Two crested geckos (Ziggy and Manila) both finicky with Repashy CGD

WildWildMidwest

New member
Hello from Wisconsin. I've been reading this web forum several weeks before our kids bought their two crested geckos last week. I have also been reading several highly recommended gecko books and numerous other web pages, such as jbscresties.com.

Our first crested gecko, Ziggy (aka Ralph), weighed 7 grams at his arrival eight days ago. (We'll call Ziggy a boy for convenience, though Ziggy's gender remains unknown.) Ziggy is a pig for calcium-dusted crickets, taking up to 3 of them at an offering. He can barely make the legs to go down but he still looks eager for more. He is quite bold and not easily disturbed by hands entering his 5 gallon terrarium. We had him initially in a 20 gallon long terrarium, but he seemed to get lost in there... he's definitely happier looking in his 5 gallon tank (for now).

Our 35 gram female, Manila, arrived four days ago. She lives in the 20L terrarium, and she moves about plenty during the night. She is more reserved than Ziggy, preferring dark hides instead of climbing the Hagen plastic Ampallo plant in her tank. Ziggy loves climbing his plastic Ampallo.

Manila took two medium sized dusted, gut-loaded crickets last evening but she rejected a freshly molted mealworm and two other crickets. I don't know if she ever saw a mealworm before; we don't plan on offering mealworms often. She ate one cricket the previous night. She took two bites of a banana wedge two days ago but she barely touches her Repashy Crested Gecko Diet. Ziggy also doesn't seem to like Repashy CGD much. Both geckos consume approximately 1/8 tsp Repashy CGD per 24 hours.

Our terrariums are set at temperatures between 70-75 degrees, with Ultratherm UTH heaters connected to homemade rheostats. Humidity is around 80% in both terrariums. We mist the geckos lightly each night. Both tanks have filtered daylight only – no artificial light, no direct light except room lighting when humans are about. Our two geckos never met each other, nor have they been in the same room together. We do not share any equipment between them. We are scrupulous about hand washing and not carrying germs / parasites between geckos during their 30 day quarantine.

I have a colony of dubia roaches on order. I plan on using dubia nymphs as a primary live food and using crickets and other insects for occasional food diversity. I am well aware of the risk of impaction from mealworms, and Ziggy won't get offered any mealworms until he's much bigger. My original plan was to offer a couple dubias 2-3 times a week, but I may need to modify that plan based on our geckos' preferences / needs.

I look forward to suggestions people may have to get our cresties interested in Repashy CGD. They don't seem to touch the stuff unless we offer them a cricket first to put them in the mood for eating. We mix CGD freshly every evening and remove it in the morning. We handle our geckos less than five minutes every other day, before cricket feeding. The geckos go straight back into their terrariums with no more handling as soon as they finish eating crickets.

One thought: the store where we bought our Repashy CGD is a high volume Milwaukee pet store with multiple crested geckos and a reptile department Manager who knows tons about crestie care and biology, since she owns multiple crested geckos herself. I assumed the 1.75 ounce CGD bottle I bought there to be fresh; the inner plastic bottle seal was unopened. Looking at the label now I begin to wonder. Above the UPC code on the back it says "(c) 2008 Product of USA". The front label is yellow with the name Repashy Superfoods. I see from the web the current label is purple and is labeled Sandfire Superfoods. Are our cresties rejecting their CGD because it's stale? It doesn't smell stale to my human nostrils.

I thought about turning up the temperature on Manila's terrarium a few degrees to see if that will make her hungrier. Any other ideas?

Thanks in advance. I love Geckos Unlimited!

[Moderator, please feel free to move this thread to the Crested Gecko subforum if you feel it's more appropriate there.]
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
Moved here ;)
You might want to read this: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...s-care-sheet-correlophus-ciliatus-basics.html especially the part dealing with feeding.

