Leo acting strange...

RyoDai89

New member
Long story short, my sister has had a leopard gecko for... a few months now. I want to say she got it in November of last year...

Well, long story short, as I've had many reptiles myself, this guy/gal is acting pretttty odd for a leo, imo.

It all started off well.
He's been in ten gal. With that reptile carpet on the bottom. Has two hides. A water dish. And a wet paper towel (off in the corner, not in a hide) changed daily/every other day (they were told it was cheaper than the moss and did the same thing as it so...).
Not sure on the bulb they use... They have a heat mat, but they always seem to only use the light. (I honestly have the same one and it never seems to give off any heat :I) All I know is that it's a purple/black light, and does produce a pretty good amount of heat. (They have a stick on thermometer but you can hardly read it :/). And the leave it on alllllllllll the time. It's never been cut off.

When they first got it, it was taking out crickets like THAT! They then moved it up 2 months later... from tiny pin-heads to medium/small... And it did good. But then, it just stopped. I told them it might have just been intimidated by the size, so they went back to smaller ones and- nope! Won't even bat an eye at the tiny ones, and acts afraid of the bigger ones.
All it eats now is mealworms. We tried not letting it eat for three or so days to see if hunger would take and he'd get back on the crickets... but it just isn't happening. (I should note they never and never have powdered the crickets/meal worms).
He'll eat, maybe 10 or so mealworms a day/every other day. But that's it. And he won't eat out of a dish, only if you put it down in front of him. (One at a time though. Put more than one? It goes right back into his hide.).
On top of that, they never mist.
He's been shedding great up until that last two times I've been told. And both times I had to help him out by pulling it off myself. (The skin was already dry to the point that soaking wouldn't even help but we fixed him up.)

They hardly take him out because he 'flailed' one time and scared my sister. So now he just sits in the one hide under the heat all day and night... He NEVER leaves. Ever. Not at night. Not in the day. He just 'sleeps' all day/night long. In the same hide.
I've been trying to take him out now that I've been over more often... And it walks really strange? It won't pick its head up... It's not dragging it per se but it's clearly touching the ground. And it pulled it's front legs when walking almost under it's sides... As though it's pushing itself with it's back legs but still moving his front legs a little to walk too and- not sure if this is making sense. I should probably post a video somewhere...

But yeah. It just comes across as odd. He's not skinny by any means. Or fat either! Just by looking at him you'd never assume there was something 'off' about it. The tail is pretty plump, it's honestly a mystery... When he's out, other than the walking he seems pretty a-ok...
I only PRAY he walks this way because he's always cooped up in his hide but never leaves...

He drinks too. Anytime you wet the paper towel after he eats and put him on it... he drinks quite alot. (Not alot in the sense that that seems off, but I've never seen mine so... yeah...).
I should also note he sheds about every 2-3 weeks? He'll be 'pretty' for about a week. Turn 'dull' for about a week and a half, and then shed again.

His poop seems okay too...


She also got her's at PetSmart.
It was with a big group and was the biggest of them all. We were told it was a bit pissy than the others but she wanted that one. I highly doubt it misses it's 'friends' and needs another (she's 9 btw...) but it 'being pissy' did kinda make me wonder what that meant...

But yeah, was wondering if anyone had any ideas, or if there is anything that could possibly 'improve' what ever this little bud has (or doesn't have) other than what I KNOW already needs to be done (like the mealworms at the least being powdered...)


But yeah... any thoughts? I'd definitely appreciate it...




