leo hasn't eaten in a while..

[Kagisnad Malchure]

it's been a few months that my leo hasn't eaten almost at all, just a few mealies. i'm out of ideas on what to do and she has started losing weight. i've had her for over a year.

temperatures were always within normals, except this july when they were a bit higher but now they're as they always had
impaction is unlikely because she doesn't have what to get impacted with, i use paper towels. to make sure though i did the warm bath and massage method and it didn't work. she does poop when she does eat.
she has a large enough tank, with two warm hides and one cold.
a water dish filled daily and a food dish she never touches.
she has a calcium dish too that i used to put very little in periodically so she can't OD but i've stopped filling it since she stopped eating.
i ran out of mealworms meanwhile and the breeder i buy from switched to supers recently and didn't have mealies anymore so i got some supers but she's showed no interest.
they are thinner than the space between her eyes and she is over one year old so they shouldn't be too much. i tried offering them at night and at day too, but she doesn't chase them.
she looks fatigued and isn't very active, usually sleeping or keeping her eyes closed.
i haven't been handling her to avoid stress.

i am looking for a vet [not many reptile vets around] but until i get her to one i want to try my best to get her eating again
i noticed that the worms don't squirm too much, what could i do to get them to do it?

what could i do OTHER than the vet visit which i want to do, and getting more variety, which i can't do at the moment because my breeder doesn't have them?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi ~

Click: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...68527-helping-your-sick-gecko-read-first.html

Can you update the Health Questionnaire you completed in Jan 2014 and paste in onto this thread?

To be totally safe, I'd remove any calcium or vitamins from the tank.

Night is the best time to feed leopard geckos.

Can you find mealworms somewhere else? How about crickets or other bugs?

Another GU member who was having "not eating" difficulties switched the leopard gecko's diet from superworms to mealworms. This leo is eating now. So a variety of feeders CAN work.

Feeders can be ordered online or possibly picked up at a reptile show. Not sure whether you have access to those.

#66---Leo Not Eating? Troubleshoot these causes......cricket4u (July & Nov 2013)
"Leos are very greedy and normally eat right away if everything is set up properly. However, I know there are exceptions. Try switching the hides. (The Exo-Terra hide is more secure and may be the reason. If he's not utilizing the heat, chances are he may not eat.) If that does not work, lower the temp as Elizabeth suggested. You may want to cover the sides of the glass so that he will feel more secure."

"Improper temps---air temps too hot or too cold
Improper humidity---too dry is most common
Stress---too much handling---lack of hides or not enough---cagemate bullying, cage too small, et cetera......
Repetitious Diet---variety is important
Spoiled food---upset stomach or simply a bad experience (common with superworms)
Food offered at the wrong time of day---lights on
Wrong size prey---too big or too small
Improper photoperiod
Prey not recognized---leo needs moving prey to elicit feeding response
Malfunctioning heating equipment---goes unnoticed---should be checked daily
UTH is too warm---unregulated---gecko avoids the warm spot, therefore will not eat (need thermostat)
Most common of all CHEAP thermometers => false temp readings
Too much calcium causing constipation and/or loss of appetite

Parasites
Infection
Metabolic---calcium or vitamin deficiency
Impaction
Dehydration
Pain from an injury or otherwise"

 

[Kagisnad Malchure]

there is no vitamins or calcium, as i said, i haven't refilled it since he stopped eating.
i don't feed him by dropping the food in, as i said he has a food dish i leave his food in, that i usually refresh before i go to bed.
i will ask the breeder if he knows another place for mealworms or other feeders. but as i said, he stopped eating while he was offered mealworms.
there are no reptile shows or nearby online stores, i'm from romania. herping isn't big here, hence why i am only in contact with one breeder.

i've lowered the tempertaures, they were on the higher end of the suggested temperatures, and perhaps the very hot july did harm him. i didn't know they'd stop eating if there was too much warmth.
i offered him supers just now as i found him out when i went to turn off his light, he looked at it but didn't make any more to hunt it.

if the lowering of temperatures doesn't work, what else can i try? how long should it be until i can "discard" this method [i mean how long should it theoretically take until he starts eating again with the lowered temps?]