I would stick to what really works, crickets! As long as your cresteds eat crickets, it's no big deal if they don't eat CGD. Crickets and roaches will keep them healthy as long as you properly gutload feeder insects.

Now it only reflects my own opinion and experience. I have kept and bred many cresteds over the years and similar species and I have never used CGD or other similar ready-made diets.

That's just my point of view but I doubt there are any CGD trees in their homeland :evil::lol:
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
Thank you for your excellent summary, Thorr. Somehow I missed it previously. My concern about Manila not pining for CGD is now greatly diminished. We'll continue onward in open-minded exploration with our children, ages 10 and 12. There's till very much to learn about our new friends, Ziggy (Ralph??) and Manila.
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
I fed cresteds on a diet composed of 80% of live insects dusted with calcium, other minerals and vitamin D3 on every feeding, and 20% of fruit baby food or smashed ripe fruit such as bananas, mangos, papayas, figs...all of these having an excellent calcium/phosphore ratio. I also used bee pollen in grains. I have noticed cresteds will never accept acidic fruits such as oranges, if that helps.
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
I bought phospate free / D3 free calcium powder at my store manager's recommendation, based on the assumption our cresties would be consuming 75% CGD and 25% other foodstuffs. Hypervitaminosis D is the concern with added D3 in calcium dustings for a gecko primarily fed CGD. Now I need to reevaluate the vitamin situation. I was looking at Reptavite at a different pet store this evening but it contained too much phosphorous for my comfort. If I wanted Ziggy and Manila to get osteopenia, I would let them drink Pepsi. :biggrin:

I smushed some banana and put it in the terraria tonight, alongside CGD. Tomorrow they'll get gut loaded crickets and CGD. I turned up the temp on Manila's tank to 75F and she seems more active. I'll let you know what magic combo of temperature and feedings seem optimal once I figure that out. Every creature has its happy zone.
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
Manila chomped down all the smushed banana last night within 10 minutes. It had a definite laxative effect on her. Ziggy ate about half his banana mush and a little CGD. He vigorously gobbled two crickets this morning. I offered Manila two crickets but she had no interest.

I've been putting our geckos in empty plastic Sterilite containers when offering crickets. That works well for Ziggy who turns into a voracious (if clumsy) predator. Manila just wants to get out; she ignores the crickets. Sterilite is too slippery for her to climb but she keeps trying.

I am thinking about putting the crickets in her 20L aquarium and see what happens. My reason for using Sterilite containers was to keep most of the calcium powder on the crickets, and to eliminate visual obstacles. It works well for Ziggy but not for Manila. After 12-15 minutes I move the geckos back to their terraria and put the crickets back in their bin.

Maybe when our roaches arrive that will solve Manila's fussiness. I can just put the dubias in a small ceramic dish and let her feast at her own schedule. I prefer not to get in the rut of forceps feedings as that obviates natural predatory instincts.
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
Manila prefers to feed in the dark! She ate 3 crickets last evening when I left her in the Sterilite container for 45 minutes. Ziggy doesn't care how many lights are on nor who's spectating, he's just fine chasing down crickets until his sides bulge out: bugs goes into container and – voom! – they're gone. Manila is a coy little girlie: she watches, and watches, and watches. When nobody is looking, she makes her move. Neither gecko shows much interest in CGD.

Cassi, I've been reading about crested gecko nutrition at PangeaReptile forums, and I came across similar info about fruit Ca/P ratios. In fairness, Ziggy ate maybe 25% of a 1/4 inch slice of banana smushed up and Manila ate half of a 1/4 inch slice. They've been getting heavy dustings of calcium at every cricket feeding, so I doubt either is behind in calcium.