Edit:
Trying to upload pics from mom's potato...
Note! Please excuse water stains... just washed his bowl out and... yeah. That's why he's in the coconut, and not his usual hide in the rock... (I also moved lamp over too as they've always had it over his rock hide due to it getting cold)




gecko_pic 1 .jpg




gecko_pic 2 .jpg



gecko_pic 3 .jpg
 

RyoDai89

New member
Edit:

Probably a little crowded with fake plants he doesn't use imo (I mean they got him in a 10 gal but still :I... Trying to get video now, this phone sucks XI)
 

RyoDai89

New member
Video posted to youtube

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUeO3MeP1r8


Only way I could get it up :/
And... you realllly can't see him tucking his legs the whole way under him like he was doing before as he walked... but hopefully you can kinda see what I mean... hopefully... As I'm sure the light from the phone scared the hell outta him. I'd rather not do it again...
 

kholtme

New member
Looking at the video, and what you described by the way he walks, it seems he has Metabolic Bone Decease (MBD). I also noticed a lot wrong with his enclosure. I dont know what you know is wrong, so im going to state it all. (You say its your sisters gecko, but im going to state everything towards you, its easier for the conversation, please dont think im aiming at you in disrespect)
1. 10 gallons is too small for a leopard gecko, minimum is 20 gallon long.
2. You want 3 hides, warm humid hide, warm dry hide, and a dry cool hide.
3. Under tank heat (UTH) should be the primary heat source keeping ground temps around 88-92. Over head heat can be used but should not replace a uth. Uth should be 1/2 the size of the bottom of the enclosure.
4. He probably isnt leaving his hide because the light is on 24/7, leos are nocturnal, so how will he know when its night time if the "sun" is always shinning. Also bright lights stress leos out, Ceramic heat emitters (CHE) are recommended over any other bulb. They produce heat without light. Leos are most active at night...
5. Whats the point of the wet paper towel if it isnt in a hide? This will not create the proper humidity for shedding, and he has a water bowl to drink from. Misting the tank is not a good idea because it will cause respiratory problems, you werent doing this but just wanted to inform you.
6. He most likely isnt eating because he doesnt have the proper temps to digest his food, and most likely has MBD, it probably hurts to walk. This could also be a reason to why he never leaves his hide.
7. Is your gecko 9 years old, or your sister? Leos dont care to have company, they are not social like humans. They cant feel lonely. Also a male should never be housed with another male, and only with a female during breeding season. Only females can live together, but at the state this gecko is in, i wouldnt recommend getting another until your setup is where it should be, and i wouldnt recommend housing any geckos with this one out of fear of it getting the other one sick, or the new gecko stressing this one out more.
8. Your gecko has MBD because you never gave it supplements. People dont supplement for fun, its an important factor in keeping a healthy leopard gecko.
9. stick on thermometers are useless, you need a digital thermometer with a probe for most accurate readings. And its on the cool end, not even under the light.
10. I recommend never buying animals from pet stores. Find a good breeder and you will start off with a healthy gecko, not a mistreated animal.


Sorry for being so straight forward, but thats the way i would want it.
 
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RyoDai89

New member
Nah, it's fine!

1)Ditto! Totally agree! Mine were always in 30 gallons... But, when I was asked 'personally' by my mom, I told them the ten would be okay for him to grow out in for a couple months (thinking they'd get a bigger tank around Christmas... because Christmas...) But even I was a bit beside myself with how big he was when I first seen him... nonetheless, no tank was gotten...

2) That was why I mentioned the hides. He had another coconut but... as you can see it was crowded so they took it out from what my understanding was.

3) That's what I use! Which was why I bought them the mat. But, and I'll have to agree, when it was cold it was not putting out any heat at all. Now, maybe they can go back to it. But the hottest side with the mat was like 65... Now, with the lamp the cool side is around 75 I think... Dunno what the hot side is ('cause like I said, they've got one of those stick on things... Hell, I don't even know if it works.)

4) I thought about that... And will agree that the lamp reallllly shouldn't be on at all when there's a mat. But this thing really isn't bright at all :/. It does good heat, but you really have to look at it to see the coils if it's on. If you cut all the lights out, it is indeed pitch black. It wasn't even the light that came in the kit they bought. I told them LGs are nocturnal so... that's the light they got. No clue where or what. All I know is that it was indeed for reptiles...

