Alternative Method for Giving Vitamins / Calcium w D3

[Thin Lizzy]

I've had Howie for about 2 months now and he has settled in well and has put on 10g. His colours are bright and his eyes are clear. His legs are strong and he carries himself nice and tall when moving about. Howie is a young adult male. I'm guessing approx a year old as he is still shedding every 2 weeks. He is approx 9 inches from nose to tip and now weighs 59g.

I've been feeding him crickets dusted with Reptivite and ReptiCalcium with D3 [approx 8-10 large per week], he also gets butterworms [2-3/week] mealworms [15-20/week] and he gets a hornworm as a treat once per week. I don't dust any of the worms, just the crickets.

He is not an avid cricket hunter. He's quite passive and waits until they come into his hide then picks them off. He doesn't seem to like the dusted crickets at all, and given the choice will always snap up a plain cricket instead. I've tried dusting the mealworms, but he will just lick them and walk away.

My concern is he's not getting enough vitamins and D3. Though he's showing no symptoms whatsoever that would point to this, I just want to be proactive.

He will munch on his ReptiCalcium [NO D3] in the tank regularly.

Has anyone else found their geckos don't like dusted feeders? Is there any alternative to administering vitamins? or Should I be concerned given my regimen listed above?

PS: My crickets are fed with carrots & oatmeal and are gut loaded with Fluker's High Calcium.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I've heard of this a few times but never experienced. Honestly, everyone I know of who switched to Repashy found their geckos were happy to eat the dusted insects then - but that doesn't make it true for all of them. But if your gecko doesn't like what you're using, it's worth trying other supplements (not necessarily Repashy - that was just an example).

~Maggot

 

[Thin Lizzy]

I was just researching Repashy... I really like the idea of an all in one. Just makes sense. Do you still leave calcium in the tank?

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Well I've never known of anyone who uses Repashy to find it necessary except for breeding females. Of course, there are some people who say you shouldn't have calcium in the enclosure at all, so, really, that's up to you whether you decide to try Repashy or not.

~Maggot

 

[cricket4u]

I've been feeding him crickets dusted with Reptivite and ReptiCalcium with D3 [approx 8-10 large per week], he also gets butterworms [2-3/week] mealworms [15-20/week] and he gets a hornworm as a treat once per week. I don't dust any of the worms, just the crickets.


Reptivite with D3 or without?
You are dusting [approx 8-10 large per week] crickets with both products mixed together or separate days?
So the mealworms [15-20/week] are not dusted at all?

 

[Thin Lizzy]

Reptivite with D3 or without?
You are dusting [approx 8-10 large per week] crickets with both products mixed together or separate days?
So the mealworms [15-20/week] are not dusted at all?

Dusting with a blend 1:1 Reptivite with D3 & ReptiCalcium with D3. He gets 8-10 Dusted Crickets per week. I do not dust any of his other feeders.

 

[cricket4u]

Dusting with a blend 1:1 Reptivite with D3 & ReptiCalcium with D3. He gets 8-10 Dusted Crickets per week. I do not dust any of his other feeders.

Will rephrase shortly.

 

[Thin Lizzy]

Oh no your gecko's diet is everywhere. Why are you mixing them? I have heard of leos refusing too eat when too much calcium is offered. You are gutloading with high calcium and dusting with separate bottles = too much calcium. If anything the mealworms being the lowest in calcium should be dusted at all times. You have already raised the cacium level in the crickets by gutloading with 8% calcium and d3.

Nice Catch! I misread the vitamin section in the care sheet. I can tweak my dusting ritual accordingly. Also considering switching to Repashy just in case it's a "taste/smell" thing.

Question though... I could be overthinking this, but, if he was getting too much calcium, Why would he still be munching calcium from his dish? I thought the ingested as much as they required. His previous owner did not gutload or provide calcium in any way. I thought he may have been loading up, as needed.

 

[Thin Lizzy]

Just reread the caresheet, a couple times just to make sure I wasn't making things up in my head and found this:

Gutloading the Feeders versus Feeding the Feeders 24/7
The term gutloading causes some confusion. Feed your feeders a nutritious regular diet all the time to build strong feeder bodies. Then only feed a special GUTLOAD product to the crickets, for example, 1-2 days prior to feeding the crickets to your geckos. T-REX Calcium Plus Cricket Food is a good gutload food. Top off the crickets by lightly dusting with a multivitamin containing D3/vitamin A acetate and phosphorus-free calcium with D3 no more than 2x weekly.