Vitamin D is a tricky subject in herps and humans. After reading lots about calcium and hypo/hypervitaminosis D in cresties, I decided to purchase Repashy SuperCal MeD. That formulation seems to get the D3 level just right, unlike the Rep-Cal sold in local pet shops. I'm still trying to find an optimal multivitamin for my finicky eaters. Maybe they'll start taking CGD more vigorously when the hours grow longer, or maybe not. I'm still reading and thinking... there are so many different opinions out there, it's hard to separate fact from superstition. Some people loudly proclaim cresties shouldn't get insects more than once a month. Others feed insects daily. It's hard to imagine crested geckos receive such attention in the wild! Do all wild cresties suffer chronic MBD from eating unsupplemented insects and fruit?
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
I use Miner-All I, which has just the proper D3 amount in it. I did not make it clear before, but you are 100% right with the risks of overdoses with many supplements found on the pet market.

I have to agree, MBD is a typical plague for captive reptiles, I doubt they suffer from it in the wild. They are exposed in their native habitats to other threats such as predators and parasites, yet I have never seen any freshly imported gecko with MBD.

About your gecko only eating in the dark- this will probably change with time and patience. Anyway, if you offer yours fruit, they have an acute sense of smell, no wonder your gecko will properly spot fruit in its enclosure ;)
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
Thorr, I read a couple other endorsements of Miner-All from seasoned crestie owners. I also read several people who use flavored gecko diet, not just the generic-flavored Repashy CGD. Papaya seems especially popular among cresties but I haven't found anyplace to buy it as a mix. Mango, fig and banana flavored CGD are options that apparently appeal to some crested geckos but not to others. Peach flavor is reportedly a bust. I'm not sure my wife will agree to buying fresh mangos / papayas every week to feed the herps, and doing so still leaves open the vitamin question. Everyone agrees jar baby food is a bad idea nutritionally. Maybe we can buy a fresh papaya once a month, put it in the blender and freeze some of the excess in 0.5 ounce instant-serve cups. Frozen homemade foods probably hold up better nutritionally than jar baby food that's been sitting on a shelf who-knows-how-long.

Pangea makes a Fruit Mix that's designed to encourage finicky cresties onto CGD. I haven't read any testimonials about the product, but it sounds like what I'm interested in. Unfortunately the forum software prevents me from linking to Pangea Fruit Mix. (I hope I didn't offend anybody by posting specific product names – I'm searching for ideas, not making endorsements.)

I wonder if the vitamin challenges we face with captive crested geckos relates to inbreeding. Maybe they lost some important enzymes while breeding fantastic colors & friendly traits. I wonder if wild cresties may get enough UVB/UVA in their crepuscular lifestyles to keep the vitamin 1,25-OH-D3 level where it needs to be... though UVA/UVB penetration through forest is pretty minimal at dawn and dusk. It just doesn't make sense that they're so dependent on constant human intervention unless something is seriously amiss. I suspect inbreeding is the primary culprit here.
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
I quite agree with the last paragraph, yet in the wild they do receive direct sunrays and don't remain hidden all day long ;)
 

cassicat4

New member
While I've never personally used the Pangea fruit mix, I have read success stories about using the product if you have a gecko that naturally takes to fruit anyway. Some won't touch fruit so it would have no effect. Another option is to add a little bit of organic honey to the CGD to sweeten it up and tempt your gecko.

As for crickets - you're right, you will read many many opinions on how much or how often to feed. What you ultimately do does come down to research and sorting out what sounds reasonable, what doesn't, and what works for your geckos. I don't believe there is any one right way of doing things.

Experiences vary, but my personal experience on feeding crickets is that my geckos got bored of them if fed more than 2 or 3 times per week. If I feed only once or twice a week, they'll eagerly hunt them down and look for more. Fed more often, they didn't put much effort into hunting, and would only go for them if the crickets happened to wander by in front of them. I like the variety of crickets, but I also like my geckos to be excited about what they eat, so I cut back to maintain their interest. I find this can occur with many reptiles, not just cresteds - variety is important.
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
A few other thoughts about MBD from human physiology: estrogen and parathormone levels have significant impacts on bone density. Exercise (or lack thereof) can cause cause excessive mineralization in cortical bone instead of forming strong cross-linkages in trabecular bone. Bones have piezoelectric properties triggered by flexion-extension, with direct and indirect impacts on osteoblast-osteoclast homeostasis. Using this knowledge, accelerated bone mending can be promoted by applying small electric currents across fracture sites. This is particularly useful in paraplegics. Another point is that critical steps of vitamin D metabolism, and a big part of calcium metabolism, occurs in the kidneys – which explains why dialysis patients get in such trouble with hypo/hypercalcemia and phosphate problems.

