Feeding problems with fatty, again

[Muffins94]

Ugh, having problems with Fatty again guys. Usually I'm the one offering help, except I am so stumped this time. Thought I had beaten this, wondering if it could just be due to ovulation or something. In the past two weeks she has eaten 1 large mealworm that I have seen. She has a dish of mealworms every night but doesn't look like she touches them. Temps are fine, no changes recently except a new humid hide, which she doesn't leave often. Behavior is normal, no change there. She doesn't seem to have lost any weight. She's still (too) pudgy. She tends to do little hunger strikes time to time but it just worries me. Any ideas?

 

[cricket4u]

Hi Melissa,

After so many threads, I can't remember full details. Can you refresh my memory? Instead of extensive back and forward questioning, it may be best to fill out the questionnaire so that I have everything in front of me.

It doesn't sound like anything critical, however, it's always best to make sure there's nothing slightly off that may be causing a problem.

A picture of her and the enclosure would be very helpful.

 

[Muffins94]

Cricket,
I have had my leopard gecko for about a year and a half, I got her from Petco when she was just a hatchling. Bad place to get them, I know, however at the time I fell in love with her and had to have her. She started in a 10 gallon as a hatchling, then moved to a 15 gallon and is currently in a 20 long and eventually will get a 40 gallon. She ate fine as a baby, and as she reached the 8 month-ish mark, I was recommended(which I know is wrong), to give her waxworms. I did for a few months or so, just because she loved them, but soon I saw she began to become overweight so I looked up waxworms and found how horrifically fattening they are and she hasn't got one since. After I took them away from her it took about a month to get her to accept crickets and mealworms as a staple again. Ever since, she has gone through these periods of times that are like mini hunger strikes, which she is currently doing.


General Information
Species of lizard: Leopard Gecko
Gecko's name: Fatty :lol:
Morph: High Yellow
Gender: Female
Age: Around 1 yr 6 mo
Weight: Unknown
Total length: Unknown
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it: Hatchling length
Source (pet store, breeder, previous owner): Pet store- Petco
Captive bred or wild caught: CB

Vivarium
Enclosure dimensions (length x width x heighth): 30x12x16
Cage (type, size): Glass 20 gallon long Terrafauna
Substrate provided: Tile
Types of hiding places provided: Gecko cave, wooden log, rock house
Is there a humidity hide? location? Yes, warm side
Please describe any other furnishings: Décor and dishes
List recent changes in the environment, if any: New humid hide, went from Tupperware to Gecko cave

Lighting
Artificial lighting
Incandescent (“screw-in” bulbs): wattage(s): Day light 25 watt, moonlight 60 watt (only when needed)
Fluorescent (tube bulbs):
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window: Yes

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage? Yes
What type and brand of thermometer (digital with probe, temperature gun, LCD strip, analog (circle), combo digital thermometer/hygrometer, stainless steel aquarium type, other): Digital with probe
What is the ground temperature right on the substrate under the warm dry hide: 90-92
What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground: Unknown
What is the air temperature on the cool end about 4 inches up from the ground: Around 75
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (Under Tank Heater, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, Flexwatt heat tape, hot rock, other): UTH
Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners): Wooden blocks
Are you using a thermostat(s)? Yes
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Humid
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much? Somewhat, day light off. Moonlight used on cold nights.

Humidity
Is the humidity measured? Yes
Humidity range: Approx 30-40%

Diet
Insects and worms, list type: Crickets and large mealworms
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms: Crickets- Cricket quencher, cricket gutload powder, fruits/veggies. Mealworms on a bed of oats/gutload with carrots, apples or celery provided.
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with? Yes, gutload mixture
How often do you feed your gecko? 3 times a week, however now that she wont eat I have been offering food every night.
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often? Repashy calcium plus. Sprinkle on food once a week.
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both? Repashy calcium plus with D3
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without? Without
Multivitamins (include brand name)? Repashy
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet:

General Health
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs:
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased? Normal
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? Decreased
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss or gain): No
Discharge from the eyes or nose: No
Increased breathing rate or effort: No
Change in the droppings: Not as frequent (due to not eating)
Urates
---white or yellowish: White
---size of urates as compared to size of feces: Smaller
Abnormal skin color or shedding: No
Parasites on the skin or in the feces: No
Weakness: No

Previous problems and/or illnesses: Hunger strikes

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household
List other animals that are kept in the same cage: None
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): Kittens
Are any of your other pets ill? No




This is my girl.