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

......

i've lowered the tempertaures, they were on the higher end of the suggested temperatures, and perhaps the very hot july did harm him. i didn't know they'd stop eating if there was too much warmth.
i offered him supers just now as i found him out when i went to turn off his light, he looked at it but didn't make any more to hunt it.

if the lowering of temperatures doesn't work, what else can i try? how long should it be until i can "discard" this method [i mean how long should it theoretically take until he starts eating again with the lowered temps?]

Please share a picture of your leo. That way we can better help. He could be "bored" with the mealworms.

1. What do you feed the mealworms (when you have them) and the superworms?

2. Do you keep the mealworms in the refrigerator and let them warm up prior to feeding? Then the mealies would be more active.

3. Did he stop eating in July? How warm did his temps get then? It might be time for assist feeding?

I'd give him a week with good temperatures to check out this possibility. Either way, temperatures too warm or too cool, will not make for a comfortable leopard gecko.

4. My reply on post #2 includes a list of things to troubleshoot.

5. Mealworms have a tough exoskeleton called chitin. When temperatures are too low, chitin can be difficult to digest and can also cause impaction.

6. How about copying, pasting, and updating your earlier health questionnaire from January? Perhaps other GU members will have additional feedback?

 

[Kagisnad Malchure]

i will take a picture of her soon, when i update the questionnaire, at the time of posting this i'm in a bit of a rush
i fed the mealworms potato peels and sometime apple peels, same goes for supers
yes that is what i used to do, but they were still inactive. these supers i've kept in a cool area, not the refridgerator, and they are active in their place, but stop a few minutes after i place them in his food bowl
yes, he stopped at the beginning of july, the temperatures went as high as 38 celsius, one day when i was away until the afternoon, i saw them at 40 even, turned off the lamp on the spot. now they are at 33 celsius.
okay, i will wait a week. july was very hard to manage because whenever i would see the temp too high, i would turn off the lamp but later they'd get too low. >.<
his temps were never too low for too long, even when i turned off the lamp they wouldn't go under 30

okay i will copy and answer the list you put there

Improper temps---air temps too hot or too cold
this might be it

Improper humidity---too dry is most common
with the high temperature the humidity might as well gone down too because the water evaporated faster

Stress---too much handling---lack of hides or not enough---cagemate bullying, cage too small, et cetera......
not the case

Repetitious Diet---variety is important
might have gotten bored of mealies, but doesn't touch supers either...

Spoiled food---upset stomach or simply a bad experience (common with superworms)
how would it look if it's spoiled? i usually collect the dark ones from his bowl when they turn like that

Food offered at the wrong time of day---lights on
her food is there at all times for him to hunt, and is refreshed after the lights are turned off

Wrong size prey---too big or too small
she is over a year old, but she is a small gecko..

Improper photoperiod
what?

Prey not recognized---leo needs moving prey to elicit feeding response
this might also be it..

Malfunctioning heating equipment---goes unnoticed---should be checked daily
i checked it multiple times, her UTH and lamp are both fine

UTH is too warm---unregulated---gecko avoids the warm spot, therefore will not eat (need thermostat)
the UTH was fine, and i would see her rest on it sometimes before i turn on the light

Most common of all CHEAP thermometers => false temp readings
the temp readings are good

Too much calcium causing constipation and/or loss of appetite
she didn't receive any anymore when she stopped eating

Parasites
doesn't have where from

Infection
doesn't have where from

Metabolic---calcium or vitamin deficiency
unlikely, she did take her calcium when she had it

Impaction
checked for it, did a warm bath, doesn't seem to be the case. whenever she did eat she would poop the next day.

Dehydration
not the case, i refill her water dish regularly

Pain from an injury or otherwise
not the case

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Please check out the USDA Foods link that you'll find right here: http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...-feeding-issues/68574-cricket-guidelines.html

Mealworms can be fed an All Purpose Poultry Feed or Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food too.

