What Would You Do? How Would You React?

[Nynecho]

Alright, so a friend of mine recently bought a new leopard gecko from what he originally said was a local breeder.

The gecko was sold to him as a male blizzard, approximately 1.5 years old. He appears healthy, is eating, and adapting well to his new home, however...

This friend of mine was concerned about some unusual behavior he was exhibiting. He sent me a video of such behavior, and the answer was simple to me, since I've been doing this a bit longer than him.

It was enigma syndrome. He was spinning in circles. He's a blizzard, so almost no pattern change was showing because he is leucistic, but I could see the half-moon mark on his head that some enigmas have.

He was confused because he didn't buy it as enigma, and sent more videos to double check. The second video was of him hunting, and believe me, after that I had no doubt. Poor thing would launch himself at the worm and miss by a mile, then fall on his face.

So I told him i was 100% sure it has enigma syndrome, then asked a bit about the 'breeder'.

I asked what his parents were, he didn't own them. I asked how he obtained the gecko, and apparently the fool had bought 18 leopard geckos from the person who bred them because she was dying of cancer, and he had never owned a leopard gecko before. He bought a bunch of geckos off a dying girl to make a quick buck... I am ashamed of these people. Anyway, so I advised my friend to never buy from that guy again, because he seemed like a scam artist.

So my question is, how would you feel if you bought an animal with intentions of breeding it, but then discovered it had a hereditary mental illness, and was not as healthy as you thought?

I would've been upset because I was lied to, but then excited I got a better morph for the money I spent on it, but that's because I don't mind breeding male enigmas.
My friend was very disappointed, because he does not wish to breed enigmas and has never owned one before. I did encourage him to give it a shot because he's not too concerned with genetics, but he doesn't want to breed him for very long.

Keep in mind, returning the animal is not a possibility, as the seller is clearly incompetent and doing so would be endangering the animal.

 

[Conched]

I would not encourage him to breed the animal. Your friend should keep it as a pet for a year or two before he thinks about breeding anyway since he is new to Leo's.

If he really does not want the Leo I am sure somebody will adopt it. They seem to get picked up off of Craig's List rather quickly, assuming it is healthy.

Lastly, your friend should be concerned about genetics, it's the lack of concern that puts enigmas in the market in the first place.

Best of luck to you and your friend.

 

[InfinityEleven]

Erm...neither you nor he should breed from this gecko, or any other with Enigma syndrome.

You've just clearly laid out how poor the gecko's life will be compared to other Leos - it won't be able to hunt well, it'll fall over a lot, and it's likely to suffer mentally. Breeding from him will only spread the syndrome, and further corrupt the Leo genetic pool.

Only your friend can decide if he cares enough, and has enough time and understanding, to look after this leo properly. It's a big commitment, and if he wanted a healthy "starter" gecko to get to know the species through, he hasn't got that. There are a few reptile charities near me that take Enigmas with the condition, so he may be able to find somewhere experienced like that if he doesn't want to look after the gecko.

It might be worth speaking to him about how to identify a good breeder, though.

 

[Nynecho]

He's not that new, and doesn't need a "starter gecko". I don't breed enigmas, and he wasn't really wanting to breed them either, but he needs experience with them. I wasn't asking for any advice or for anyone to tell me or him what to do, I was just asking what you would do or how you would feel about being betrayed like that.
Obviously I see you both have strong opinions on breeding enigmas among other things... but that's not really what i asked for....

I'm not saying he's wanting to get rid of the gecko, and I don't recall saying I was planning on breeding it or that I have anything to do with it other than providing my opinion on how I would've felt about it. I honestly don't appreciate those responses. They sound judging and I wasn't asking for that.

Please consider what people are even asking for before handing them a piece of your mind, that can be portrayed as kind of rude. I know what I'm doing here, and I was hoping you would understand that.

I'm not very fond of this forum because of the overpowering opinions on specific details of leo care, but I figured if I just posted about something unrelated to care I wouldn't get any of that. I guess this would've done better had I posted in general discussion.

 

[Conched]

He's not that new, and doesn't need a "starter gecko". I don't breed enigmas, and he wasn't really wanting to breed them either, but he needs experience with them. I wasn't asking for any advice or for anyone to tell me or him what to do, I was just asking what you would do or how you would feel about being betrayed like that.
Obviously I see you both have strong opinions on breeding enigmas among other things... but that's not really what i asked for....

I'm not saying he's wanting to get rid of the gecko, and I don't recall saying I was planning on breeding it or that I have anything to do with it other than providing my opinion on how I would've felt about it. I honestly don't appreciate those responses. They sound judging and I wasn't asking for that.

Please consider what people are even asking for before handing them a piece of your mind, that can be portrayed as kind of rude. I know what I'm doing here, and I was hoping you would understand that.

I'm not very fond of this forum because of the overpowering opinions on specific details of leo care, but I figured if I just posted about something unrelated to care I wouldn't get any of that. I guess this would've done better had I posted in general discussion.

Based on your comments you were looking for some dialogue and you received dialogue. I do not see anything mean or harsh in either of the two responses you have received.

There is a sub forum for ethics. Perhaps you should try posting this issue there.

You are 100% correct, I did not address your specific question.

To answer your specific question, I would be very upset if I purchased a leopard gecko with enigma syndrome and was not aware of it. Furthermore, if I purchased the animal with the intentions of breeding it and determined there was some genetic disorder I would not breed the animal as that was not my original intention.

When you purchase an animal for the intention of breeding for a specific reason than one should consider purchasing from a reputable breeder or at least from somebody that can validate they purchased their animals from a reputable breeder.

Your friend did a poor job researching the purchase of the breeding stock and now must deal with the unfortunate consequences.

Regrettably , it can be very difficult to determine the tone of somebody based on an email/post. Being direct or to the point can often appear as being short or rude.

Best of luck to you and your friend.

 

[Nynecho]

Thank you, that was more of what I was looking for!

I wasn't aware there was an ethics board, maybe I'll visit it sometime.

Yeah, I agree he made a poor choice when buying from someone off of craigslist who didn't know anything about the animals, but he is in Canada and doesn't have access to many breeders without paying international shipping, not to mention he doesn't have job, so he can't spend an arm and a leg to buy from top notch breeders.
I've talked to him about future purchases, and he's decided to cross the border to get affordable shipping and will then drive back over to Canada with his animals. Sounds like lot of effort, but if it saves him money then why not.

Lately it's been very difficult to find reputable breeders, there have been a lot of scandals in the community and some of my friends have been experiencing breeders lying about the genetics of the animals they sell. Another friend of mine from the east coast bought a couple geckos from different breeders, one as a bell hybino and the other as a jungle raptor, and he bred them before doing research about albinos, but still managed to pop out a bell albino 0.0 So we're guessing the raptor, who he got from a breeder everyone thinks is really good and trustworthy, was het for bell albino. Now he's got a whole breeding group with uncertain genes that he's got to spend next season testing out.

I'm going to stick to breeding animals I buy from my friend Miguel who's been working with VMSHerp and Kangas Kritters lines for like 6 years. I trust there will be no mix ups since he only works with tremper albino.