help with gecko that can't shed

[ChaoFan]

Hello All,
i got this little fella 3 weeks ago. i acquired some geckos and the breeder was going to "get rid" of this one due to its shedding problem. Could not resist, i just told him to give him to me.

Since that day, he still could not shed. the pictures are from today, last week i managed to remove the old skin from nose and eyes, as he could not see anything. However, that's all i have been able to do, i am giving him warm bath, 15-20 minutes everyday since around 10 days and i am keeping his enclosure extra humid (water bowl always full on "dry side", wet paper towel on the other side.
His old skin is still stuck on the new one, it looks quite thick and it gets dry and stiff if humidity drops, so as said i am keeping him at high humidity at all times.
I am not filling in the questionnaire with all enclosure's conditions, i exclude they are the cause as this is how i got him, i just give some few info:

- he is eating by himself, however some days i have to cut off mealworms rear end to let him be interested in food.
- he is a tangerine enigma, any chance the enigma gene could cause this as well, besides other known enigma issues (he is showing them all)?
- he is 7g now, i got him at 5g, so, slowly, but he is putting up weight.

i have no idea how to help him out, hope someone can support me. i looked up in the forum for similar issues, but could find only threads on locally retained sheds, ...

thanks and please let me know if i missed out any important information.

Michele

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

View attachment 32528View attachment 32529

Hello All,
i got this little fella 3 weeks ago. i acquired some geckos and the breeder was going to "get rid" of this one due to its shedding problem. Could not resist, i just told him to give him to me.

Since that day, he still could not shed. the pictures are from today, last week i managed to remove the old skin from nose and eyes, as he could not see anything. However, that's all i have been able to do, i am giving him warm bath, 15-20 minutes everyday since around 10 days and i am keeping his enclosure extra humid (water bowl always full on "dry side", wet paper towel on the other side.
His old skin is still stuck on the new one, it looks quite thick and it gets dry and stiff if humidity drops, so as said i am keeping him at high humidity at all times.
I am not filling in the questionnaire with all enclosure's conditions, i exclude they are the cause as this is how i got him, i just give some few info:

- he is eating by himself, however some days i have to cut off mealworms rear end to let him be interested in food.
- he is a tangerine enigma, any chance the enigma gene could cause this as well, besides other known enigma issues (he is showing them all)?
- he is 7g now, i got him at 5g, so, slowly, but he is putting up weight.

i have no idea how to help him out, hope someone can support me. i looked up in the forum for similar issues, but could find only threads on locally retained sheds, ...

thanks and please let me know if i missed out any important information.

Michele

Hello Michele ~

Many things can cause shedding difficulties. That's why we ask that you complete GU's Health Questionnaire. Doing that is a huge plus and helps us not to overlook things. It is far easier than putting all that info in paragraph form. Please understand that all of us only have so much time.

Shedding difficulties can be caused by
No multivitamins. Geckos need a wee bit of vitamin A
No warm moist hide 24/7
Humidity levels in enclosure
Less-than-adequate diet for bugs and worms and for leo
Special sensitivity of this particular leo

Try adding a second water bowl on the warm end.

 

[ChaoFan]

Hello Elizabeth,
thanks for the quick reply. i fully understand and i filled in the questionnaire below.
my point was that when i got him 3 weeks ago he already had this issue (the breeder was going to get rid of him as nobody would have bought it, he just gave it to me), so the conditions in which he is kept now may be wrong (and will correct them in case) but should not be the cause of the little guy's issue. So, i thought it could have been a condition known to affect leopard geckos, not something depending on the environment, food,...

Thanks!