It's important to feed mealies and superworms something besides potato peels and apple peels. Not sure whether you'll be able to find info on those by entering them on the Foods List: Foods List

 

[Tongue Flicker]

I remember i had a gecko who only ate once every 3 weeks. He wasn't losing weight though. And some people thought he still looked good besdides his appetite. So how's your gecko today? Have you tried giving it something more active to catch her attention?

 

[Kagisnad Malchure]

elizabeth, i'm not really sure what to do with the links..
what you mean is that i should feed the worms something else, yes? what should i feed them other than what i mentioned? could their inactivity be due to their diet?

sadly mine has lost weight and i am worried because if she loses more weight she will become underweight, as she seems to have lost all the fat she's stored in her tail
as i said i don't have anything other than supers at the time.. and she hasn't eaten them, but then again they haven't been moving much either...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi Kagisnad ~

Wish I lived closer so that we might better communicate. Above all else, a photo of your leol will still help. A picture is worth 1,000 words.

If your leo is at the point where assist feeding is necessary, Oxbow's Carnivore Care is excellent. Carnivore Care is an all-in-one powdered supplement to which you only add water. Can you order that online?

Click: http://www.amazon.com/s/?ie=UTF8&ke...vptwo=&hvqmt=b&hvdev=c&ref=pd_sl_3y6p9weutc_b

Try placing some turkey or chicken baby food on your leo's snout. See whether he licks it off. Maybe add a little powdered supplement to that.

Perhaps your breeder has some recipe for leos off food?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

elizabeth, i'm not really sure what to do with the links..
what you mean is that i should feed the worms something else, yes? what should i feed them other than what i mentioned? could their inactivity be due to their diet?

sadly mine has lost weight and i am worried because if she loses more weight she will become underweight, as she seems to have lost all the fat she's stored in her tail
as i said i don't have anything other than supers at the time.. and she hasn't eaten them, but then again they haven't been moving much either...

Yes, potato peels and apple peels are not particularly "well balanced" foods. Feed your superworms Zoo Med's Natural Adult Bearded Dragon Food. It is well balanced with much good stuff.

Click: Amazon.com : Zoo Med 20-Ounce Natural Bearded Dragon Food, Adult Formula : Pet Food : Pet Supplies

An alternative food for your superworms and mealworms is an All Purpose Poultry Food which contains a little vitamin A acetate. That might be available in Romania from a feed store.

~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~ ~

#98---United States Department of Agriculture: Foods link
All the bugs and worms we feed our geckos are much higher in phosphorus than calcium. Phosphorus interferes with the absorption of calcium. That's why phosphorus-free supplements are best, or at least supplements with very low phosphorus content.

We lightly dust bugs and worms to correct this imbalance. Dusting should not be the "whole" story. Feeding high phosphorus foods to the bugs/worms makes this impossible. That's why it is best to feed bugs and worms a good dry diet plus adding low phosphorus/high calcium veggies (pesticide-free collard greens and dandelion greens).

We wish to achieve something close to a 1.5-2.0 calcium : 1.0 phosphorus ratio.

1. Click: Foods List

2. Enter some food like wheat bran

3. Scroll down for calcium and phosphorus per 100 grams, for instance, and compare

4. Wheat bran (for instance)
calcium 73
phosphorus 1,013
ratio: 0.07

5. Oats (for instance)
calcium 54
phosphorus 523
ratio: 0.10

 

[Kagisnad Malchure]

i will take a picture when i get home today.

at the moment i can't order anything online, i'm going through some financial struggles, some expensive things came up for my mom, and my income has dwindled too.. hoping they'll be cleared up as soon as possible but right now i can barely afford proper food for myself. buying his supers alone was quite difficult. however, once i will be better off, i could order things.