I'm not sure how any of this relates to Diplodactylidae, but perhaps there's more going on than dietary supplementation and sunlight alone. I wonder about hormonal or renal changes from inbreeding, and/or gecko inactivity. Maybe crested geckos need to leap from branch-to-branch every couple hours to stimulate normal calcium deposition.

I don't have the sense from what I've read that even herp experts really know what's going on with details of gecko endocrinology. If you don't understand exactly what's wrong, it's harder to know what to do. Maybe from the hobbyist's standpoint it doesn't matter as long as we choose reasonable products and use them correctly.
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
Cassi, you make several excellent and helpful points. I think our Ziggy would eat crickets all day long if his stomach could hold them. Manila just isn't that thrilled with any food offering, and maybe that's just her settling in or a seasonal effect. Supply-demand curves don't just work in economics, but also in biology... too much supply and the demand trails off.

I think we'll try different fresh fruits like papaya and mango and see what the little guys choose. Organic honey is a great tip, too. Maybe that will help me figure out what to do.

Theory is one thing and pragmatism is another. Thanks for all your help!
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
I bought a mango and a papaya yesterday, neither fully ripe. The quality of less common tropical fruit we get in Wisconsin is not good due to being picked too early. I'll wait until the papaya and mango ripen then offer fresh fruit puree to see which is preferred.

In the meantime I added a couple drops of clover honey to 3/4 tsp CGD last night, but there were no takers. Ziggy gulped down three dubia roach nymphs beforehand so his belly may have been too full for honey-sweetened CGD. Manila turned her nose up at the two 1/2 inch roaches despite having plenty of time and a darkened room, and she ate no CGD overnight. At this point she's not eating anything. I don't know if she ever saw a dubia roach before – perhaps the sight and smell are unfamiliar. Maybe I should try 1/4 inch or smaller roach nymphs alternating with small crickets to reactivate her predatory instincts?

I wonder if Manila needs more privacy? Her 20L terrarium is in a darkened corner of our family room, which has no humans 18-20 hours of the day. Her terrarium is mostly surrounded by bricks & walls on 2.5 sides of her tank and covered by screen + cardboard to keep humidity level around 80%. I'm thinking about putting cardboard in front of her terrarium to see if that will make her feel more secure. Another thought is to remove some of her hides after taping cardboard across the front.

My last thought is that perhaps she's never been alone before. Nothing I've read suggests crested geckos are social animals. I really don't want to put Ziggy in with her during quarantine and risk having my happy-boy gecko develop some infectious or parasitic problem.

I am at a loss to know what will make Manila want food. I hope to avoid entering a ketotic starvation mode where she loses her appetite totally. Humans do that, but reptilian appetites may work differently.
 

cassicat4

New member
When exactly did you purchase your geckos?

Some cresties can take some time to settle in. Two weeks without eating is not unusual. My very skittish female (who was 8 months old when purchased, and fully established on Repashy) didn't eat for that long, no matter what she was offered. I left her alone other than to mist, and change out her water and food, and then she eventually came around.

Has Manila been drinking? They can go for a long time without food, but not so long without water.