5) I said something, but according to them he wouldn't go in the hide with the paper towel. So they pulled it out (and at one point had 3 coconuts and the paper towel. Took one coconut out for the rock, took the other out for overcrowding, and left the paper towel. Which he was using. I did mist the cage a couple of times, but not for humidity purposes. They called the shop whom insisted it was because they didn't drink from bowls and only from drops of water when you missed. Obviously, despite knowing otherwise my mom and sister were scared so I did mist once a week for 2 or so weeks... naturally nothing happened. But if you wet the paper towel sure enough there he is. Doesn't even bother with the bowel. Which makes me wonder if they never had standing water at the store and just misted?)


6) That, in all honesty was my first assumption. That it was something to do with food. Either lack of calcium, or not being able to digest.


7) Gecko was bought around November. Sister is 9 years old. Dunno how old the gecko is, but compared to the video my mom sent me, he was way bigger than all the others in the enclosure at the store.
And that's exactly what I told her! I said word for word, reptiles in GENERAL are not like mice and rats... they don't need friends. It's quite the opposite! I told her the guy just wanted her money in a not so nice a way- but her being nine you just know those were not the kinds of words she wants to hear.


8 ) I said as such. And in their defense, they did go up a few times to get some. But they were either out, were told it wasn't needed, or the store was closed (as 3 different times the place had a gas leak and they've had to throw out live food because of fear of being 'infected'). They've had frogs and dusted their food... no clue why they thought this guy/gal didn't need it.


9) I know right! You can't move em' once they've stuck! They never read right! You can't EVEN read em'! And just... like noooooo! I wish they'd have just waited till' I could have gone with em...


10) I'll admit, I've bought alot of my pets from stores :I. But most were from a really nice place where... you knew the breeders! The people! We'd been getting stuff from them for over 10 years! Just recently though, they closed after 39 years! Place was awesome!
Unfortunately this fellow was from PetSmart so... yeah...


No, lol, your good! I much prefer getting straight to business!

Now though, I've a question... Now I've never dealt with MBD. Heard of it. Read about it. Never seen it. How would one go about treating him I mean... I'm personally in the works of getting him a new tank (been checking out CS every other day), but aside from fixing everything that's wrong, I can't help but think that still won't be enough?
 

LEOPARD1

New member
MBD, Hump Back (spine) get it to a vet the Gecko is salvageable. Ditch the lights and I would go as far as putting a milk cap of calcium w/ d3 in the enclosure immediately. Then work out a dusting schedule with the Mealworms. Mealworms are not a good or bad staple, likely your Gecko will switch back and forth between Crickets and Mealworms (Mealworms dont dust well, meaning the supplement has to be applied thoroughly to be effective.

I suggest you (I'm looking at a dozen supplements from the U.S and abroad) buy Zoo Meds Repti-Calcium with Vitamin D3 and dust accordingly AT THE BEGGINING, MEANING NOW.

Fortunately all my LG's have a dish of Vionate & Osteoform and have never had MBD.

Elizabeth has a great overall dusting schedule. Hopefully she posts it. I could not advise you in that area. You should switch to that when your Gecko is out of the woods.

I'm typing this from my Anesthesiologists office, so what I put forth is very basic regarding MBD and I am assuming if you fix your husbandry techniques all will go well. I could go into that but its mostly opinions with a handful of solid fact. Plus I'm at the Dr's Office.

He's calling my name...


Good Luck!
 
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kholtme

New member
Is it a zoo med heat mat? Those arent very good. I recommend ultratherm or fulkers heat mats! Leopard geckos get heat from their bellies, they dont bask. This is why your want to use the mat instead of the light. And i still dont like the idea of the light being on 24/7, leopard geckos can see all colors of light. So red or blue bulbs dont make a difference. Your going to want to talk to a vet about the MBD, and make sure you get the husbandry on point!
 

LEOPARD1

New member
Flukers and Ultratherm are great. Kholtme is saving your Gecko from unnecessarily high temps, cracked glass and I have had a number of people tell me they (Zoo Med) do not respond well to thermostats or rheostats.

Plus they are not reusable.
 

