both species or climatic differences.
I am more talking about different bacteria or typical behavior, or...
Has anybody some papers or insight informations about this?
(I lookinged into some books at our university-libraries but couldnt find crap -.- )

And thanks 2 all for the quick replies

 

[grmblmonster]

Why it wouldn't work? Your dragon is going to eat the Geckos.

 

[GermanDude]

my dragon is still a "tiny" dragon and even smaller than my geckos.. I think my bibron male would morelikely ride small Egon like a horse...
My Male bibron is 14,5cm long, my dragon like i said 2 cm smaller.
And I was morelikely talking abour scientific reason that would speak theoretically against it, like bacteria, behavioral differences like we know that dragons AND Bibrons are sometimes very territorial.... and so on...
So I think NOT that my dragon would eat Mr. Bibron just now... at least not in the last week until I buy a new Terra... But in his plastic bos he is save from being eaten by my Bibron xD

 

[grmblmonster]

That's not as funny as you think

I've seen a Bibron Gecko biting off the leg of an Leopardgecko.

Sometimes it's just better not to experiment with things, that can harm the animals

 

[GermanDude]

mhh I still think that you didn't get my point besides that my dragon wouldnt eat the bibron like you said in your first reply:
I am asking for scientific facts why it wouldnt work and I know that both species can be very territorial... So I still think there should be mmoooore reason, but I will look into isgab.org acii.net or plosbio when I am at Uni and maybe I will find something about bacteria orwhatsoever.
Thanks :=

 

[Ozymandias]

what other reason do you need? Ether the dragon attacks the gecko or the gecko attacks the dragon ether way they get stressed out. Just pick up a plastic storage tub as a temporary home and be done with it. It really isn't worth the risk.

 

[GermanDude]

Oh damnit -.-
Why didnt anybody understand what I am trying to achieve here?
I never put them together, I was just searching for REALLY scientific reasions why its not a good idea to ep THIS 2 species together!
That they are territorial is something I already knew and like I found out is there really something about the bacteria in there poop that could severely be bad for the other species...
So lets better close this thread before anybody misunderstands it...

 

[grmblmonster]

I don't get the reason why you need more points.
Either the Dragon eats the Gecko or vice versa.

Noone will know about specific other reasons, because i bet all the testobjects (if there were any), would have been dead before you can see any other results.


And I don't think, i need to talk about Salmonella, Flagellaten (damnit, what is the english vocabulary for that???) and all the like.
All reptiles carry a lot of different bakteria, virus and so on, and often it diddn't hurt one specimen but kills the other.
Do you want to have a specific list of ALL the illnesses causes by that stuff, that your animals MIGHT carry?

 

[GermanDude]

Well, that was exactly the point I was talking about!
And Salmonella and Flagellata... you should reread your books about those two...
But being interested in the little friends you are keeping at your home you naturally should care about the bacteria in them and how they could harm your other species e.g. like a friend of mine who had his crestie being very sick because he cleaned his poop with the same fork he cleaned his other vivariums and SOMEHOW his cresty got very sick... Fortunately his Vet is a good one
So... I dont know, I naturally care about the bacteria in my pets and specially about the possibility of one getting hurt by the poop of an other :-x
I dont know what you do in your free time, but I actually read what ever I can find about things I care about e.g. anything I can find about biology / zoology when my Studium gives me that much free time...
And Salmonella wouldnt be a problem for species if you keep both long enough... I dont see your point why Protozoa should be of any risk...
So well, I am still looking for more detailed reasons besides the behavior that ... you still know the rest... but since you guys are just beeing all negative and the typic forum "blabla" type I will just find it out myself and THEN not write it here...
done

 

[acpart]

Well, I can't provide the scientific information, but I can tell you that there are many people keeping multiple species separately that may not use optimal hygiene when they feed all these reptiles. I have not heard of any documented diseases that occur in this situation. What makes it more complicated is the role I have been taught that stress plays with a reptile's immune system, where a parasite load that it is comfortable with can become less well-balanced due to stress, which could be an issue when putting 2 different species together. That's the best I can do.

Aliza

 

[grmblmonster]

Listen,

the best reason NOT to keep different species together ist the factor stress.

And since you speak my language, i'll try it with that.

Allgemein gesprochen ist es vollkommen EGAL, welche Bakterien oder sonstige Krankheiten in den Tieren sind, sie werden sich bestenfalls schwer verwunden, also ist das egal.


Wenn du es aber wirklich wissen willst, welche Bakterien und Krankheitserreger in deinen Tieren sind, die der anderen Art schaden könnten, dann solltest du einen kompletten Checkup machen lassen.
Fast jedes Tier trägt im Terrarium Flagellaten, die meisten leben ohne Probleme damit. Wenn aber ein anderer Faktor dazu kommt, kann es sein, dass ein Tier, dass jahrelang ohne Probleme mit ihnen gelebt hat, eingeht.