General Information
Morph:Tangerine Enigma
Gender: Unsexed (temperature defined male)
Age: 2 months
Weight:7 g
Total length: 12cm (with tail)
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it: same as above
Source (pet store, breeder, previous owner): breeder
Captive bred or wild caught: CB

Vivarium
Enclosure dimensions (length x width x height): 30 X 15 X 15 (cm)
Substrate provided: newspaper + paper towel
Types of hiding places provided: 1 cold dry, 1 warm dry, 1 warm moist
Is there a humidity hide? location? as above
List recent changes in the environment, if any: i got it from the breeder 3 weeks ago

Lighting
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage? yes
What is the ground temperature right on the substrate under the warm dry hide: ~30-31 C
What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground: not measured
What is the air temperature on the cool end about 4 inches up from the ground: ~26 C
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (Under Tank Heater, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, Flexwatt heat tape, hot rock, other): UTH
Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners): yes
Are you using a thermostat(s)? Yes
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? warm moist, but spends a lot of time on top of it after dusk
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much? down to 26 C, in summer heating works 12 hours

Humidity
Is the humidity measured? yes
Humidity range: 60-70 % (i'm keeping it high now to not have him dehydrated)

Diet
Insects and worms, list type: mealworms, dubia roaches
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms: oat
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with? apples, carrots, potato, green leaf vegetables
How often do you feed your gecko? daily
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often?
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both? Zoomed Repti Calcium without D3 given every other feeding, dusting
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without? No Calcium in the tank
Multivitamins (include brand name)? Zoomed reptivite with D3: once a week

General Health
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs:
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased? normal
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? stable but not high
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss or gain): gain 2 g since i got him 3 weeks ago
Discharge from the eyes or nose:can't say, the unshed skin makes it difficult
Increased breathing rate or effort:no
Change in the droppings: no
Urates
---white or yellowish:white
---size of urates as compared to size of feces:1/3 - 1/4
Abnormal skin color or shedding: see original thread and pictures
Parasites on the skin or in the feces: no
Weakness:no, shows symptoms of enigma gene, thus is difficult to distinguish other problems.

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household
List other animals that are kept in the same cage: none
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): yes
Are any of your other pets ill?no

 

[ChaoFan]

Sorry, had to add something i noticed only this morning, his eyes are yellow-orangish. not sure if its relevant to this case or linked to his genetics.. and they look wet, but not sure if it's due to the high humidity i'm keeping him at. thanks!

 

[Conched]

Instead of soaking him for short intervals, try upgrading his moist hide. Since he is small you can modify the instructions below and use a smaller container. It's hard to say exactly what is casing the problem without knowing the full history of the animal.

1. I use 45 oz Country Crock containers; the 16 oz are too small. The lid has a 6 inch diameter. The 45 oz size allows a fully grown Leo to fit inside comfortably.
2. Cut an entry hole about 2.5 inches above the container's base.
3. Add 2 inches of sphagnum moss to that hide.
4. Keep moss or paper towels damp 24/7.
5. Use the lid of the container as the ceiling.
6. Locate the moist hide on the warm end of the enclosure.
7. Warm moist hides 24/7 help leopard geckos stay hydrated so that they shed completely by themselves. Even when not shedding you will find your leo inside.

 

[ChaoFan]

Hi Matt,
thanks! i actually turned the whole enclosure into a humid hide (over 70% average) and after one week it starts to work, he is very slowly starting to lose some small pieces of old skin and keeps eating and behave normally.
Hopefully i am going into the right direction.

one question, in your experience is this going to happen at every shed or it's going to get easier for him?

thanks again,
Michele

 

[Conched]

Hi Matt,
thanks! i actually turned the whole enclosure into a humid hide (over 70% average) and after one week it starts to work, he is very slowly starting to lose some small pieces of old skin and keeps eating and behave normally.
Hopefully i am going into the right direction.

one question, in your experience is this going to happen at every shed or it's going to get easier for him?

thanks again,
Michele

Michele - It depends on what the cause of the shedding problem is as to if the problem will continue. I am not sure I would recommend keeping the overall enclosure humidity that high nor keeping him on a damp substrate 24/7. Keep a close eye on him and make sure you do not see any types of skin rot, infections etc.. Reptiles can get respiratory infections when kept at very high humidity levels for too long. Keep an open eye for gasping or mucus discharge from the nose and mouth. Try providing the humid hide as described above and if he uses it that that would be a big win and would be a better long term solution.

