Line Breeding Day Gecko's for Traits

markpulawski

New member
So coming from a dart frog background where line breeding for traits is generally frowned upon, how do most of you feel about line breeding in day gecko's? Amazing to be sure, I guess I am not yet on either side of the fence, as to darts I always tell people keep what you like...it's your hobby. I am sure we will see some mind blowing Grandis showing up soon, I can't imagine anyone would say this is bad but would this be inhibiting genetics to any degree of worry? Any other day gecko species being bred for specific traits?
 

mkschaefer

New member
Kurt Lantz has some spectacular crimson grandis and blue grandis. I also purchased some unrelated madagascariensis that display some atypical blue hues. Some of my kochi originally came from him and I have produced some animals that have a large amount of red on them compared to most of the kochi I have seen. I am beginning to pair them with similarly patterned animals, but they are not related. We will see what happens, if anything. I am also putting some of these in with more typical kochi. Sometimes the difference is just slight in patterning, but I think there is a difference. Here are some of those kochi:

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I have also been pairing reticulated/ banded, banded/ banded, reticulated/ reticulated patterned standingi but both "forms" come from any of the pairings above.

I generally do not pair or sell related animals, but a number of species here are likely related, even distantly, as they were brought in small numbers.
 

GiantDayGecko.com

New member
So coming from a dart frog background where line breeding for traits is generally frowned upon, how do most of you feel about line breeding in day gecko's? Amazing to be sure, I guess I am not yet on either side of the fence, as to darts I always tell people keep what you like...it's your hobby. I am sure we will see some mind blowing Grandis showing up soon, I can't imagine anyone would say this is bad but would this be inhibiting genetics to any degree of worry? Any other day gecko species being bred for specific traits?

I hope this thread causes a lot of interaction because it is a great issue to discuss.

In my experience and opinion line breeding can be okay BUT there are definitely rules. In general, line breeding reduces the gene pool and results in inbreeding where genetic diversity is limited, making the species more vulnerable to diseases and undesirable genetic mutations. Breeding just for color or specific trait (which most reptile breeders desire) at the cost of breeding less desirable traits must be managed.

For example, if a spectacularly colored animal hatches but is smaller or has some other obvious imperfection, it should either not be bred or possibly bred to a different line. Genetic bottlenecking occurs when a reptile breeder's desire to make the next cool looking animal outweighs good judgment thereby reducing genetic variation and often eventually leading to unhealthy animals.

In contrast, breeding to preserve diversity while selecting for healthy and desirable traits is a good general practice and should be promoted. In order to produce interesting morphs responsibly, a large collection which can harvest diverse and healthy genes is best as well as a solid understanding of how reptile genes interact. Once the desired gene is expressed within a genetically diverse individual it is suitable for sale.

To speak more specifically, my company specializes in breeding Giant Day Geckos. Our collection is enormous and therefore with management won't allow for the genetic bottlenecking I am describing above. I have seen geckos from other breeders that started from small founder populations, or even from a single pair, that have this genetic bottlenecking problem. This most often manifests itself in spinal deformities, ocular disease, coordination deficits, and/or fertility problems.

Le bon temps roule, Jon
Group Moderator
Geckos Unlimited - Phelsuma grandis- Giant Day Gecko Group
 

mkschaefer

New member
I have seen geckos from other breeders that started from small founder populations, or even from a single pair, that have this genetic bottlenecking problem. This most often manifests itself in spinal deformities, ocular disease, coordination deficits, and/or fertility problems.

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Excellent post. Excellent points. Thanks for sharing. Without naming names, I am curious as to where you have seen the situation mentioned above. If we were doing a research project in the wild, we would be taking blood samples, examining DNA, etc. We are not doing that in the hobby, so though I think those assumptions may be accurate, it may be difficult to know for sure that is what is actually happening. I also know very few people who have been breeding Phesluma long enough to observe this and trace it.

Many or most (depending on species) of the hatchlings we produce survive in captivity, while very few do so in the wild. I admit I am dismayed when I lose a hatchling, especially when conditions, from my perspective, were accurate. I intend to breed the offspring I produce, except when there is some visual behavioral or morphological abnormality. Visual is the key word. We, as keepers and hobbyists, are constantly breeding animals that would not survive in the wild (either because of something we don't see or because not every individual survives-even those we would deem most fit).