RyoDai89

New member
I've said from the get go that the mat was needed. That they shouldn't use the light at all. But the mat we got... you couldn't feel any heat coming off and with it being cold months ago they were afraid he'd freeze. So left it on.
I plan on getting another mat, but for now, until my day off will it be okay to go ahead and use the mat we currently have instead of the light? Or will the lack of heat harm it more? The closest pet shop, Petsmart, only sells the ZooMed and Great choice so it'll be a drive to get to another place. I get my schedule today so I'm not sure how long it'll have to wait to get the new mat/vet appointment.
(I should note, the cool side says 60-70 degrees, not sure about the hot side, where he's always at.)
Petsmart does carry the powder (not sure what brands yet) so that'll definitely be done today. (I'd give em' some of mine but I'm pretty sure it's expired as I mostly have just snakes now :/. Hence why I'm at a loss at what to do as none of my previous lizards ever got to this point :/.)
 

RyoDai89

New member
UPDATE!

So, while not really an update, they were completely out of powder...
I have all intentions of getting powder tomorrow, but what we ended up coming back with was Zilla Calcium Supplement Spray. Which, they told us we HAD to have because that's what would stick to the mealworms before we could start giving him crickets again...
So basically what I asking is... is this at all gonna help, along WITH the powder (as they said, like others have that the powder won't stick to the mealworms) or did I just waste 9-10 bucks?
 

lbanta

New member
I have also seen the liquid calcium spray and wondered about using it. Seems like it would adhere better than powder. Has anyone used it?
 

LEOPARD1

New member
I have never heard of anyone using "spray supplements" for Leos past a duration of time to get powder supplements. So I guess your in the clear.

I know a lot of LG keepers are young because for some arbitrary reason they have been labeled beginners herps. If you jump on Amazon set up an account put in a couple of your debit cards or credit cards you can order almost anything for a Leo on the cheap with little or no shipping costs via prime or add on items.
 

RyoDai89

New member
Tried feeding him... But he wouldn't eat :/. Sometimes he'll only eat every other day from what i've been told. But I tried both with the spray and without, and nope!
Gonna try again tomorrow...


ah! I've actually had many reptiles, mostly snakes- but I've never once had a problem... Hence why I'm a bit perplexed as to how to go about all this... I'm not sure when things started going bad or for how long... I just noticed when taking him out that he'd started walking strangely... Hopefully though this is all, whatever it is, being caught early!

I actually order alot of my stuff online/Amazon. I might end up buying mats and what-not there, but before I go about buying any tanks or what have you, I'll definitely be taking him to the vet first. Hopefully by this week. Schedule is all over the place but I'm going to try to get this guy in soon :/. Until then, everything else aside from powder will have to be second.

He's also using a mat now- but quick question! The cool side is around 76. How does one tell the temp on the warm side what with using the heat mat... naturally it's not going to heat the air- the bottom is pretty warm. Just don't know if it's warm enough... so I really want to know if it's warm enough :/
 

kholtme

New member
You really need to buy a digital thermometer with a probe. that sticker thing is useless, and its measuring the air temp where your gecko cant even reach, so its 100% pointless. You can get one for $10.

After your vet visit i would recommend getting a bigger tank before you get a uth... Because if you get a uth for the 10 gallon, your going to need to upgrade your uth when you upgrade your tank. So, i would get a 20 gallon long, and then a 11x17 uth. Good brands are ultratherm or fulkers. And then you are going to want a thermostat to help maintain a steady temp of 88-92 on the warm end.

I highly recommend getting zoo med calcium with d3 and zoo med reptivite without d3 for supplements. I ordered mine on ebay, but they can be found on amazon too. Sometimes at pet stores, but its hit and miss. These supplements are the best for the health of your gecko.
 

RyoDai89

New member
I wrote so much but... ah it disappeared :I...

So, basically...

I know the one thermometer won't cut it. But until I have enough money after the vet (as I've no idea how much that'll cost) I was curious to see just how warm he was.... naturally I don't want him cold...