What makes the humid hide as described above really work well is the moss. The moisture in the moss tends to dry out from the top to bottom, so the leo sits on the top dry moss but the damp moss on the bottom is what drives up the humidity level in the moist hide. You simply add water to the moss once a week.

A few things that could cause the issues your leo is having are:

1. Burn - possibly caused by extended exposure to a very hot heat source
2. Parasites - take a pic of the next poop and post it, it is typically fairly evident if there are internal parasites. External parasites can also cause shedding issues but you would be able to see them.
3. Skin infection
4. Lack of a moist hide(from previous keeper)
5. It might just have been one really bad shed.

It is great to hear you are making progress and assuming there are no complications he should continue to improve his sheds.

Keep up the good work and post some progress pics !!

 

[ChaoFan]

Thanks again Matt,
i just cleaned the enclosure before reading the post, so you will get your poop later or tomorrow
i checked previous ones and could not see sign of parasite, but i will post a pic.
among the possible causes above, i can exclude only 4, the breeder was keeping dozens of animals in same conditions and only this one had troubles. he is a careful guy, so i hope i can exclude 1, but who knows.
i definitely hope it's 5!
i am leaving him one more day in this high humidity enclosure, as i saw some more little progress after coming back from work today, then i will set it as other leos i have, with moss humid hide.

will come back with pictures,
Michele

 

[ChaoFan]

ahi, i could not get a clear poop picture, with phone is not possible and i borrowed my camera to a friend. however, i'm not a vet, but it does not look like infested, i checked some ref picture in internet.

i tried to post here some progress pictures taken few hours ago, i tried anything but still could not get them uploaded, i gave up. it's not the first time i do it and follow exactly same steps as before. anything to do with the server relocation?

i wanted to show that skin is slowly and locally coming off, but definitely nothing to do with a normal shed and still way to go.
should i rub him with paper or towel? maybe it helps peeling off the rest of the skin but i am afraid it would stress him out too much.

today i brought him back to a 'standard' enclosure

Thanks,
Michele

 

[Conched]

What are you using for a moist hide ? Try to be specific

 

[ChaoFan]

What are you using for a moist hide ? Try to be specific

very similar to what you described, i just mix a bit of vermiculite to the moss

 

[ChaoFan]

i finally managed to upload the pictures. So, these 3 above are showing the status 1 week ago. afterwards, he has been put back in standard enclosure and spent all his time in the warm humid hide. But still, no sign of progress in shedding.

today i gave up, took a warm towel an in some 20 minutes i removed all (i think) the shed. he is not hurt, but for sure he did not like the process (my fingers did not either, he has good teeth...).

hope i did not cause too much distress, i felt it was the right thing to do after more than one month with no progress. i will now monitor appetite and wait to see what happens at the next shed.
here a picture of the actually very beautiful little boy after scrubbing...



any another suggestion?

thanks,
Michele

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi Michele ~

I checked out the 4 pics you shared. Your little leo has come a long ways!

1. How about a head profile shot to see whether his jaws line up?
2. How does his mouth look?
3. I would ditch the newspaper because the ink can rub off. Use paper towels. Perhaps you can get unbleached paper towels that are sandy colored. Porcelain, ceramic, and slate tiles make good sustrates.
4. Analog thermometers can be off. How about verifying the readings of yours with a digital thermometer with a probe?
5. Are you dusting lightly or heavily with the Repti Calcium without D3 and the Reptivite with D3?
6. Consider feeding a good dry diet 24/7 to your bugs and worms. Then add collard greens once in awhile. The better the diet your feeders get, the less you will need to depend upon multivitamins like Reptivite.
7. Dietary vitamin A is important.

