Fearing the worst...

[MommyShanna]

I'm new to geckos as well as this forum. I'm hoping to find some help for my son's beloved geckos when there isnt much to be had locally.

A few months ago, my son got two leopard geckos. All was well, and they were gaining weight nicely. On April 27th, I made the mistake of purchasing 2 more from a different pet store. All appeared well for about a week when one stopped eating. After watching it lose weight steadily, I contacted the store, and they admitted they had two sick geckos they had pulled from their display with similar symptoms. It was suggested that they might need more calcium and recommended that I calcium coat every meal. It's very hard to get calcium into a gecko who is refusing meals :-/
After another week went by and the poor thing had only eaten 2 crickets, I took it to the vet. Our local vets aren't big on exotic animals and really didn't have much advice to offer. After the vet helped to get the last of the retained shed off its feet, I was told the gecko was underweight (well no surprise there!) and given carnivore care to poke at it 3-4 times a day. They could not find any parasites in the stool sample. The vet did not think I needed to quarantine the sick gecko, but recommended cleaning everything with bleach. The poor thing does not enjoy the syringe feelings, and I'm barely getting half a feed into its belly a day.
I stopped in at my preferred local pet store this past week asking for advice from their reptile guy about foods that might tempt a sick gecko... After a brief discussion of symptoms, he said it sounded like crypto and told me to google it. Now I'm just scared. There are so many illnesses on the World Wide Web, I don't know what to think! I have isolated the sick one, but I'm sure it was too late to prevent spread of any communicable disease. I also picked up an ammonia based cleaning spray along with meal worms, wax worms, and pellets... I saw evidence of regurgitated wax worm the next morning. 5 mealworms disappeared the next day.
I've continued to offer the carnivore care, but now I have the other newer gecko losing weight and both of the older ones ignored the crickets I put in tonight. One odd thing I've noticed is they all want to lick the water drops off the glass when I spray their moss down. Their tongues look redder than normal... Not sure if that means anything...

If my vet knows nothing, and there is no other vet that even pretends to treat "exotic animals" then what can I do? I'm utterly overwhelmed by possibilities on google. How can I help these little critters?

 

[Completeleopard]

Hello and a warm welcome to GU.

Firstly, many people on here recommend not to take advice from Pet Stores, there has been many bad experiences .

You need to seperate all the Gecko's, they will prefer to be seperated and males will fight, they will know there gender before you .

Any chance of pictures of the Leo's and the enclosure?

What are the temperatures under the warm dry hide on the floor?

I understand things can be overwhelming with Leopard Gecko's, however, you have come to the right place and we will do our best to help you. Try not to panic! (Easier said than done)

 

[MommyShanna]

I've learned the hard way that most local pet stores are NOT giving decent info :-/

I only have thermometers on the back wall of the tank. The cool side ranges mid-70s and the warm side is upper 80s. I have an uth as well as a heat lamp and UVB bulb (forgot to mention the vet insisted that uvb might help the sick one). There is a moist moss filled hide in the middle (off the uth), and a bowl of water at all times. The humidity stays in the 10-20% range

 

[MommyShanna]

I was TOLD that all of them were female, and that they could cohabitate happily... I've since learned that wasn't too reliable. I only have the means to separate the sickest one at the moment because I don't have enough heat sources for the others if I scatter them.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi MommyShanna ~

One caution: Never mix bleach and ammonia! Toxic fumes will result.

May be too late to quarantine. :-(

Be sure you have digital thermometers with probes to measure the temps. Analog (circle) thermometers can be inaccurate.

Recommended temperatures for all leos regardless of size
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Leave the UTH on 24/7. Can turn off overhead heating at night unless the ambient room temperatures are particularly cool during the night.

 

[Completeleopard]

What size enclosure do you have?

I would recommend not using the UVB Bulb, Leo's are nocturnal and instead supplement there insects correctly, they will get D3 that way.

Analogue thermometers are inaccurate, instead its recommended to use digital thermometers with a probe, these a accurate.

The humidity is too low, it needs to be in the 50% range!

Please fill out this questionnaire and provide pictures of your Leo's and the enclosure.


