Mniarogekko jalu

[Yann]

Hello!!

I have home on loan since this week-end a pair of what I believe to be Mniarogekko jalu

It was possible to track down to the original wild caught individuals, which were captured in the northwest part of Mainland New Caledonia.
This pair is around 7 years old
The male seems to show 2-3 femorales pores rows which would fit jalu, which is also the case for the geographic origine

On pictures you can rather see the differences with the chahouas found in the hobby, I hope to have success with them as I have with chahouas

Here is the female, huge animal but very calme

Here is the male
Slightly smaller than the female, a lot more shy and nervous

Cheers
Yann

 

[thorrshamri]

Gorgeous animals Yann!

Hervé

 

[Yann]

Hi!!

To give you an idea of the size of the female

Cheers
Yann

 

[Hannibal]

They are stunning!!!!!!

 

[canthoo]

Nice animals. But they look rather like all the "mainland chahouas" available in europe. Only size and rows of pores are not sufficient to say this is M.jalu. If you want to be sure go through every detail described in bauers reclassification. There are a lot of big male chahous who only have 2 or 3 rows of pores.
From whom did you get them and who captured them?

 

[Yann]

Well the origin of the ancestors are north - northwest of mainland

In the description Bauer state That 3 rows are jalu 4 or more are chahoua
Since chahoua are restricted to south and middle mainland I really don't see what it could be else, plus these were not mixed with anything else!

So yes size, pores, geographic origin make it for jalu!!

Plus comparing these with other mainland clearly show différences
Cheers
Yann

 

[canthoo]

If you read my post carefully, i said that i know quite some male chahouas with 3 or less rows of pores. So that would make them all jalu?
Your female does not have pores what makes you think she is jalu? Besides that you claim they were collected in northern mainland.
So it boils down to the question if you can trust your research / the seller about their ancestors.
In my opinion you have to look at every detail before saying this is jalu and maybe selling them as those. Chahouas are a mess (locality-wise) already.

 

[Yann]

Well what makes you believe the one you saw with 3 pores were indeed chahoua or not crossed with jalu!!

I am just seeing and using what Bauer says!!

Yes I trust the person who did the research and the lineage of these animals!
They were not mixed with something else
Cheers
Yann

 

[thorrshamri]

I have the paper by BAUER, WHITAKER, SADLIER & JACKMAN, 2012. No doubt Yann is right. Pr. Aaron Bauer is certainly more qualified than us all to give criteria for IDing species. Unless canthoo is a taxonomist him/herself

 

[Yann]

Hi!!

The pair has settle in nicely, I have added a couple more plants which seems to have secure them a bit more, they explore the terrarium a lot more, saw them hunting on crickets but they haven't touch the fruits I have offer them, maybe a matter of time..

Here the male resting on a branch

Cheers
Yann

 

[canthoo]

Well no im not a taxonomist, but you dont understand what im trying to say here. Of course Yann is right that bauer stated that 3 or less pores in males are jalu, but his description of the species has a lot more details. As i said i know other males that have 3 rows of pores, so that cannot be the only feature to look at. And after we made sure of the males are jalu please tell me how to distinguish female jalu from female chahoua? Please dont say "caught in the north of NC". We all know how cloudy that is, look at the leachies how animals sometimes magically transform from one locale to another or chahouas will change from mainland to isle of pine or vice versa.
As i understand Yann is not willing to shed some light on the lineage of his chahoua/jalu, why? If they are CB there should be others around and it would be good for people to know about it. At least people can judge for themselves if they want to trust that source.
Im not trying to bash Yann and im not even sure if he has jalu or chahoua (thats why i asked him to go through every detail of bauers description and not only the pores), but im concerned that other people will see this, look at their males, ofc with 3 rows of pores, and voila jalu! And i bet if you sell your animals as jalu the price will be much more than chahoua. So people will tell you that they have jalu, and eventually these will mix up with real jalus, just messing up chahoua/jalu more.
So please enlighten me on the difference of female jalu/chahoua and maybe Yann could give us some insight on the lineage of his animals.

 

[Yann]

Canthoo:

I understand your suspiscion, and no problem, and I know how difficult it can be to trust what is being said.

Again like I said what makes you believe that the chahouas you have seen with 3 pores were indeed chahouas (pure) and not hybride mixed up or pure jalu. Again Bauer is pretty clear with the number of pores in chahouas. So the one you saw were either jalu or hybrids, but until proven differently by science, no chahoua have 3 rows of pores.

