After reading in the care sheet and various threads that "pure calcium" can be found cheaper at health food stores, I decided to check one out and see what they carry. The store sells calcium citrate powder. Can this powder be left in a gecko's tank 24/7 instead of calcium carbonate? I have noticed that the word "carbonate" is underlined and in bold in the care sheet.
Calcium Citrate?
- Thread starter Aellie
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Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Yes, it is important to get the calcium carbonate.
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
That is a "no" answer to your question regarding calcium citrate.
aquamentus_11
New member
calcium citrate is more readily available for use by the body than calcium carbonate so a little goes a long way. i've tried to think of a reason why they say not to use it for geckos, but all i can figure is that we're talking about long-term, maintenance of Ca2+ levels so no need to use the big guns. if you were to use it like the normal calcium carbonate powder, you'd quickly run into hypercalcemia: constipation, gas, etc. even if you were to be careful, i wouldn't give a tiny, non-human human-approved supplements. you think herbal/supplement companies care about us? they're not under government control and so can throw pretty much anything they want into that bottle.
Battlecat? Who do you think you are, He-man? ;-)
This is my sentiment as well. Then again, there are some reptile-specific products that are scary too. Figured I would research some of the stuff I've been reading.
aquamentus_11
New member
well he came with the red armor
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
aquamentus_11
New member
if you guys really want to try this stuff, maybe cut the number of times per week that you use the calcium in half. personally, i'd see what you can read on the subject before actually going through with it. peter, you sound like a chemically-inclined guy; have you heard of anyone using these alternate forms of calcium with their reptiles?
Hello Nate,
I have used calciumlactate during about 15 jears with every feeding. Never had any problems. The last couple of years I use Miner-All ,witch contains about 50% calciumcarbonate if i'm not mistaking, with every feed so I stopped adding lactate. I also put a dish with 50/50 Ca-lactate and grinded cuttlefishbone in every terrarium. I offer my crickets also a diet witch contains about 10-20% Ca-lactate.
On top of the calcium I offer all my animals UV-lighting. No matter if they are diurnal or not.
I never used citrate.
I have used calciumlactate during about 15 jears with every feeding. Never had any problems. The last couple of years I use Miner-All ,witch contains about 50% calciumcarbonate if i'm not mistaking, with every feed so I stopped adding lactate. I also put a dish with 50/50 Ca-lactate and grinded cuttlefishbone in every terrarium. I offer my crickets also a diet witch contains about 10-20% Ca-lactate.
On top of the calcium I offer all my animals UV-lighting. No matter if they are diurnal or not.
I never used citrate.
Calcium citrate and calcium lactate are both readily available, and both are more easily absorbed than calcium carbonate. Because of their better absorption they are normally reserved for calcium therapy in cases of MBD. It's too easy to overdose on them than calcium carbonate. Too much calcium can interfere with absorption of Vitamins A, D, E & K. You might be fixing a calcium shortage, but run the risk of creating a shortage of those vitamins.
The citrate is somewhat sour, not very well liked by reptiles (or most people for that matter), so getting them to self-administer with it will most likely be a chore.
The form of calcium the geckos would find in the wild is calcium carbonate - it's in bones, snail and egg shells, corals, etc. The geckos' metabolism is geared more towards using the carbonate form than the others. It's much safer to use when supplementing. Some brands of c. citrate and lactate have other ingredients, binders, flavourings and other non-medicinal ingredients, something that probably won't benefit the gecko. If you really want to use either of them, check to make sure there's nothing else added, other than water if it's a liquid preparation.
Calcium carbonate is also much cheaper to buy.
The citrate is somewhat sour, not very well liked by reptiles (or most people for that matter), so getting them to self-administer with it will most likely be a chore.
The form of calcium the geckos would find in the wild is calcium carbonate - it's in bones, snail and egg shells, corals, etc. The geckos' metabolism is geared more towards using the carbonate form than the others. It's much safer to use when supplementing. Some brands of c. citrate and lactate have other ingredients, binders, flavourings and other non-medicinal ingredients, something that probably won't benefit the gecko. If you really want to use either of them, check to make sure there's nothing else added, other than water if it's a liquid preparation.