This may be happening in grandis, but I have not observed this with klemmeri, standingi, borbonica, and cepediana, a number of species with very small founding populations (though there have been some klemmeri and standingi brought in). Those of us working with guimbeaui, borbonica, inexpectata ( five of us), cepediana, etc. try to keep lines apart as much as possible. I have found this tedious at times, but well worth it.
 

daggekko

New member
I am curious to know how easy/cheap it would be to start collecting samples from our collections and trying to figure out how related the animals are. Or if this would even be worth while, since as mentioned the gene pool from the start is fairly small. It would be awesome if we could all thrown down what we have on paper and figure out what the best next steps would be:idea:

Could the samples be provided using shed skin from the gecko, or does it have to be more invasive? Does anyone know more about these issues?
 

markpulawski

New member
Excellent reponse Jon and exactly what I was looking for, managed properly breeding the best looking of the animals we produce can result in spectacular results, some think this is bad and I ask why. If managed in the way you outline there is enough diversity but more importantly I have always felt putting outstanding examples of a morph together....especially unrelated animals is a benefit to the hobby. Some will argue that this is not random pairing as nature suggests, well last time I looked my enclosure are not too close to the Seychelles but my animals are fat and happy. I look forward to your new arrivals, will you have animals in Daytona?
 

GiantDayGecko.com

New member
Excellent reponse Jon and exactly what I was looking for, managed properly breeding the best looking of the animals we produce can result in spectacular results, some think this is bad and I ask why. If managed in the way you outline there is enough diversity but more importantly I have always felt putting outstanding examples of a morph together....especially unrelated animals is a benefit to the hobby. Some will argue that this is not random pairing as nature suggests, well last time I looked my enclosure are not too close to the Seychelles but my animals are fat and happy. I look forward to your new arrivals, will you have animals in Daytona?

Thanks Mark and thanks for initiating a cool discussion. I will be in Daytona for one night. I hope we bump into one another so we can talk geckos. It is great to meet foward thinking reptile enthusiasts and situlate discussion how we can be better breeders.

Jon
Day Geckos - The finest captive bred Phelsuma since 1993!
 

GiantDayGecko.com

New member
I am curious to know how easy/cheap it would be to start collecting samples from our collections and trying to figure out how related the animals are. Or if this would even be worth while, since as mentioned the gene pool from the start is fairly small. It would be awesome if we could all thrown down what we have on paper and figure out what the best next steps would be:idea:

Could the samples be provided using shed skin from the gecko, or does it have to be more invasive? Does anyone know more about these issues?

Although for some breeders, small gene pool is an issue, I do not think it is a major obstacle to moving the species forward in the reptile hobby. Your idea of determining how related the captive population is through blood samples is very interesting, but this would be a major expense and require significant expertise and time on the part of a biogeneticist. It has been done for certain rock iguanas of the genus Cyclura to help manage breeding as a hedge against extinction.

One of the challenges facing breeding Giant Day Geckos is gene compatibility. There is a lot of missing information on how genes interact, are inherited, and are expressed. This makes what I do incredibly dynamic. It is a sizable job and other breeders are certainly needed to help in breeding trials.

Jon
Day Geckos - The finest captive bred Phelsuma since 1993!
 
One thing that I'm curious about (I'm coming from a fish breeding background) is if some of our techniques work in the breeding of reptiles. It seems that line breeding is te best way to get strong good lookin morphs then outcrossing to a similar yet unrelated animal. In the fish hobby I know it was common to have two unrelated parents and then take a son and breed to mom and daughters to dad. And then line breed and back a few generations and if defects started to occur you can cross the lines. That way you have the mother line and father line which are similar but not exact. That way you keep the same genes to improve colors and patterns without having to constantly inbreed. So while the two lines are relate after a few generations the idea is that they aren't 100% alike and crossing them wouldn't bring in too many things you don't want.
 

rabzouz

New member
A very interesting topic, which makes me curious, the thing one usually hears about are the different color morphs that are bred, but another trait that i personally find very interesting would be size( since this is a trait that happens to change in nature as well with island populations: "Island endemics may be markedly larger, or appreciably smaller, than their mainland relatives."), are there any geckos bred to be smaller or bigger than the usual? or are there any other traits that are bred that are less visible than coloration?
 
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