I use Repti Calcium with D3 and plain Reptivite. My vet only recommends a tiny pinch of Reptivite 1x per week. I use Repti Calcium with D3 more frequently.

Here is a suggestion: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-feeding-issues/68574-cricket-guidelines.html

 

[ChaoFan]

Hi Elizabeth,
as usual and in advance, a big thank you for the time you put in supporting us!

Here my answers below.

I checked out the 4 pics you shared. Your little leo has come a long ways!
yes, even though only after my intervention, i think he would still have all his shed stuck on him...


1. How about a head profile shot to see whether his jaws line up? 2. How does his mouth look?
i prefer to leave him alone now after yesterday's treatment, however i can tell you something. you may check the second picture i linked to the post opening this thread. you can see his lower lip is like turned a bit inside out, showing a pink area. after i removed some shed the first time from the eyes and partially from the head, i did not see this again. it may have been just the old skin pulling outward the lip. the jaws are aligned, i will take a picture after a couple of days

3. I would ditch the newspaper because the ink can rub off. Use paper towels. Perhaps you can get unbleached paper towels that are sandy colored. Porcelain, ceramic, and slate tiles make good substrates.
I am using newspaper from more than one year ago, ink should be well dry by now

4. Analog thermometers can be off. How about verifying the readings of yours with a digital thermometer with a probe?
I do use digital thermometers and for the warm ground temp i use a thermostat with probe. what you see in the picture is just used to double check the digital one (or better to check the analog) and to see humidity (for that i do not have digital tools

5. Are you dusting lightly or heavily with the Repti Calcium without D3 and the Reptivite with D3?
definitely lightly. i actually use this combination just because they messed up my last order, where i asked actually Repti Ca with D3 and Reptivite without.... but i am very careful and will correct this at the next order, will make life much easier...


6. Consider feeding a good dry diet 24/7 to your bugs and worms. Then add collard greens once in awhile. The better the diet your feeders get, the less you will need to depend upon multivitamins like Reptivite.
I do have mealworms 24/7 on oats, plus i sometime add a dry feeder for crickets and very seldom (less than once a month) i throw in some dry dog food. Roaches are 24/7 on this dry cricket feeder, plus same fruits and veggies as mealworms.

7. Dietary vitamin A is important.
i give once a week to my feeders carrots and/or pumpkin

i was thinking, should i try some shedding aid like Zoomed's? i tried it on one of my snakes in the past, it worked wonderful and i only had to use it once for a bad shed that remained an isolated case. do you have some reference in using it on leos?

Thanks!
Michele

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi Elizabeth,
as usual and in advance, a big thank you for the time you put in supporting us!

You are welcome, Michele.

Here my answers below.

I checked out the 4 pics you shared. Your little leo has come a long ways!
yes, even though only after my intervention, i think he would still have all his shed stuck on him...

Maybe the breeder let some layers of stuck shed build up?


1. How about a head profile shot to see whether his jaws line up? 2. How does his mouth look?
i prefer to leave him alone now after yesterday's treatment, however i can tell you something. you may check the second picture i linked to the post opening this thread. you can see his lower lip is like turned a bit inside out, showing a pink area. after i removed some shed the first time from the eyes and partially from the head, i did not see this again. it may have been just the old skin pulling outward the lip. the jaws are aligned, i will take a picture after a couple of days

Good to hear that the jaws are aligned. I will check back to the second picture. I noticed something maybe amiss with his mouth/jaws in your group of 4 pictures in post #12.

****Maybe when you post the new pictures they will show up right away and not have to be clicked on. If you follow this link, that should happen: vBulletin FAQ****

3. I would ditch the newspaper because the ink can rub off. Use paper towels. Perhaps you can get unbleached paper towels that are sandy colored. Porcelain, ceramic, and slate tiles make good substrates.
I am using newspaper from more than one year ago, ink should be well dry by now

When we read newspapers here in the USA, the ink is dry. ;-) No matter, this ink still rubs off onto our hands. The ink might have toxins??? Just safer to use paper towels (or unbleached paper towels if you can get them).