If you have enough foliage/hides/cover in your gecko's enclosure, and she's secluded like you say, I'd be surprised if privacy/security was the issue. I would say she's merely still settling in. If anything, I would consider adding more foliage/cover/hides to your gecko's enclosure if you think it is a matter of security. Unless you plan on keeping your gecko permanently sealed off from the rest of the world, I believe adding a cardboard cover would just add a new level of adjustment your gecko would have to go through once it's removed.
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
Absolutely, patience is the key.

About minerals, especially calcium, assimilation: I don't think most keepers are aware of the different metabolic rates of assimilation depending, among other factors, on which molecule is used as a vehicle for bone calcium. Calcium carbonate, used in most supplements on the market, has a low assimilation rate compared to calcium gluconate. Keepers tend to forget about the risks of overdosing calcium and causing kidney stones in their animals. I have already mentioned here the case of an Uromastyx lizard autopsy with a kidney stone the size of a golf ball. So what is exactly the right intake for geckos? Good question. I am not aware of any vet paper or study about this. I should be grateful if someone sends me a link or the PDF of such a study if it has been made before. Now there are probably big differences from one species to another.

WildWildMidwest: from my experience, crested geckos stay away from any source of acidity. That is why ripe fruit is preferrable. Have you tried to add some sugar or honey in the homemade fruit mash?

Figs also have a very appropriate Ca/P ratio. Oranges too, but IMO no crested gecko will ever try to eat the latter.

When you say 20L, is that 20 liters? Unless you have a hatchling, it seems a fairly small enclosure to me!

You are right when you say hobbyists use recipes that work and many will not debate on scientific issues such as endocrinology. The thing is, such studies demand money and time, so who will pay for it, if there is no financial interest behind it? Universities all have a limited budget for such studies.
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
When exactly did you purchase your geckos?
We purchased Ziggy on 12/2/12, and Manila from a different store on 12/7/12.

Has Manila been drinking?
I think so. She has 3 identical water dishes and one seems to be emptied faster than the other two (evaporative losses?) I spray down her plastic plant so water droplets hang from the leaves each evening. Ziggy's terrarium seems to condense droplets on the glass, and I've seen him lick glass or plastic plant leaves for a drink.

Unless you plan on keeping your gecko permanently sealed off from the rest of the world, I believe adding a cardboard cover would just add a new level of adjustment your gecko would have to go through once it's removed.
That makes sense. I didn't want to start forceps feedings for the same reason — it's not workable long term. Ultimately these geckos are the children's pets and the kids are going to be responsible for them. I am involved more than I want to be in order to get problems solved and to have things running smoothly during the first 4-6 weeks. I will gradually hand gecko care over to the children as I see fit, with lots of parental supervision initially then less so as time passes. We have a mature ten year old daughter and a typical-goofy 12 year old son. Their 13 year old cousin in Milwaukee has two leopard geckos which he manages without any parental oversight. He helped our son pick out Ziggy. His mother says he does everything, and she usually isn't even aware there are any lizards in her home (a good thing, from her perspective). The leopard geckos helped him mature a lot in the past eight months. So we selected "easy starter geckos" to avoid turning the kids off their reptiles and to allow occasional brief handling. Our son reads avidly about gecko care. He will be getting another crested gecko book for Christmas. He earned the money to buy his gecko, terrarium and other supplies by doing yard work. Our daughter's best girl friend (also 10) helped her select Manila in the store, and she is running a pet-sitting business that will eventually include reptile care, plus the usual dogs / cats / hamsters / chinchillas.

We will keep offering both geckos their CGD each evening along with fresh water, spot paper towel clean-ups and a couple sprays of water mist. I remove leftover CGD each morning and put it in the refrigerator so the geckos are not constantly exposed to drying CGD. Day-old CGD goes back in the terrarium for a second night, usually with an extra drop of water to soften it up, then what's leftover after the second night gets put in the roach bin.