Leopard Gecko Questionnaire

General Information
Species of lizard:
Gecko's name:
Morph:
Gender:
Age:
Weight:
Total length:
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it:
Source (pet store, breeder, wild caught):
Captive bred or wild :

Vivarium
Enclosure dimensions (length x width x heighth):
Cage (type, size):
Substrate provided:
Types of hiding places provided:
Is there a humidity hide? location?
Please describe any other furnishings:
List recent changes in the environment, if any:

Lighting
Artificial lighting
Incandescent (“screw-in” bulbs): wattage(s):
Fluorescent (tube bulbs):
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window:

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage?
What type and brand of thermometer (digital with probe, temperature gun, LCD strip, analog (circle), combo digital thermometer/hygrometer, stainless steel aquarim type, other):
What is the ground temperature right on the substrate under the warm dry hide:
What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground:
What is the air temperature on the cool end about 4 inches up from the ground:
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (Under Tank Heater, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, Flexwatt heat tape, hot rock, other):
Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners):
Are you using a thermostat(s)?
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time?
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much?

Humidity
Is the humidity measured?
Humidity range:

Diet
Insects and worms, list type:
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms:
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with?
How often do you feed your gecko?
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often?
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both?
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without?
Multivitamins (include brand name)?
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet:

General Health
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs:
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased?
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased?
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss gain):
Discharge from the eyes or nose:
Increased breathing rate or effort:
Change in the droppings:
Urates
---white or yellowish:
---size of urates as compared to size of feces:
Abnormal skin color or shedding:
Parasites on the skin or in the feces:
Weakness:

Previous problems and/or illnesses:

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household
List other that are kept in the same cage:
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months):
Are any of your other pets ill?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Here's a reliable Leo Care Sheet:

#81---Leopard Gecko Care Sheet...the abbreviated version
......Leopard Gecko Care......
11 February 2014

To view click Leopard Gecko Setup, not the arrow:
Updates to video
---No supplements in the vivarium at all
---By omitting a background your leo will have more ground space to explore. Some leos will climb a background, but then fall off and could get hurt.

1. ===> URGENT: No plain calcium, calcium with D3, or multivitamins inside a vivarium EVER <===

2. Best to buy stuff individually rather than getting a 10 gallon set up kit.

3. Quarantine Recommendations
Any new gecko should be quarantined for a minimum of 90 days prior to introducing her/him to the other geckos in the same cage. That gives adequate time to check for parasites, cryptosporidia, and the beginnings of coccidia plus. 3-6 months of quarantine are recommended if your new gecko is imported or wild caught.

The quarantine area should be in a separate room apart from your established geckos. Stringent sanitation methods MUST be followed!

4. Never keep 2 males together.

5. Best to keep leos alone. Even 2 females can fight. Leopard geckos do not need companions/"friends".

6. Advise NO particulate substrates (sand, cocopeat fiber, bark chips, et cetera). Risk of impaction simply not worth it. Best: textured ceramic, porcelain, or slate tiles. Paper towels also work. Add paper towel layers to poop spot to facilitate clean up.

7. A temperature gradient from warm to cool is very necessary for maintaining leo health. That is difficult to do within a 10 gallon enclosure. That's why many of us recommend a 30 inch long x 12 inch wide (deep) x 12 inch tall enclosure minimum. That's 76 cm x 31 cm x 31 cm.

Use a digital thermometer probe to measure air temps and ground temperatures. Temperature guns are excellent for measuring surface temperatures. A stainless steel aquarium-type thermometer that has been verified can also be used.

Temperatures for all leos regardless of size:
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Leave the UTH on 24/7. Can turn off overhead heating at night unless the ambient room temperatures are particularly cool during the night.

8. The UTH + the overhead heating both belong on the warm end of the tank. Your leo will be more active if you provide an UTH for belly heat/digestion as well as an overhead dome. Your leo will benefit from a "warm zone", not just a "warm spot".

9. Leopard geckos are crepuscular and nocturnal...active at dawn, at dusk, and at night. A good photoperiod can be achieved by adding a 5.5 inch diameter dome fixture on the center of the screen with a 15 watt bulb. That can be plugged into a timer and varied monthly according to this Pakistan link. 11 hours on is good for February.

Click: Sunrise Sunset Daylight Hours of Pakistan -- Timebie

Place the 5.5 inch photoperiod dome right next to your 10 inch diameter ceramic heat emitter dome.

10. UVB lighting is recommended for leopard geckos ONLY IF there is adequate space and opportunities for the leopard gecko to dodge some of the rays like in a 4.5 foot x 2 foot x 2 foot vivarium. A 48 inch long vivarium is a suggested minimum for using UVB for leopard geckos. Never use UVB lighting in addition to a powdered vitamin D3 supplement!