And here's enclosure pics I just took on my phone, sorry for the size/quality:
Whole enclosure set up, 30x12x16 with tile
Cool side
Warm side
Her laying in the humid hide right before I gave it a spray.

 

[cricket4u]

Hunger strikes-at different times?

I will point out what can cause the problem based on the information you provided.

Mealworms in a dish is not ideal especially at her age. Access to too much fat, chitin and if not dusted will lead to a diet too high in phosphorus. Sometimes too much chitin can cause constipation as well.

Air temp should be monitored. If the air temps are too high, the leo may go off food. This is how their body protects itself from dehydration and digestion issues. Digestion is mainly temp dependent in reptiles.

You mentioned she spends most of her time in the humidity hide- Could the thermostat probe reading be off(too high)? You will have to compare it to a digital thermometer probe for accuracy. Could it be due to high air temps? Check the air temp. Could she have a hide preference, one more secure than the other?

Repashy once a week- Unless you are feeding a high calcium diet to the insects, chances are the diet is quite unbalanced. Diet is a very difficult part of keeping them and it's not one size fit all unfortunately.

My recommendations:

1)Search for a good reptile vet and establish a relationship. The vet can help you figure out a supplementation schedule to fit your gecko's individual needs based on age, body condition, what insects you feed, what you gut load with and so on. Take the supplement with you and make sure he/she acknowledges the contents.

2)Buy a gram scale and begin monitoring(a log) weight, frequency of feeding, what was fed, dates, dates of ovulation, growth and anything that applies.

3) Keep extra thermometers to compare the main ones in use for accuracy.


You will have to play process of elimination to come up with the answer.

 

[cricket4u]

Just noticed you added new pictures. Time to cut back on those mealworms, she's overweight. If you can move her to a larger enclosure, it may help as well. More options and space to chase crickets. You may want to provide a hide more secure than the log.

 

[Muffins94]

She's overweight due to all the waxworms she was previously fed, she has lost some weight since taking them away that I have noticed.
As for mealworms, I normally do not leave them in the cage but since she hasn't been eating I figured I would give it a try. I feed her both crickets and mealworms, I am just currently out of crickets. I dust both feeders. And I do feed a high calcium gutload to them as well.
I monitor air temps with the digital probe thermometer. I have also checked the thermostat with another digital probe thermometer and its checks out about the same.
I think she likes the humidity hide because it is small and dark. However, she still will use the other hides.

I will however take account of all those recommendations and see what I can come up with. I just want to make sure she is healthy. When she doesn't want to eat it makes me nervous. Thank you!

 

[cricket4u]

You,re welcome. I went by your answers.

What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground: Unknown

 

[Muffins94]

Yeah I currently don't have a thermometer for the warm side air temps due to my last one breaking. I am rechecking my thermostat to a digital thermometer just to make sure it's still working correctly and I am waiting to see what temp my thermometer says when the thermostat turns off. Sadly I dont have a digital readout on this Zilla thermostat. I am making a run to the store tomorrow to get a few other digital thermometers, one for the thermostat itself and another for the warm air temp. Probably buy another as a back up too. I will also buy some crickets too. Question, since your not supposed to let crickets roam the cage constantly, how should I get her to eat them within a timely matter? Take out some of her hides?