I thought I was doing things right, though I was using Flukers instead of T-Rex. To say Howie's diet is "All over the place." really?

 

[cricket4u]

You mentioned he is eating them dusted correct, even if he's skeptical?

 

[Thin Lizzy]

I offer up 4-5 dusted crickets a couple times per week. He never eats them right away and I'll generally find 1 or 2 dead ones when cleaning up his tank. I didn't think this was near enough for him to be eating, which is why I began offering up other feeders [mealworms, butterworms, hornworms] which he will eat as long as they're not dusted.

 

[cricket4u]

I offer up 4-5 dusted crickets a couple times per week. He never eats them right away and I'll generally find 1 or 2 dead ones when cleaning up his tank. I didn't think this was near enough for him to be eating, which is why I began offering up other feeders [mealworms, butterworms, hornworms] which he will eat as long as they're not dusted.

This is why every detail is important. You wrote he eats 8-10 dusted crickets a week. The problem is not all high calcium diets are created equal, therefore Elizabeth provided you with a specific Brand name instead of "use any high calcium product." The supplement section of the caresheet is not something I agree with. The problem is it is impossible to come up with a dusting schedule to fit every individual poster's gecko's needs. Elizabeth's concern is if she does not provide any info to the Noobs, their gecko's can easily be at risk of overdose due to the OP's lack of knowledge.

Elizabeth and I have discussed this problem several times, unfortunately there is no solution do to the variables: age, diet, gutload, insects fed, ect. My personal solution is the OP has to educate themselves in regards to what is a balanced diet. There's tons of information, if only everyone took the time to read they will figure it out. Also establishing a relationship with a veterinarian, keeping a log on weight, eating habits, bowel movements, growth will help the vet help you decide on a proper diet to fit your gecko's individual needs.

I also use Reptivite, however not as frequently as most due to the fact I provide at least 3 different types of insects a week and I have a little more knowledge in regards to balancing the insect. Is there a perfect solution? Not as of yet. The key is to educate yourself and do the best you can to provide a balanced diet. My feeding and supplemental schedule will not fit your gecko's needs due to the variables mentioned above and the fact that I use UVB.

Personally I refuse to depend on supplements instead of gut loading properly and feeding variety. If you are providing a good gutload and throwing multivitamins on top, chances are it will lead to excess. Excess of supplements can cause health problem, sometimes years later. Hence, the reason I did not agree with buying Repashy to dust every insect. Fluker's high calcium is not vitamin enriched and therefore not a good product. When someone recommends a product, make sure to buy the exact one if you expect to achieve the desired results.

Hint: Read through the threads in the feeder and food section. There are studies posted by some members which provide helpful information in regards to the nutritional values of each insect.

 

[Thin Lizzy]

I appreciate the time you've taken to reply. I agree 100% that supplements should be just that, supplementary to the core diet. I admit that as a Noob, I find the supplement section the most complicated aspect of the Care Sheet. I've got a lot to learn and find it difficult deciphering so much information from so many sources. It's hard to determine which sources are reliable.

 

[cricket4u]

I understand how you feel trust me, I've been in your shoes. In time you will understand and realize how difficult it is to explain to someone that we cannot provide you with a perfect schedule to fit your gecko's needs based on only a few details. The more you read, the more you will learn and eventually develop a schedule you're comfortable with. Begin with,"What does a balanced diet consist of?" Next take notes on the nutritional values of each insect and how to increase their values. It sounds overwhelming, but you'll figure it out.

This should help some and was originally posted by MOD Hilde in the feeder section.

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&...JQNWuH&sig=AHIEtbQOXmmx-22DDe94-79dU0Q6S3El8A

Gut-loading diets for crickets (adults and nymphs) should be supplemented to contain the following nutrients, respectively: Ca (51 and 32 g/kg), vitamin A (8,310 and 5,270 µg retinol/kg), vitamin D (300 and 190 µg cholecalciferol/kg), vitamin E (140 and 140 mg RRR-α-tocopherol/kg), thiamin (31 and 21 mg/kg), and pyridoxine (20 and 10 mg/kg).