11. Strongly recommend a thermostat! A thermostat will control your under tank heater, provide your leopard gecko with stable and comfortable temperatures, save $ on electricity, and lessen the chance of a house fire from accidental overheating.

12. 3 hides required per leo: warm DRY, warm MOIST, cool DRY. Keeping the third hide warm and moist 24/7 is very important! Both warm hides should sit on top of the UTH. The warmth from your UTH will help generate the required humidity. Leopard geckos use their warm moist hides for hydration as well as for shedding assist.

13. Too much vitamin D3 is as bad as too little D3. Any multivitamin (Rep-Cal's Herptivite, Exo Terra's (?) multivitamin) which supplies vitamin A in the form of beta carotene is not recommended. Preformed vitamin A acetate is necessary for eye and skin health. Note mod Hilde's posts #22 and #48 right on this thread.

Lightly dust crickets/dubia with Zoo Med's supplements like this:
1. Monday - Repti-Calcium with D3 according to gecko weight on container label
2. Thursday - Repti-Calcium with D3 according to gecko weight on container label
3. PLAIN Reptivite (multivitamin) with A acetate adjusted for your leo's weight: Spread out the lightly dusted Reptivite crickets over the course of a week. Use the Reptivite (multivitamin) very sparingly.

14. Urates should be white, not yellow, and be approximately 1/3 the size of the feces. A healthy feces is dark brown and about the size and shape of 2 tic tacs.

15. Vary the diet: crickets, roaches, grasshoppers, silkworms, hornworms, mealworm pupae, freshly molted mealworms, genuine Phoenix worms, calciworms, and locusts (smallest locusts possible)

16. There are no benefits to feeding waxworms, butterworms, or superworms (pure fat like brie). Hornworms and/or silkworms provide excellent variety. They provide nutrition as well as moisture.

17. Click: Care & Breeding of Feeders: crickets, Blaptica dubia, hornworms, & silkworms

18. Click: USDA Foods link Foods List

19. Diet, DIET, D-I-E-T! A huge factor in the husbandry of any gecko is to feed the feeders (crickets, worms, etc) a very healthy diet 24/7. Variety of feeders is important too. Nutritious feeder bodies transfer like nutrients to your geckos. Consider light supplemental dusting of these feeders as just "icing on the cake".

Remember that, like humans, geckos are what they eat.

20. Consider covering three sides of your leopard gecko's enclosure with something like construction paper to provide additional security and privacy.

21. For live links to the products Tony uses go to post #26. Post #36 is a setup checklist.

22. For the whole story click: Leopard Gecko Caresheet (Eublepharis macularius)...demo video & 4 Jan 2013 update
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[MommyShanna]

Ok, let me start with the questionnaire...

Leopard Gecko Questionnaire

General Information
Species of lizard: leopard gecko
Gecko's name: Allie (first to show symptoms of illness), Pippi, Spot, and Kitty
Morph: no clue
Gender: I was told they are all female
Age: purchased Allie and Pippi on April 27th and Spot and Kitty about 2 months prior
Weight: I do not have a scale and did not think to record the info when Allie was at the vet
Total length:all are about 5inches from nose to tip of tail
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it: they are not much larger than they were at time of purchase
Source (pet store, breeder, wild caught): two different pet stores
Captive bred or wild : assuming captive bred

Vivarium
Enclosure dimensions (length x width x height): currently in 10gal with plans to move to a 20gal. Moving was halted when they started acting sick because vet recommended keeping them more confined so they would have less effort required for hunting.
Cage (type, size): aquarium
Substrate provided: originally using cage carpet but switched to paper towels while aggressively trying to disinfect
Types of hiding places provided: 3 caves
Is there a humidity hide? Location? Yes- warm side of tank under heat lamp and on uth (this is their favorite hide)
Please describe any other furnishings: the middle hide also has an attached water bowl, and I keep a small bowl of water and moss in the corner of the warm side in an effort to increase humidity
List recent changes in the environment, if any: at the vet's recommendation, I switched a second heat lamp to a uvb buld because she insisted that an ill gecko needed one- this has lowered the daytime temp by a good 7-10 degrees

Lighting
Artificial lighting
Incandescent (“screw-in” bulbs): wattage(s):75watt nighttime heat bulb on 24hrs and uvb bulb on 8hrs a day
Fluorescent (tube bulbs):
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window: they are directly across the room from a window with sheer curtains, but it faces away from direct sunlight

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage? yes-2
What type and brand of thermometer (digital with probe, temperature gun, LCD strip, analog (circle), combo digital thermometer/hygrometer, stainless steel aquarim type, other): digital circle thermometer attached on either end of cage and a lose probe thermometer that is used for random checks
What is the ground temperature right on the substrate under the warm dry hide:83 right now
What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground:84
What is the air temperature on the cool end about 4 inches up from the ground:73
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (Under Tank Heater, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, Flexwatt heat tape, hot rock, other): uth and heat lamp
Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners):yes- tank sets on two pieces of tile
Are you using a thermostat(s)? no
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Warm and moist
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much? Not anymore. I used to keep an extra heat lamp on the cage during the day so temps ranged in the 75-88 range during the day and fell to 73-80 at night, but vet insisted I needed to switch to the uvb

Humidity*
Is the humidity measured? yes
Humidity range: 20%

Diet*
Insects and worms, list type: primarily crickets, but since they've been losing appetites, I've also tried meal worms and even wax worms
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms: flukers cricket quencher
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with? 90% of the time
How often do you feed your gecko? daily
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often? Oxbow carnivore care offered at least once a day to sick gecko, rep-cal herptivite every other day, fluker's calcium with d3 daily (had been every other day, but vet said daily)
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both? Fluker's with d3
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without? The only calcium in the tank would have fallen off a cricket
Multivitamins (include brand name)? Rep-cal herptivite
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet: after Allie stared losing weight, the vet made several changes...

General Health
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs:* starting a week after we brought them home (4/27), Allie and Pippi began eating less. Allie became more lethargic and uninterested in food. Much coaxing got 2 crickets in her(?) over the course of a week. Someone in the tank had a couple lose stools that were at least half white. I took Allie to the vet after it was obvious that she was losing weight at an alarming rate (tail pencil thin) and she was shedding very poorly. I also called the pet store, and they admitted they had 2 sick geckos pulled from that tank due to similar symptoms. They suspected a parasite, but were otherwise unhelpful.
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased? Greatly decreased unless spooked, then still quite spunky
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? Decreased to non-existant
Have you noticed any of the following?*
Weight (loss gain): loss
Discharge from the eyes or nose: no
Increased breathing rate or effort: nothing obvious
Change in the droppings: stronger smell, smaller, and looser
Urates*
---white or yellowish: white
---size of urates as compared to size of feces: to start with, there was more urate than feces, but now there is almost none
Abnormal skin color or shedding: Allie had a very difficult shed the last time
Parasites on the skin or in the feces: the vet sent a sample off for a “float test” which was negative
Weakness: yes

Previous problems and/or illnesses:

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household
List other that are kept in the same cage: there are 4 geckos in that 10gal tank (yes, NOW I know that is not OK... I should've learned my lesson on turtles, pet stores NEVER tell the flipping truth)
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): all 4 geckos and a bearded dragon
Are any of your other pets ill? Allie is showing the worst symptoms, but all 3 of the others are showing reduced appetites, and Pippi (from same purchase as Allie) is also losing weight

 

[MommyShanna]

Gecko Cage Photo by MommyShanna | Photobucket
that's their current cage setup

Kitty, Spot, And Pippi Photo by MommyShanna | Photobucket
That's the 3 healthier geckos (Kitty on the ramp, Spot on top, and Pippi hiding in the back)

 

[MommyShanna]

Their current cage setup



A very poor picture of Kitty (on ramp running away from my flash), Spot (on top), and Pippi (hiding in back) inside their warm/moist hide just before I sprayed it today



A sad, sad photo of Allie today


A comparison photo of Allie the day we brought her(?) home on April 27th

 

[MommyShanna]

I attempted to post pictures, but thats all waiting for moderator approval. I really hope you folks can help me save these geckos. I've done red eared sliders for a decade, but I'm totally new to reptiles. The original two geckos were a gift to my son. I want to save them all, and will do everything in my power to make right the mistakes I've made while following bad advice. I promise not to get bent out of shape over criticism- I want to save these poor animals, and I feel like an idiot already for making the newbie mistake of listening to pet store advice after I should've learned my lesson from the turtles!!!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

For starters I'd isolate both April 27th geckos: Allie & Pippi.

Crypto is such a death sentence! :-( Any chance of returning the ill leos? Some stores have return policies. Then you could separate your first 2 and concentrate on them.

Please make sure the recommended temps are achieved. 83 under the warm dry hide is much too cool. Without proper temperatures all leos will be unable to digest their prey.

Re Herptivite: There has been research done on chameleons which suggests they are not able to utilize vitamin A in the form of beta carotene. That's why many of us like Zoo Med's Reptivite multivitamins with or without D3 depending.

Not sure at all why a vet would recommend lightly dusting with vitamin D3 at every feeding. Are you sure???

 

[MommyShanna]

The pet store refuses to take any responsibility for the ill geckos claiming that they come with no warranty. They also admitted that any illness is a death sentence as far as they are concerned because gecko are so hard to treat its not cost effective. I was furious when I got off the phone . I will NEVER spend my money there again.

The vet really didn't seem to know much more than me about geckos. They DID tell me to dust every feed with the calcium, and I had filled out a form very similar to this one detailing what I was using. That particular vitamin was specifically recommended :-/ What is a better option? How often SHOULD I be dusting? Every other day for calcium/d3 and once a week for the multi-vitamin? I will swap the UVB bulb back out with the other heat lamp to get them back up in the 80-90 range on the hot side.

 

[JIMI]

I'm very sorry about your situation. Don't beat yourself up over this. It is obvious that you are really trying your best to save all of your geckos. Unfortunately, many fall victim to the ill advice handed out by pet stores. You've already taken the best course of action, which is to take your geckos to a vet. Yet your vet truly does not seem to know much about reptiles. Wild idea, but could you possibly have tests conducted and discuss the results over the phone with an experienced reptile vet in another location? Maybe you could actually phone an experienced reptile vet to ask for their recommendations and have them work with your vet? What sorts of tests have you had conducted?

 

[Aimless]

honestly, that gecko's in pretty terrible shape. I would very carefully do all the supportive care you can and see if she can put any weight on before worrying about any other treatment. first and foremost, proper temps and hydration are going to be really important for her.

 

[MommyShanna]

For just over 2 weeks, I've been syringe feeding her a couple times a day (as much as she will take), and in the last two days she has eaten 5 mealworms and one wax worm (I've been desperately offering anything I can think of in hopes of stimulating an appetite)

The vet has only run a float test on a fecal sample. I spoke to her today and asked if that really ruled out anything. She agreed to look at a fresh sample under the microscope (would've been great if they did that FIRST) to see if she sees any single cell parasites. They prescribed paraguard, but I can't see that its done anything to help. I am worried that the area I have to quarantine her isn't warm enough. With a lethargic leo, should I worry more about an area to get the temp up, or more space to move? I can't decide if I should put the two newer ones together or keep the sickest one alone.
I've already spent the bulk of my pay this month on sick animals (our rabbit has also required vet care and syringe feeding- rabbit injured its eye, so unrelated aside from cost). I'm feeling so frustrated and at a loss. I think I'm going to make the 10gal with the 3 healthier ones as ideal as I can and then set the sickest one up in the old terrarium where I can at the very least get a heat source both above and below... If I don't have room for 3 separate hides in the terrarium for Allie, would it be OK to have a warm&moist and a cool until she's moving around a little more?
Next month, I will move the 3 healthier ones into a 20gal and get Allie into a 10 all her own... assuming everyone makes it that far...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

The pet store refuses to take any responsibility for the ill geckos claiming that they come with no warranty. They also admitted that any illness is a death sentence as far as they are concerned because gecko are so hard to treat its not cost effective. I was furious when I got off the phone . I will NEVER spend my money there again.

The vet really didn't seem to know much more than me about geckos. They DID tell me to dust every feed with the calcium, and I had filled out a form very similar to this one detailing what I was using. That particular vitamin was specifically recommended :-/ What is a better option? How often SHOULD I be dusting? Every other day for calcium/d3 and once a week for the multi-vitamin? I will swap the UVB bulb back out with the other heat lamp to get them back up in the 80-90 range on the hot side.

For just over 2 weeks, I've been syringe feeding her a couple times a day (as much as she will take), and in the last two days she has eaten 5 mealworms and one wax worm (I've been desperately offering anything I can think of in hopes of stimulating an appetite)

The vet has only run a float test on a fecal sample. I spoke to her today and asked if that really ruled out anything. She agreed to look at a fresh sample under the microscope (would've been great if they did that FIRST) to see if she sees any single cell parasites. They prescribed paraguard, but I can't see that its done anything to help. I am worried that the area I have to quarantine her isn't warm enough. With a lethargic leo, should I worry more about an area to get the temp up, or more space to move? I can't decide if I should put the two newer ones together or keep the sickest one alone.
I've already spent the bulk of my pay this month on sick animals (our rabbit has also required vet care and syringe feeding- rabbit injured its eye, so unrelated aside from cost). I'm feeling so frustrated and at a loss. I think I'm going to make the 10gal with the 3 healthier ones as ideal as I can and then set the sickest one up in the old terrarium where I can at the very least get a heat source both above and below... If I don't have room for 3 separate hides in the terrarium for Allie, would it be OK to have a warm&moist and a cool until she's moving around a little more?
Next month, I will move the 3 healthier ones into a 20gal and get Allie into a 10 all her own... assuming everyone makes it that far...

Hello MommyShanna~

Thanks for all your efforts with the pet store that sold these ill geckos. I am very sorry for the pain and frustration that this experience brings to your family. Geckos are supposed to be fun.

I don't have experience rehabbing leos with potential crypto.

You can use the numbers to facilitate your reply.

Is your vet willing to phone conference/email conference with an experienced reptile vet?

1. :yahoo: for Allie eating 5 mealworms in the last 2 days!! I am impressed.

Any chance you could order some genuine Phoenix worms and very small hornworms online for all of these little guys? Skip the waxworms. No nutrition, only fat.

2. How about checking Craigslist for larger enclosures? Just be sure to disinfect with 10% bleach, off gas. Then very separately with an ammonia scrub.

3. Good switching to paper towels for all. I would replace the paper towels whenever these leos deficate.

4. Oxbow's Carnivore Care is the best assist food out there for leos off food. It is an all-in-one formula. Feel comfortable, at least, about that. Don't worry about vitamins and calcium for any leos on Oxbow.

5. Since Allie & Pippi may have been together longer than they have all 4 been together, that's why I suggest removing them together.

6. Too much calcium is also a bad thing. If you have time, you will be able to find an explanation by mod Hilde in posts #22 and #48 immediately following the Basic Guidelines in the Leo Care Sheet below.

7. Brand of your circle analog? thermometers. They look like "dial" thermometers. Can you compare their readouts with a reliable digital thermometer with a probe? Proper temps are the key to ALL leo husbandry.

8. Within the confines of any 10 gallon enclosure there is not enough room to use UVB. UVB should NOT be combined with supplementation with vitamin D3.

9. Has it been easy for you to get Allie to open her mouth?

10. It is vital for emaciated geckos like Allie to be hydrated first (by a vet or otherwise) prior to feeding. That lessens damage to organs like the kidneys and the liver.

11. Allie may not last much longer. :-( Should she pass away, my vet's office told me quite recently that crypto can be definitively diagnosed via tissue samples taken during a histopathology. That, at least, might confirm crypto so you know what's ahead. I, personally, would rather know something for certain than always worrying about it.

However, that would cost $120 in Portland, Oregon.

Wonder whether there is a nearby veterinary college where students might perform tests like that for less money as part of their education???

12. Post #7 on this thread suggests the Zoo Med supplements I prefer.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

PS:

If you have a moment, you may wish to check out this thread: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...ted-not-eating-please-help-me-help-him-3.html

dynaMOna is having success rehabbing her very emaciated leo by feeding him Phoenix worms. One benefit is that these little worms are very high in calcium.

 

[TheGeckoSanctuary]

So sorry that you going through all this. Have gotten good advice so far especially isolating the new leopard geckos. It may be too late but better late than never.

My suggestion, at this point, would be to test all your geckos for Crypto through Avian Biotech (Avian Services Center: DNA sexing and disease testing for all species of birds.) which is $24.50/test. If you can't afford all four would get at least the one displaying the concerning symptoms. If the test comes back positive the best, and most humane, treatment would be to have her euthanized. Know this can be difficult but right now there is no published cure for Crypto and if a gecko has progressed this far a recovery is almost null.

As a side, bleach does not kill Crypto. To effectively disinfect you need to use ammonia (direct contact for 10 minutes), very, very high heat, and I've heard some people claim F10 also does the trick. Bleach is good for a lot but can't touch Crypto if that gives you an idea how nasty the parasite is.

 

[JIMI]

It's horrible that the pet store would notice symptoms of an illness in their stock, remove those two, and proceed to sell the other geckos kept in the same enclosure. Shouldn't they have at least informed you of this beforehand rather than afterward? Did they inform you that they are not responsible for any illness before your purchase? Is there not some way that you could report them?