 

[cricket4u]

Yeah I currently don't have a thermometer for the warm side air temps due to my last one breaking. I am rechecking my thermostat to a digital thermometer just to make sure it's still working correctly and I am waiting to see what temp my thermometer says when the thermostat turns off. Sadly I dont have a digital readout on this Zilla thermostat. I am making a run to the store tomorrow to get a few other digital thermometers, one for the thermostat itself and another for the warm air temp. Probably buy another as a back up too. I will also buy some crickets too. Question, since your not supposed to let crickets roam the cage constantly, how should I get her to eat them within a timely matter? Take out some of her hides?

I allow the crickets to roam around for them to chase up to an hour. You will eventually have an idea of how much to feed, therefore they should be gone before that unless your gecko is fat and lazy or has poor hunting skills or vision problems. They do become better at catching them with practice.

 

[Muffins94]

Okay, and if she doesn't eat them then what? Would taking hides out help so crickets can't hide? She used to be a pro at catching them as a baby, but those stupid wax worms fattened her up and made her lazy. I really hate it. She's actually currently laying in her warm hide as I'm watching the temp and thermostat, I also took off the heat bulbs just in case it's too hot of air temps.

 

[GeckoManiac91]

Yeah I currently don't have a thermometer for the warm side air temps due to my last one breaking. I am rechecking my thermostat to a digital thermometer just to make sure it's still working correctly and I am waiting to see what temp my thermometer says when the thermostat turns off. Sadly I dont have a digital readout on this Zilla thermostat. I am making a run to the store tomorrow to get a few other digital thermometers, one for the thermostat itself and another for the warm air temp. Probably buy another as a back up too. I will also buy some crickets too. Question, since your not supposed to let crickets roam the cage constantly, how should I get her to eat them within a timely matter? Take out some of her hides?

I feed crickets in a separate container. It eliminates the hassle of taking out hides, searching for lost crickets and personally I think it helps tame them also knowing they won't be fed in their regular tank.

 

[cricket4u]

Okay, and if she doesn't eat them then what? Would taking hides out help so crickets can't hide? She used to be a pro at catching them as a baby, but those stupid wax worms fattened her up and made her lazy. I really hate it. She's actually currently laying in her warm hide as I'm watching the temp and thermostat, I also took off the heat bulbs just in case it's too hot of air temps.

She will eat if you're able to find and correct the problem. There's also no need to feed her daily at this age. Every other day will be good and smaller amounts than usual until she loses a bit of weight.

You can remove the hides if you wish, I don't. I do not like the idea of removing them from their enclosure to feed. It can be stressful and some will not even feel comfortable chasing or eating them. How big of a bin can you offer as well? It would defeat the purpose of exercise by reducing space and making too easy.

No offense Geckomaniac91.

 

[GeckoManiac91]

She will eat if you're able to find and correct the problem. There's also no need to feed her daily at this age. Every other day will be good and smaller amounts than usual until she loses a bit of weight.

You can remove the hides if you wish, I don't. I do not like the idea of removing them from their enclosure to feed. It can be stressful and some will not even feel comfortable chasing or eating them. How big of a bin can you offer as well? It would defeat the purpose of exercise by reducing space.

No offense Geckomaniac91.

Non-taken at all. It is a fairly medium size bin 12x10x6. I understand why it could be stressful but she has no problem at all, has always eaten very well.
I am getting another Leo in a week or so and she will most likely be feed in her enclosure because I'm curious as too how they will hunt in a more natural environment as well as the stress factor.

I personally hate the idea of removing hides however, especially taking them out of their hides while they're in it. It seems so mean, like, they should feel safe in there and not be fearful it will just lift up over their head I just don't know how to stop the crickets from running and hiding and then I have to struggle to get them out and what not. Maybe I'm over thinking it, it just seems so much of a struggle :?

 

[cricket4u]

Non-taken at all. It is a fairly medium size bin 12x10x6. I understand why it could be stressful but she has no problem at all, has always eaten very well.
I am getting another Leo in a week or so and she will most likely be feed in her enclosure because I'm curious as too how they will hunt in a more natural environment as well as the stress factor.