Glaub mir, niemand hier wird dir eine Liste mit allen "Mitbewohnern" deiner Tiere geben oder geben können.
Ich setze mich schon verdammt lange mit den Sachen auseinander (und ja, ich studiere auch. Ich gehe sogar noch nebenher arbeiten. Und trotzdem bin ich gut informiert), aber ich bin keine Tierärztin.

Wenn du wirklich absolute Hintergrundinfos suchst, dann hol dir an deiner Uni in der Bib die Standardwerke zur Reptilienmedizin.
Ich habe 4 davon schon gelesen, und du?

Bei meiner Haltung, die strikt getrennt ist, habe ich für ALLE meine Tiere eigene Utensilien, es kommt zu keinerlei Kontakt zwischen den Tieren oder den Gegenständen, die mit ihnen in Kontakt kommen.

Das ist das normale Verfahren, wie es die meisten erfahrenen Halter praktizieren.

Von daher: Was zum Henker willst du eigentlich wissen? Welche Krankheiten übertragen werden können?
Ist dir bewusst, wie viele es davon gibt?
Das wäre genauso, als würdest du fragen: Welche Zoonosen gibt es und welche Krankheiten können von Mensch auf Mensch übertragen werden.

Als jemand, der studiert, solltest du deine Fragen doch weitaus differenzierter stellen können.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Let's not allow this thread to get out of control please. I doubt that you're going to find any "scientific" data on putting these two exact species together. But, in general, it's well documented that multiple species enclosures are very difficult to maintain and even more so if the animals are from different regions. I agree that the stress alone is reason enough not to try. But good luck with your search for this data that you are looking for on these two particular species.

 

[GermanDude]

Like I foud out today at work:
The only disease that could hurt your bibron is yellow fungus if it is the contagious form spread from your Pogona...
The only hurting "bacteria" that can harm your bibron are the "good" Salmonella in a Pogona. They, in the Bibron, can couse severe damage...
Thats all my boss could come up with but he will look into his stuff and tell me more if he finds it...
THAT are the data that I was aiming for, not the "stress-factor" everybody knows about...

@grmblmonster:
Ist schön für dich was du wo wie machst und was du wie wo liest. :cheer:

 

[grmblmonster]

Just a little hint: A human can die by a simple infection, like the common flu. It always depends on the conditions.

EVERY reptile illness can kill one of the both species in the tank.
There is a lot more than 2 illnesses, that is what we wanted to tell you the whole time.

And if your boss just gives you few examples, he either is not well informed OR he just wanted to give you something to leave him alone. Your choice.

 

[GermanDude]

Haha well.. I think you are just grumpy...
This nonsense like "every illness can kill..." blabla
If you have an ill pet you seperate it and treat the injury disease or what ever as best as you can. And like I said in the last post you should have read more closely (I bet you didnt) am I looking for bacteria or anything typical for THIS ONE species that can harm the other species.
Its simply dumb to argue that the illness of this one can harm the other. I wasnt talking about a disease from this pet that can kill another pet...
And my boss (somebody that also works at my uni) took a lot of time to look into this and has Pogona on his own...
I think it is really interesting to know what specific bactiera or microorganisms are in your pet as must as I wanted to know what microorganisms live inside me or on me... Like I said before, when my pal cleaned his Vivaria he somehow exchanged poop (thats what we think at least) and thats maybe how his pet got sick.
I still think that you are just some ignorant hater that maybe doesnt want to understand a well thought question and all she has to do is to annoy with her whatever...
I well know about the stressfactor or the territorial agressions a Bibron can have... (My male bibron tried to atack my fork while cleaning his Vivarium when I did it in the evening)
I also know that Pogona can be VERY territorial against other species...
But I am well interested about my previously asked question but I know now, that I shouldnt have asked this in this forum where people like you just hate...

But I am thankful for people like acpart that can write posts in a way it helps to answer questions in an adequate way.
I havent thought about the point that the stress can actually lower the imune system so that the species gets easier infected. ANd so I come back to my question, what in pogona can harm Bibronii when they both are clean (as clean as possible) from parasites or infectious microorganisms or viruses. ( I konw they cant be free so... )

But I am not interested in going into this any deeper in this forum since nobody actually could answer my question by now so I will find it out on my own...

And I really think that people should think about how they try to answer to posts in a forum! :-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x:-x

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

I'm closing this thread as it's silly, it's going nowhere (nowhere positive anyway), and I seriously doubt that there's been any real scientific studies done on pagona being housed specifically with bibronii. If anyone has any "scientific data" on this though, you certainly can send it to germandude via private message.