4. Analog thermometers can be off. How about verifying the readings of yours with a digital thermometer with a probe?
I do use digital thermometers and for the warm ground temp i use a thermostat with probe. what you see in the picture is just used to double check the digital one (or better to check the analog) and to see humidity (for that i do not have digital tools

Good!

What if your thermostat settings are a bit off? Does your digital thermometer have a probe? I tape the probe from my digital to the probe from my thermostat to confirm the thermostat's readouts. I leave both probes under the warm dry hide 24/7. Both probes usually read about the same...within several 0.1s of a degree Fahrenheit.

5. Are you dusting lightly or heavily with the Repti Calcium without D3 and the Reptivite with D3?
definitely lightly. i actually use this combination just because they messed up my last order, where i asked actually Repti Ca with D3 and Reptivite without.... but i am very careful and will correct this at the next order, will make life much easier...

Light dusting = good. Yes, I too prefer the Reptivite multivitamin with NO D3 and the Repti Calcium with D3.


6. Consider feeding a good dry diet 24/7 to your bugs and worms. Then add collard greens once in awhile. The better the diet your feeders get, the less you will need to depend upon multivitamins like Reptivite.
I do have mealworms 24/7 on oats, plus i sometime add a dry feeder for crickets and very seldom (less than once a month) i throw in some dry dog food. Roaches are 24/7 on this dry cricket feeder, plus same fruits and veggies as mealworms.

Which dry cricket feeder are you using?

Check out the US Dept Agriculture link near the top of the Cricket Guidelines. Click right here for oats: Show Foods Notice oats very low calcium to much higher phosphorus. Not good. Most bugs/worms are way overbalanced with phosphorus. Dry or wet dog, cat, kitten, puppy food has a poor balance of ingredients for geckos. :-(

Can you get an All Purpose Poultry Feed where you live? The formulation I use seems pretty good. The generic name of Albers All Purpose Poultry Feed might be Purina Crumbles? Other GU members have had success using Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food for both crickets and mealworms.

Click: Zoo Med? Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food | Food

Adding greens like collards and dandelion flowers/greens is good as long as they have not been sprayed with pesticides.

7. Dietary vitamin A is important.
i give once a week to my feeders carrots and/or pumpkin

Play around with the USDA food link in the Cricket Guidelines. Carrots and pumpkin are very high in vitamin A. Geckos only seem to need a very small amount of vitamin A acetate.

i was thinking, should i try some shedding aid like Zoomed's? i tried it on one of my snakes in the past, it worked wonderful and i only had to use it once for a bad shed that remained an isolated case. do you have some reference in using it on leos?

I have no experience using any product like Shed Aid. Best to correct the source of the poor shed.

Thanks!
Michele

You are welcome.

When you reply, let's start a new numbered list. OK?

 

[ChaoFan]

Hello,
1) pictures first (sorry, still need to click, i am following same way as i always done, but not pictures are not shown in line).
well, at a closer look jaws may be not aligned as they are not closing completely in the middle if looked from the side. i was looking before for misalignments in the other directions (left-right if looking at his eyes).
in the pic of his back you can also see that there's still a partial layer of skin on it, i could see it only after he dried out. but i am positive i scrubbed skin from all parts of his body, so your theory of a first bad shed not taken care of resulting in layers accumulating on each other could fit.

4) yep, i did use this method (probe to double check the thermostat), it never showed deviation higher than 0.5 C (sorry, Italian metrics ) for a couple of months testing. i don't have it anymore, but it's the same thermostat i am using now.

6) yep, i should be able to find poultry feed in China, but for the moment i will switch to Zoomed's pellets you mentioned, i still have an unopened jar from when i had a couple of beardies.