Studies have shown that "gut loading" crickets with a diet containing at least eight percent calcium fed for at least 48 hours prior to being used as a food item for reptiles and amphibians would produce a meal that had a Ca ratio of 1:1 or higher (Allen and Oftedal, 1989). Crickets that received dietary supplementation of calcium of 8% or greater also had three times the calcium content of those that were dusted with calcium supplement - but not gut loaded prior to being used as prey items (Trusk and Crissey, 1987).

Each reptile species may have its own unique dietary requirements for calcium. Leopard geckos that were fed crickets gut loaded for greater than 48 hours with diets con*taining at least 8% calcium were found to have significantly greater body weights as well as higher bone ash and bone cal*cium than leopard geckos fed crickets maintained on diets of less than 2% calcium (Allen, et al, 1986). Radiographs and histopathology also evidenced better bone integrity in leopard geckos fed higher calcium containing crickets (Allen, 1989). No significant differences in bone ash were attributed to dietary vitamin D3 (Allen, et al, 1986). Also, it has been sug*gested that the insect prey items be offered slices of orange and apple or other food items as a water source. In order to prevent prey items from gut loading these food items in pref*erence to the high calcium diet provided, it is probably more appropriate to provide a water soaked sponge as a water source (Allen and Oftedal, 1989).

Here we have a cricket study. One thing that you want to keep in mind is the amounts specified of each nutrient. The nutrient may be in your pet store gutload, however in amounts too miniscule to make a difference in the insect. Take notice of how little nutrients are mentioned. Well the problem with this is the study's main focus was based on what it takes to increase the calcium, not how to provide a complete diet. As you may already know the body requires a wide range of nutrients in order to function properly.

This is why it's important to use a well balanced gutload which provides more than just high calcium if you want to avoid the use of supplements in excess. When indeed you provide high calcium, it would be best to only offer water. What I have observed is the crickets are not fond of the high calcium and will eat the fruits or veggies instead of the gutload.

One of the most common mistakes some people make is offer for example: a carrot, an apple and oatmeal. The cricket hops over to their favorite food item and ignores the rest ,therefore not providing a well balanced wide range of nutrients to your gecko leading to deficiencies. On the other hand if you provide a balanced and well blended gutload, the crickets will be forced to eat it all.

 

[cricket4u]

Now as far as taste, I've heard of geckos refusing to eat with both Reptivite and Repashy to be honest, although I do believe it is more common with Reptivite. Normally with persistence they will eventually give in as well as lighter dusting. The reason I mentioned there was a possibility due to too much calcium was simply because you mentioned you were feeding high calcium, mixing 2 calcium products on top. There has been instances in which a gecko started refusing to eat with even plain calcium which I have never seen a taste issue with. When I questioned supplemental history, there was lots of calcium involved such as high calcium gutload.

I wanted to r/o what I was hesitant to believe, gecko refusing due to plain calcium taste(very unlikely when they eat it out of the dish). I told the person to stop the high calcium diet for at least 2 weeks. After 3 weeks the gecko stopped refusing the plain calcium dusted crickets. I can only conclude that the gecko somehow sensed he was taking in too much calcium. Perhaps it was causing stomach upset or some level of constipation?

In your situation it may have been the taste, however you mentioned him eating them and due to the high calcium I wasn't sure. Have you tried plain calcium to see if he refuses as well? On days you were feeding undusted mealworms, I would expect the gecko to dive in the calcium dish due to the low calcium imbalance. This is why I stated the diet was all over the place. Poor choice of words, I apologize.

As stated in the study:
Studies have shown that "gut loading" crickets with a diet containing at least eight percent calcium fed for at least 48 hours prior to being used as a food item for reptiles and amphibians would produce a meal that had a Ca ratio of 1:1 or higher

We aim for 2:1, however it is highly possible to exceed (or higher) and depending on how heavy you are dusting as well.

 

[Thin Lizzy]

Thank you "Cricket4U" for your extensive replies. I've got lots of reading to do. Will keep you posted on how everything turns out. :biggrin: