From Sand to Carpet

[Superleo98]

I am very OCD about things, like making sure my Leo's are eating on a schedule, spraying the moist hide every day, replacing the water, taking out the feces, and making sure everything is ok physically. I am 80% sure Ava is ovulating, the pink dots are more visible and through all the research I've done. I'll consider the food bowl perhaps when I get Ava eating again. thanks yuk

Cricket4U,
The breeder my father has bought from said he had taken the Leo's to a vet to make sure they were healthy. He had them tested for crypto, and other diseases. The reason my father has made sure of this is because he is very experienced with a lot of species of animals, and makes sure they are in good care and health. I am aware of the risk of them fighting, however that is my choice. If they truly wanted to fight, wouldn't I have seen the signs of aggression/bullying by now? I understand you are giving me your advice and suggestions but I am willing to only except advice that comes with evidence. Say like Yuk, or Elizabeth. I have learned and read a lot of articles from them. I read that a male and female can do well together, and also I've seen where Maiyer or Buki saw the females tail and showed no attention to it what so ever. From what I've been told from others is that a 20 gallon is a good size for two Leo's. Thank you for your suggestions.

 

[Completeleopard]

wouldn't I have seen the signs of aggression/bullying by now? I understand you are giving me your advice and suggestions but I am willing to only except advice that comes with evidence

Superleo ,

You would not necessarily see any signs, since you do not watch the 24/7. There are many signs of dominance/bullying that go undetected by a owner until it is too late.

Please be aware Cricket has a lot of experience.

 

[cricket4u]

If they truly wanted to fight, wouldn't I have seen the signs of aggression/bullying by now?

Not necessarily. Sometimes out of nowhere even years later fights have occurred. I have seen plenty of injured leo because of this. Not my own because I house all my reptiles separately. This is not something someone can give you reassurance on. This is why I believe in prevention.

There is plenty of proof on this forum. If you search through the older threads, you will see injuries.

From what I've been told from others is that a 20 gallon is a good size for two Leo's.

We all learn something new everyday. Some people will have access to more accurate information and it's not until updated information is presented that people realize they have been doing something wrong. Some people may have more experience in housing various ways, therefore are more knowledgeable as to what works best for your leos. It happens all the time and then it becomes a lesson learned.

Thank you for your suggestions.

You're welcome

 

[Superleo98]

I know that cricket4u has experience. I'm also not saying that cricket4u is wrong.

I don't understand how so many people though make assumptions without stating the facts. There are some articles that state leopard geckos are solitary, and some that state they are in colonies. Once I get my book "Leopard geckos: The next generation" I shall go by what it says. There is going to be things we won't agree on. Although I appreciate your help and concern.

Each animal in the world has their own personality's. Each one is going to prefer something over the other. Each animal may be agressive or docile. I truly believe that my pairs of leopard geckos can live together successfully. If they get aggressive, then I will seperate them. Honestly, watching their behaviors has been fascinating. Especially how well they are co existing.

Just an example, my father owns many varieties of large fish, and there has been bullying but soon resolved. however it's amazing how most of the people on the internet state "you can't house this fish with that fish" or "you should feed them this and only this!". Despite this he went on his own knowledge and it's turned out so well. He really gives me good advice on my Leo's.

 

[Yuk]

Yeah, owning fish really gives some perspective. That's why I'm not so quick to follow very precautionary advice without facts to back it up. I've housed multiple cichlids together (firemouths) who are known to be aggressive, and I have had a bad experience with a jack dempsey pair that managed to fight to the death even with a tank separator (the male actually jumped over it to get to the female and kill her). Bullying and fighting are two different things. As long as they are introduced correctly and monitored while they are being introduced, as well as having enough room and private areas available, there is a good chance they will get along. Is that a 100% chance? No. But the risk is low enough to warrant keeping them together, in my opinion.

SuperLeo98, don't let anyone bully you into following someone else's husbandry standards. As long as you have the information available to you, you can make those decisions for yourself based on the evidence you have seen and your gut feeling. It's all about risk and reward and achieving the right balance. Popular opinion and vocal opinions don't necessarily make them right. And when you consider experience, think about what that person has experience with. If you want to house multiple geckos together, find a mentor that also houses them together. I had to sort of change mentors as I have been learning based on the type of husbandry used. My mentor has to be someone who successfully houses multiple geckos together in natural enclosures, for example. Look at the results of their experience, too. I know you probably know all this, but this is for anyone else reading this going through the same thing as you, as well.

 

[cricket4u]

Yuk are you okay? I'm concerned about your mental status seriously. Since when giving sound advice is bullying? I give the advice and it's up to the OP to decide, very simple. These wild animals do not belong in our homes, therefore there's much room for failure.

But the risk is low enough to warrant keeping them together, in my opinion.

I don't think the majority will agree. We are responsible for their well being. Why would most people want to risk injury or health problems due to stress?

This is just a waste of time and energy, so I won't bother to continue.

Best of luck

 

[Yuk]

Your advice can come across that way at times. Minimum enclosure recommendations and warnings against substrate and housing geckos together follow everyone around, no matter what the subject of the thread is about. I could understand if someone was asking about what the minimum should be or whether a certain substrate is ok or housing multiple geckos is okay, but it comes across as bullying people into a preferred standard when they aren't even asking (and especially if you have already said this to that person multiple times). I should count how many times SuperLeo98 has gotten "do not house multiple geckos together" advice. In my opinion that is bullying, since she is completely aware of the risks (since you warned her, yourself) and she keeps getting harassed to change things. Not just her, but plenty of members.

I just feel it should be said once and then they know about it. It feels like an agenda to me to get everyone using 4 foot enclosures for leopard geckos housed separately. There's more than one way to successfully keep a leopard gecko, but you wouldn't know that by all the repeated one-size-fits-all recommendations on unrelated threads.

And I thought that was rude for you to question my mental stability over a disagreement on an internet forum. Everyone gets their own post to state their opinion. Why does it get you so worked up that not everyone agrees?

 

[Superleo98]

Thank you yuk, that's pretty much what I wanted to say but couldn't find the right words. It's nice to find someone who understands.
I'm an observer, and seeing these leopard geckos behaviors fascinates me. Especially with keeping them together. As I have said before, if there is EVER a fight I will immediately seperate.
Cricket4U, someone's opinion/advice has nothing to do with their mental stability. That was rather rude to say. I know you mean well.

 

[cricket4u]

Your advice can come across that way at times. Minimum enclosure recommendations and warnings against substrate and housing geckos together follow everyone around, no matter what the subject of the thread is about. I could understand if someone was asking about what the minimum should be or whether a certain substrate is ok or housing multiple geckos is okay, but it comes across as bullying people into a preferred standard when they aren't even asking (and especially if you have already said this to that person multiple times). I should count how many times SuperLeo98 has gotten "do not house multiple geckos together" advice. In my opinion that is bullying, since she is completely aware of the risks (since you warned her, yourself) and she keeps getting harassed to change things. Not just her, but plenty of members.

I just feel it should be said once and then they know about it. It feels like an agenda to me to get everyone using 4 foot enclosures for leopard geckos housed separately. There's more than one way to successfully keep a leopard gecko, but you wouldn't know that by all the repeated one-size-fits-all recommendations on unrelated threads.

And I thought that was rude for you to question my mental stability over a disagreement on an internet forum. Everyone gets their own post to state their opinion. Why does it get you so worked up that not everyone agrees?

Why does it get you so worked up that not everyone agrees?

What? I made a single post and then you accused me of bullying. Did you forget that fast?

I questioned your state of mind simply because some of the things you say are premature and awkward at times. You give advice and then you tell the OP, I'm not the best to give you advice.

You continued to give the UVB 2.0 advice to people even after I posted a link to the manual stating it's too low to provide UVB for your leos.

but it comes across as bullying people

This sounds like paranoia to me. It has been clear that others understood my motive. I don't know if you are going through a stressful time in your life or what, but perhaps some relaxation exercises may be a good idea.

 

[Superleo98]

Cricket4U
I remember you saying that you no longer wanted to waste your time and energy on this thread....

Whenever I see your posts honestly, my stomach justs drops because I know it's going to be something your not going to agree with. I don't think I've ever seen you say "that looks nice" or "good method". I will agree with yuk that you can come off a bit harsh.
I don't want to sound mean but to assume she's going through a stressful time in her life JUST because she voiced her opinion and outlook is awful.
Others may love her advice(i do) but others like you won't. Others may like your advice, others won't. Please lighten up a bit.

 

[Yuk]

If it was just one post, I wouldn't think what I do. It's been endless and even as a lurker, the tone and sheer volume of posts saying the same thing to the same people (who listened the first time and chose to follow a different path) irked me from the very beginning. It's a lack of tolerance for different ways of doing things. You can go ahead and make this personal. I don't agree with your advice or your manner of giving advice. You are entitled to your opinions as I am entitled to mine. I'm not going to address it anymore. You know how I feel and continuing to repeat it or argue about it isn't going to go anywhere. So that's the last I'll say regarding my feelings about you specifically. I'm still going to call bullying when I see it, give advice, and encourage newer members to stick up for their husbandry style if they did the work to do the research and come to their own conclusions.

Superleo98, I just want to thank you for sticking up for me when you do. I appreciate it.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

Keep this thread friendly and constructive please.
No need to be rude to those giving advice. And no need to be pushy about making people take advice.
In the end we all have to make our own decisions on how we care for our animals.
However, also keep in mind that if you ignore solid advice and something happens, the negative consequences sit squarely on your own shoulders.

Please don't be either of these...

 

[cricket4u]

Superleos quotes,

Ava is active and healthy it's just the eating part.

I did that and she isn't the best hunter...she striked and missed.

Buki and Ava generally don't like to share the dry hide,

Right now my main focus is trying to get Ava to eat.


This is why I gave the advice.

 

[cricket4u]

If it was just one post, I wouldn't think what I do. It's been endless and even as a lurker, the tone and sheer volume of posts saying the same thing to the same people (who listened the first time and chose to follow a different path) irked me from the very beginning. It's a lack of tolerance for different ways of doing things. You can go ahead and make this personal. I don't agree with your advice or your manner of giving advice. You are entitled to your opinions as I am entitled to mine. I'm not going to address it anymore. You know how I feel and continuing to repeat it or argue about it isn't going to go anywhere. So that's the last I'll say regarding my feelings about you specifically. I'm still going to call bullying when I see it, give advice, and encourage newer members to stick up for their husbandry style if they did the work to do the research and come to their own conclusions.

Superleo98, I just want to thank you for sticking up for me when you do. I appreciate it.

and encourage newer members to stick up for their husbandry style if they did the work to do the research and come to their own conclusions.

What a disservice would that be from my part knowing I've tried it and it did not go well. So you want me to lie to people? Encourage them to cause disasters? Many of us have simply tried to prevent others from making the same mistakes. We can't encourage something when we know it will not work. It has nothing to do with style, it's about what functions properly.

 

[cricket4u]

Cricket4U
I remember you saying that you no longer wanted to waste your time and energy on this thread....

Whenever I see your posts honestly, my stomach justs drops because I know it's going to be something your not going to agree with. I don't think I've ever seen you say "that looks nice" or "good method". I will agree with yuk that you can come off a bit harsh.
I don't want to sound mean but to assume she's going through a stressful time in her life JUST because she voiced her opinion and outlook is awful.
Others may love her advice(i do) but others like you won't. Others may like your advice, others won't. Please lighten up a bit.

I remember you saying that you no longer wanted to waste your time and energy on this thread....

You decided to continue and I have the right to defend myself.

There's a huge difference between an opinion and a fact. What bothers me is when someone runs their mouth and they're not telling facts. If I have stated something it's because I lived it, not from another persons mouth.

I don't think I've ever seen you say "that looks nice" or "good method"

I sure have. Have you read through all my 5,000 + posts? I'm not easily pleased and I'm not a hypocrite so I will not state I like something unless I really do. I wouldn't want anyone to lie to me.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

The drama needs to stop here. If you all can't be constructive and get along like adults, I'll simply lock the thread and give everyone infractions. You don't have to kiss and make up, but you do need to take your drama elsewhere because I don't feel like dealing with it.

 

[Aimless]

Please keep threads ON TOPIC.

and please also don't engage in personal attacks (and yes, I would consider publicly questioning another poster's mental health to be an attack). that is the sort of thing that should be discussed via PM or not at all.