I'm trying to find at least a 30 or more gallon because all the 20's I see seem rather tall? I've always used 30's (never had LGs but did have other reptiles and the like) so yeah, trying to find some on CL. (cheapest place honestly)


Getting powder tomorrow as I do have time to do that. I was gonna order online but, due to scheduling he might not be able to see the vet till' the end of the week. So, kinda rushing here to atleast get that and HOPEFULLY he'll be a bit better. As I can't imagine the stress of a long car ride doing him any favors without him eating more/at all.


I'm not a millionaire. Money IS tight. So, aside from the vet (emergency funds as that's a must NOW) it'll probably be a few weeks to get everything upgraded. Maybe one or two things a week depending on prices...

You would happen to have links to the heat mats and thermostat you use would you?
 

RyoDai89

New member
Cool side moves between 76F and 74F. That much I know. No idea what the heat was with the lamp on the warm side and definitely don't know the temp of it now with the mat on (as there really is no way to tell using that thermometer.)
 

LEOPARD1

New member
Well If I was lacking instruments and such and the cool side is 76 above ground I would hope the warm side is at least in the low 90's on the ground given you have an un regulated zoo med heat pad it could be that or higher. I dont know if you have a simple old glass thermometer for kids, if so I would assume placing the mercury on the ground above the heat pad could give you some idea. If its going to be a week or more I have a digital thermometer/hygrometer (cordless/probeless) I would mail you....It was mentioned on a forum for weather enthusiasts and again on a cigar forum no need to buy "Reptile Specific" supplies, waste of money, I've wasted thousands on name brand terrariums and gauges and everything else, if your out 10 bucks on a spray I would be overjoyed. I've sent digital thermometers (hydrofarm) I had laying around odds and ends I just didnt need to handles at such and such address from this forum. It either is used or tossed in the "Reptile Closet" its getting g bare though.
 

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RyoDai89

New member
Sorry for the late reply...

Anyways, yeah, I'd feel bad if you had to spare me stuff they should have got in the first place... I can't get it all at once but I can (and will) eventually get it. Just not sure on the exact equipment (I don't want to buy something too expensive that's not worth it or something so cheap it's crap y'know?)
And any reptiles I have/had have tooootally different needs so, trying to get right stuff... Never had a gecko like their leopard kind...
Got the powder... He still wouldn't eat (he's gone atleast 2 or 3 days so I'm hoping he'll eat tomorrow) and we put a cap of it in his tank too.

When putting your hand on the bottom of the tank when the mats on... it's pretty hot! Not like 'holy crap he'll burn hot', but it was pretty warm. Problem is, once you put that green mat over it, you hardly feel anything (maybe it just takes time for it to warm that up? No idea?)
But yeah, it's once of those kiddy stick on the glass thermometers. I gueessss you could put it on the bottom and just lift the mat to tell for sure? But that's alot of trouble to be disrupting him all the time :/...


Ah, yeah, been burned before. Sucks 10 bucks is gone but like you, I've wasted much more (especially when I first started into getting reptiles). Again though, as I can't imagine how much shipping would be (where as it'd be free if I just saved up instead of buying stuff one at a time and got everything at once on amazon) so I really don't want you to have to go through trouble with something I SHOULD have been on. (I honestly thought they could handle everything) I just wish I had an exact list, y'know?
On the heater, thermometer, and what have you and brands and stuff... Just need to make a list so I know exactly what to buy.
 

RyoDai89

New member
Depending on how much the vet will cost, I'm thinking maaaaaybe I could swing both the vet and tank if I can find a good deal on one on CL.

I found the ultratherm heat mats (couldn't find flukers on amazon) but what kind of digital thermometer? Any kind? Do you just touch the glass/mat with it and bam?
And does a certain thermostat have to fit certain mats? Or could I get just any kind of thermostat for any kind of mats and it'll still fit like, universally?

... Trying to make a list now, so when I hear from the vet, I know how much I'm gonna be spending. Hell, if the vet's relatively cheap (though I doubt this), or can do payments, I might be able to get everything in one week.
 
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