My wife has about reached her limit with All Things Gecko, so it's time for me to back off soon. I'll probably reduce insect feeding frequency starting tonight, though my wife enjoys watching Ziggy eat (it's a good public relations gesture by Mr. Z.) It's hard to stop giving bugs to Ziggy because he's so enthusiastic & fun to watch, just a feisty little predator. Nightly offerings aren't working as well for Manila. We'll probably cut Ziggy's roaches / crickets to every other night and Manila's to every third night. I'll offer both geckos papaya or mango mush a couple of times after they're ripened, then freeze the leftover fruit mush in 1 oz plastic medication cups inside a Ziploc bag with some baking soda beneath the cups to keep freezer odors out. I don't plan on buying $4 mangos to feed reptiles every week, but it's OK as a treat. I looked for fresh figs yesterday but couldn't find any in the supermarket.

We're deeply very appreciative of all the guidance you've given us with these little devils! Despite their small sizes, Ziggy and Manila earned big places in our hearts.
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
Thorr, you make excellent points. Sorry I could not answer your question earlier as our children were getting home from school:

When you say 20L, is that 20 liters? Unless you have a hatchling, it seems a fairly small enclosure to me!

20L is my shorthand for a 20 gallon long terrarium with dimensions of 12 x 12 x 30 inches. At present I have this terrarium oriented horizontally, as my cresties haven't shown huge interest in climbing high up. I may reorient the 20L tank vertically sometime in the future but it's convenient not to do so now.

You are right when you say hobbyists use recipes that work and many will not debate on scientific issues such as endocrinology. The thing is, such studies demand money and time, so who will pay for it, if there is no financial interest behind it? Universities all have a limited budget for such studies.

Veterinary vitamin supplements themselves apparently have lots of variation, with no equivalent of FDA mandated Recommended Daily Allowance, and many even lack an expiration date. Here's an interesting opinion article on vitamins:

Vitamin and Mineral Supplementation for Herps

One quote I find particularly salient:
One last thing to keep in mind when considering buying a made-for-reptile vitamin product: they are not subject to the same truth-in-advertising nor quality control standards required to be met by producers of vitamins and supplements for humans. Human vitamin and supplement products are required to carry expiration dates. Vitamins have a rather short shelf life and should be used or discarded by the expiration date. Check the bottles of reptile vitamin products, and chances are you won't see one - pet stores generally do not turn over stock fast enough, and having to discard or return unsold stock to the manufacturer/distributor would be a hassle - and cost someone money. On the other hand, you and probably some of your family members can take the same human vitamins you use for your reptiles - a good multivitamin/mineral/trace element supplement and a calcium supplement. Just because the pet product manufacturers are making vitamins, doesn't mean they really know what they are doing or that they have actually conducted rigorous tests or relied on any such tests in developing their product."

I located a couple retailers of the Nekton-Rep vitamin you mentioned in your article, "Crested geckos care and breeding, the basics." When you use this product once a month, how do you deliver it — in the drinking water, on feeder bugs, or by some other route?
 

WildWildMidwest

New member
The more I think about vitamins, especially freshness (or lack thereof) with CGD, I begin to wonder if reptile vitamins are actually as balanced as everyone thinks. Maybe they're perfectly balanced straight from the factory... but what about when the customer unknowingly buys CGD or other brands four years later?

I am considering crushing up a human multivitamin and using a tiny quantity in my gecko's drinking water every couple of weeks. This approach has the advantages of being affordable, locally available, and FDA certified to the contents. Downside risk is overdosage.

Pet vitamin manufacturers generally don't seem to list quantities or even identities of each vitamin in their supplements. That's apparently a trade secret. So it's hard to know if one or more components of human multivitamins are excessive or even toxic. Nekton's PDF file doesn't say much about what's inside. The best info I've found about this supplement is here:

Nekton Nutritional Supplements Ingredients and Use Instructions

So, I'm trying to make an informed decision: do I buy "reptile vitamins" which may not even contain measurable quantities of active vitamin, and may contain who-knows-what-else, or do I risk overdosage with human multivitamins? Still thinking....
 
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