Thanks,
Michele

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

View attachment 32571View attachment 32572View attachment 32573

Hello,
1) pictures first (sorry, still need to click, i am following same way as i always done, but not pictures are not shown in line).
well, at a closer look jaws may be not aligned as they are not closing completely in the middle if looked from the side. i was looking before for misalignments in the other directions (left-right if looking at his eyes).
in the pic of his back you can also see that there's still a partial layer of skin on it, i could see it only after he dried out. but i am positive i scrubbed skin from all parts of his body, so your theory of a first bad shed not taken care of resulting in layers accumulating on each other could fit.

4) yep, i did use this method (probe to double check the thermostat), it never showed deviation higher than 0.5 C (sorry, Italian metrics ) for a couple of months testing. i don't have it anymore, but it's the same thermostat i am using now.

6) yep, i should be able to find poultry feed in China, but for the moment i will switch to Zoomed's pellets you mentioned, i still have an unopened jar from when i had a couple of beardies.

Thanks,
Michele

Very good on the Poultry Feed! I figured somewhere like China was your home. ;-) That newspaper certainly did not look very Italian.

Are the Zoo Med pellets you have the ADULT formula? The juvenile formula is different. I do not recommend the juvenile formula.

PS: Picture #10 still seems to show unshed skin????

 

[ChaoFan]

m

Very good on the Poultry Feed! I figured somewhere like China was your home. ;-) That newspaper certainly did not look very Italian.

Are the Zoo Med pellets you have the ADULT formula? The juvenile formula is different. I do not recommend the juvenile formula.

PS: Picture #10 still seems to show unshed skin????

Eh eh, yes, China is my secon home now

D'oh! I have the juvenile one, I will then go for the poultry, zoomed pellets are priced like gold around here.

Yes, picture 10 is what I described above about the various layers of sheds. I will go on trying to remove this one as well later today. On the other 2 pics, do you see any problem with mouth and/or eyes? Sorry for poor quality, I was rushing to office..

Thanks,
Michele

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

m

Eh eh, yes, China is my secon home now

D'oh! I have the juvenile one, I will then go for the poultry, zoomed pellets are priced like gold around here.

Yes, picture 10 is what I described above about the various layers of sheds. I will go on trying to remove this one as well later today. On the other 2 pics, do you see any problem with mouth and/or eyes? Sorry for poor quality, I was rushing to office..

Thanks,
Michele

Hi Michele ~

Here's the juvie beardie food: Natural Bearded Dragon Food Juvenile Formula

The Guaranteed Analysis on the Adult formula is better for geckos, I think, less protein for instance.

Just be very gentle removing the remaining shed. How about wrapping him in a slightly warm wet towel for awhile before you begin? Another possibility is leaving him in a well ventilated "hydration chamber" for several hours before you start.

My poultry feed contains some vitamin A acetate...one important ingredient.

I'm not experienced enough and the pictures are not all that good to see whether there are any problems with his eyes. How is his hunting?

About his mouth, well it does not look quite "normal". His lips do not seem to touch. Maybe that will improve with subsequent sheds? How does the inside of his mouth look?

You say his breeder had given up on him. :-(

:yahoo: for you!

 

[ChaoFan]

Hello Elizabeth,
about his hunting / eyes situation, a bit difficult to judge due to the enigma gene. also, he never had a big appetite, max 2-3 mealworms / small dubia per day and to be sure he is eating i am giving him food with tweezers, he more or less easily accepts 2-3 items, then completely refuses.

About his mouth, during the last spa treatment i gave him, i got several bites and noticed some black spots inside the mouth, or at least much darker than the surrounding pink. no clue if this is relevant or not and i am not sure i could take a clear picture of that.

yes, as done previously, i will leave him for 1 hour in warm water, in close but ventilated container before removing with wet warm towel the remaining skin. let's see...

Thanks!
Michele