I personally hate the idea of removing hides however, especially taking them out of their hides while they're in it. It seems so mean, like, they should feel safe in there and not be fearful it will just lift up over their head I just don't know how to stop the crickets from running and hiding and then I have to struggle to get them out and what not. Maybe I'm over thinking it, it just seems so much of a struggle :?

Perhaps you're thinking for them.:biggrin: The crickets are usually bouncing around and don't hide very quickly. Eventually your gecko becomes very good at catching them and only 1-2 decide to hide. The last one or 2, I just pull them out from where they are hiding, give them a pinch and toss them in front of the leo to finish. I like this:

I'm curious as too how they will hunt in a more natural environment

This below is human thinking and will not do your leo any favors, trust me.

it just seems so much of a struggle

Watching their natural behavior is priceless.

 

[GeckoManiac91]

Perhaps you're thinking for them.:biggrin: The crickets are usually bouncing around and don't hide very quickly. Eventually your gecko becomes very good at catching them and only 1-2 decide to hide. The last one or 2, I just pull them out from where they are hiding, give them a pinch and toss them in front of the leo to finish. I like this:

I'm curious as too how they will hunt in a more natural environment

This below is human thinking and will not do your leo any favors, trust me.

it just seems so much of a struggle

Watching their natural behavior is priceless.

Oh I didn't mean like the struggle was an inconvenience , of course I'll do whatever works!

 

[Muffins94]

Okay thanks. So I've been monitoring the temps over the past hour and it hasn't got over 88.5, which leads me to believe my UTH is faulty and that might be the cause of her feeding issues. Do you know if sand under the tile heats it up more or am I better off buying a new UTH while I'm at it? This one has been removed before and that's why it probably doesn't heat up as hot anymore. I had to move it from her 15 gal to the 20.
As for feeding, hopefully the heating is just the issue, which I'm thinking is the case. I offer food 3 times a week as well so I'll toss in a few crickets without the hides and HOPEFULLY I can get her to eat again. I have tried the bin feeding and it freaks her out. I checked and I don't *think* she's ovulating, however I don't know what I'm really looking for. I don't see big pink spots or anything.
You both are lucky that your geckos have high prey drive, I think those waxworms damaged Fatty's drive. She's lazy now...

 

[Mardy]

88.5 isn't bad, at least it shouldn't cause a gecko to stop eating. I personally prefer 90-93 range, you could try to up it via an alternate heating source like CHE, or get a new UTH if you think the one you have is faulty. You definitely don't want it to go under 88 for proper belly heating.

Could you put her in a clear container and take a pic of her belly? I can help you assess whether she's going through her cycles. Most of my female breeders have begun to eat this past month, as they're done ovulating & laying eggs. I do have a few that are still not eating yet. Of course by looking at her belly, we could notice something else.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Merissa ~

Have you heard about the Ultratherm heat pads sold by - The Bean Farm "Think" they are reusable cuz they have a different construction than the Zoo Med's do.

 

[cricket4u]

Merissa ~

Have you heard about the Ultratherm heat pads sold by - The Bean Farm "Think" they are reusable cuz they have a different construction than the Zoo Med's do.

Do you know anyone who has used it? I'm thinking it may not warm up enough to penetrate through the tile?

It says it's regulated to stay between 65f to 95f.

 

[Muffins94]

I will try to get a pic up soon. I moved some hides around and now she's spending more time in the warm hide. I added a different day bulb and have seen temps stay between 89.5-92. Got two more thermometers, warm air is between 80-85 and cool around 72. Glad I got that situated. As for the heating pad I'm not so sure if ill need one now as I can get proper temps. But when she moves into her 40 gallon she'll get an upgraded size of course, meaning a brand new UTH. I'll look into the one Elizabeth provided, I'll research it.