So I ll assumed your question is rather are these jalu pure or not.

Regarding the lineage and my unwillingness to give more details, well so far there are no youngs from these, and the first are likely to be kept, so why giving informations regarding a lineage that could be used by people having mixed up animals showing 3 rows of pores to sell them at higher price. But the information will be given when necessary

They are indeed at least 1-2 other pairs in captivity, and also likely a fair amount of mixed up animals.

Regarding if the jalu female is indeed a jalu and not a chahoua, well with this one no much to worry as it is from the same line

As suggested elsewhere, I ll try to snap pictures of both species side by side, so maybe it should help calm a bit the septicism of this...;-)

Cheers
Yann

 

[mikew1234]

Diagnosis. Mniarogekko jalu n. sp. is a large (to 140 mm SVL) diplodactylid. It may be distinguished from its sister taxon M. chahoua by its much lower number of precloacal pores in males (< 95 [range 54–91] versus ~120) typically arranged in three (Fig. 19), rather than four rows. Color comparisons between the two species of Mniarogekko are difficult to make. There are relatively few wild caught M. chahoua in museum collections and captive animals have been bred for particular color patterns (de Vosjoli et al. 2003) so ‘wild type’ coloration, which is itself already quite variable (Bauer 1985; Seipp & Henkel 2000, 2011; Stark 2006; Langner 2009), is difficult to characterize. Ventral body coloration in the new species seems to be uniformly a pale yellowish green (Figs. 19–20), whereas M. chahoua is often white or cream, with a greenish tinge localized to some parts of the venter.



Diagnosis (genus). Mniarogekko may be distinguished from all other New Caledonian diplodactylid geckos by the following combination of character states: body large (to 147 mm SVL); head moderately-sized; tail approximately equal to SVL; dorsal scalation granular, homogeneous; loose folds of skin present on margins of mandible and along ventrolateral border of body; expanded undivided subdigital lamellae under all toes; webbing between digits relatively extensive; claw of digit I of manus and pes positioned lateral to a single, undivided apical lamella; precloacal pores in three or four rows in males, anterior two rows extending onto base of thighs (70–120 pores in total); dorsal color pattern highly variable but consisting of a gray, olive, brown, reddish or orangey background usually with dark middorsal blotches and/or transverse markings, with one or more patches of ashy to lichenous green patches; venter cream to greenish.



That's the description of both species. Honestly, it just blurs it more, as Chahoua can have three plus, and Jalu can have three or less. I have seen wild caught geckos from the mainland in someone's collection. Some fit Jalu, others fit Chahoua. They were all collected around the same area. His male fits the Jalu description. It's as simple as that.

There will be skepticism no matter what, Yann. The same as my Pine Isles from Germany not truly being Pine Isle as per some breeders. (I still only use Pine Isle and Mainland as classification)

 

[Yann]

Hi Mike

Thanks for your answer.

These Mniarogekko from the same collection area fitting both chahoua and jalu were from what place?

I totally undertand your comments on Pine Island chahoua.
Canthoo is also correct that chahoua has been a total mess with localities being mixed up. It is always difficult to identify the lineage of our animal. But for these the lineage has been made up to WC animals. No other locality has been added in their lineage!!

Cheers
Yann

 

[mikew1234]

The ones I was referring to we're all considered mainland. I've also seen pine isle that were wc. They look completely different, which is why I was surprised they were not considered a ssp, as they look completely different than both types from the mainland.

 

[Yann]

Bauer did not included them as he had no sufficient material

Some are présents in collections but likely conserved in formoline which alter DNA structure so make these useless for DNA testing

I am after F2- F3 PI also

Cheers
Yann

 

[thorrshamri]

Yann- you mean your animals are F1 or F2?

 

[Yann]

Hi Hervé!!

Yes they are !!
By the way with all the info given to Bauer plus pictures, he confirmed the identification!!
Where these or the parents should I say, only Mniarogekko jalu occur and no chahoua!!
Cheers
Yann

 

[Yann]

Hi!!

She looks mean, but she is a very sweet and nice lady...at least for now, I really looking forward to see how she will be guarding eggs!!

Cheers
Yann

 

[Yann]

Hello!!

As requested, here is a pic side by side between jalu and chahoua

I took one of my female chahoua (Nouméa, red) and put her side by side with the female jalu (green)

Cheers
Yann