however, chicken baby food for the leo and poultry food for the worms might be available here too so i will check relevant stores. i had no idea worms needed special care too, i can't remember where, but when i first got the gecko i read that peels will do.
geckos can digest chicken baby food? how come it isn't used commonly then?

oh i understand, i will check the list also when i get home.. but still, other than specially prepared food supplements, what would be good to feed worms? things that can be found in grocery stores. i'm asking in case i won't figure it out from the list, until i find poultry food.

as a sort of update, i've reintroduced moisture in his cage, before this i would mist his moist hide once a week, he always shed without problems so i thought it's fine. but now i've placed a moist paper towel under his moist hide. i've looked in the stores and they didn't have moss.
i will feed the worms poultry when i get it, if not, any food off that list that will do and can be found in grocery stores.
after that, i plan to try and feed him by dropping worms in his cage at night.

edit: just saw your post above. i am still checking of course, however i'm quite busy irl now, always get home tired, and don't get to check it daily. i'm really at wit's end with his situation now, i rely entirely on your help. he's my first reptile so i am wholly dependant on the wisdom of those who have had more.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hi Kagisnad ~

Did you see both my posts #9 and #10 above...a bit comprehensive? :yahoo: on reintroducing a moist hide!

Sorry to hear about your money troubles right now.

Leos can digest chicken and turkey baby food. That is not ideal, but much better than nothing.

Poultry food for the worms will be very good. It is very cheap in the USA! I use an All Purpose Poultry Feed for my crickets and Blaptica dubia all the time. I sometimes add collard greens and/or pesticide-free dandelion flowers/greens.

I don't know what the peels contain. No info came up for either on that foods link. :-(

It is hard to throw in stuff here and there from a grocery store. That's why I use an All Purpose Poultry Feed. That's why I posted the USDA foods link. Do you understand how that link works?

Back later, but not for about 16 or so hours.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

okay i will copy and answer the list you put there

1. Improper temps---air temps too hot or too cold
this might be it

Progress?

2. Improper humidity---too dry is most common
with the high temperature the humidity might as well gone down too because the water evaporated faster

Can you add a 2nd water bowl to help with humidity?

Stress---too much handling---lack of hides or not enough---cagemate bullying, cage too small, et cetera......
not the case

3. Repetitious Diet---variety is important
might have gotten bored of mealies, but doesn't touch supers either...

4. Spoiled food---upset stomach or simply a bad experience (common with superworms)
how would it look if it's spoiled? i usually collect the dark ones from his bowl when they turn like that

The dead/dark mealworms or supers are not good.

5. Food offered at the wrong time of day---lights on
her food is there at all times for him to hunt, and is refreshed after the lights are turned off

Sounds good.

6. Wrong size prey---too big or too small
she is over a year old, but she is a small gecko..

Would love to see a picture.

7. Improper photoperiod
what?

How much light does her cage get during the day?

A photo period is all about copying lighting situations in a leo's natural habitat. By adding a low wattage light bulb (say 15 watt dimmed to half power) for say 11 hours per day we can simulate daylight.

8. Prey not recognized---leo needs moving prey to elicit feeding response
this might also be it..

Malfunctioning heating equipment---goes unnoticed---should be checked daily
i checked it multiple times, her UTH and lamp are both fine

UTH is too warm---unregulated---gecko avoids the warm spot, therefore will not eat (need thermostat)
the UTH was fine, and i would see her rest on it sometimes before i turn on the light

Most common of all CHEAP thermometers => false temp readings
the temp readings are good

9. Too much calcium causing constipation and/or loss of appetite
she didn't receive any anymore when she stopped eating

I understand.

10. Parasites
doesn't have where from

Parasites could come from mealworms or superworms.

11. Infection
doesn't have where from

12. Metabolic---calcium or vitamin deficiency
unlikely, she did take her calcium when she had it

Impaction
checked for it, did a warm bath, doesn't seem to be the case. whenever she did eat she would poop the next day.

13. Dehydration
not the case, i refill her water dish regularly

Do you know whether she is drinking?

Pain from an injury or otherwise
not the case

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