Calcium carbonate is also much cheaper to buy.
aquamentus_11
New member
ok i've edited this like 12 times because i can't concisely word what i want to say. i'm not trying to correct you Hilde because I assume you know more than I do about this stuff, but I just wanted to clarify for myself and everyone else. i've only heard about calcium's interference with Iron absorption and possibly Zinc and its beneficial effects on the absorption of vitamin c. i'm not a chemist or dietitian and it's been 2 years since I learned this so forgive me. vitamin d is absorbed at a regular rate regardless of blood calcium levels from the intestine and produced in the skin in response to UVB light. vitamin d is then activated by the kidney in the face of low calcium levels to become able to increase the absorption of calcium from the intestine and stabilize calcium in bone. vitamin d levels may become low in the setting of excess calcium (because so much of it is being used to deal with the calcium), but excess calcium will not affect vitamin d's absorption from the intestine or production in the skin. vitamin d can inhibit the absorption of vitamins e,a and k so a decrease in vitamin d could theoretically cause an increase in the other 3. d,e,a and k are known as fat-soluble vitamins and unlike the rest (which are easily dissolved in water) can build up to toxic levels in the body. as far as calcium's direct effect on the absorption of e,a and k, i'm not sure. i'd imagine Hilde can explain it.
what i do know is that excess calcium is far more likely to cause kidney stones, heart dysrhythmias and muscle weakness in humans than it is to cause evident problems with vitamins. this may be different in geckos and i apologize to any vets that read this because i remember how annoying it was when i was pre-vet to listen to physicians try to apply human medicine to animals. at least i'm trying.
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Too much calcium, whether there's excess Vit D3 or not, can bind some vitamins and nutrients, particularly fat-soluble ones. Ca can hinder the absorption of fat, and if the Ca is in powder form to excess (such as dusting the insects too heavily) then it can even leave a layer of Ca in the intestines, like a coating of Ca-sludge. Ca also neutralizes the acids that digest the food, which is then only partially digested, some nutrients can't be properly absorbed (or even not at all, depending on the situation).
Vit D3 is needed to absorb Ca, but too much Ca means you can't absorb Vit D3 to begin with.
I don't have much time right now, but later this evening I'll dig up some resources which explain how Ca affects Vit A,D and other fat-soluble vitamins.
Vit D3 is needed to absorb Ca, but too much Ca means you can't absorb Vit D3 to begin with.
I don't have much time right now, but later this evening I'll dig up some resources which explain how Ca affects Vit A,D and other fat-soluble vitamins.
cricket4u
New member
You are correct and it's no different in reptiles. I think what Hilde is trying to explain is due to the fact that calcium neutralizes stomach acid it can block absorption of any supplements in excess. Not that calcium has a direct effect on particularly fat soluble vitamins.
Wait she did state on particularly fat soluble vitamins. I have never heard of calcium having a direct effect on fat soluble vitamins. Hilde could you have misunderstood what you read?
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How to Improve the Body's Absorption of Vitamins | Healthy Eating | SF Gate
Fat-soluble vitamins A, D, E and K require fats to be absorbed.
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There are many other sources that state the same thing, I just picked this one because it was first on the Google hits this time around.
Calcium And Fat Absorption | LIVESTRONG.COM
Calcium helps maintain bone health and plays a role in a number of other functions, from muscle contraction to nerve function. In addition, evidence indicates that following a diet high in calcium may reduce fat absorption and increase fecal fat excretion.
Fats are digested into fatty acids and glycerol in the small intestine and are absorbed by the intestinal wall into your bloodstream. If fat is not absorbed, it’s pushed through to the large intestine and excreted as feces, which is measured as fecal fat excretion. Scientists at the University of Copenhagen in Denmark discovered that subjects following a high-calcium diet experienced increases in fecal fat excretion compared with those who adhered to a low-calcium diet. The findings were published in the November 2010 issue of the “British Journal of Nutrition.”
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Again, there are other sources out there, but I don't have time to dig up more/others.
Basically, too much Ca interferes with fat-soluble vitamin absorption.
I was told this many years ago by a nutritionist and doctor when counselling me for a medical condition, so I'll consider them as a source as well, though I can't provide the proof since it was all verbal.
If you have the time you can find all kinds of evidence for, and against, Ca vs. Vitamins. Allen Repashy has stated "Too much calcium, even without too much D-3, becomes a binder for essential vitamins and nutrients. Vitamin A in particular. The calcium blocks the absorbtion of these vitamins." His entire write-up can be found online.
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Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
(Very interesting...nice shares 
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)