Crested Gecko care...

[RyoDai89]

So, I've just come back from the vet again.
And it's been a really really horrible month.

I think I'd posted recently about our other leo...
His poop was green. Took him to the vet and supposedly nothing was found in fecal tests. It must have been hornworms.

He says to keep doing what I'm doing... so I do. The leo seems fine otherwise. But the poop is green and the vet can't tell me why.
...
Also, he say it's a she despite pores clearly visible but hey, he's the vet right....



Literally 2-3 weeks ago, not even long after the vet appointments, my two anoles get sick and die. Had them for forever it seems. Never had an issue, and now, they're gone.
One right after the other.
As soon as they showed signs of being ill... it was too late.
Before that they'd seemed fine too except... green poop.
Hornworms I'm told. (Didn't get fecal for them though, just the vet's thoughts.)
As for their deaths, possibly old age.... They might have been WC or something he says...
(We talked about the husbandry but according to him it was fine... but both dying, what in the world?)


And then today...

My smallest crested has just died a few hours ago. Seemingly randomly but probably not so random because... with everything else going on how can it NOT be related?
Especially with all tanks being almost next to eachother...


We'd had him for 6 months, and he just died...
He never really grew from day one (never lost any weight either though?)... And his tail was always weirdly thin?
I mean really really strangely thin. But he'd always seemed okay...
Ironically poop was normal but still...

Saturday he'd acted odd. And he looked like he had 2-3 huge lumps on his sides.
Sunday he was walking strange.
Monday we made the vet appointment.
Today he's gone.


And now I'm starting to wonder if maybe there was something in the fecal that went unchecked from the leo... and now I'm concerned if whatever it is might be spreading.

He died before the vet appointment. But because of everything happening... I decided it best to shell out the money for a necropsy.

I HAVE to know how it died... Or atleast if it was a carrier to something the others now might have/had.


We just got back about an hour ago... and they just threw me for a huge loop.

Forget the fact that I was ALREADY questioning the vet when we brought the leo in because... the leo looks male to me but they say it's female? And it's poop is still green despite not giving the leo anymore hornworms and nothing was found in fecal tests so they just 'don't know'...

But as for the care of the crested's... now they REALLY have me wondering if they know what they're doing...

Supposedly... I'm doing it alllllllllll wrong :I.


Now, I have the 2 in 2 seperate 18x18x24 exo terras. The tiny one that died was in a plastic tub because it's so small. (On paper towel with fake plants and fake hide.)
Temps about 70-75 depending on if the A/C kicks on at night.
Mist twice a day.
Feed Pangea's CGD every night, with insects once or twice a week (sometimes the two bigger ones won't even take an insect though)
And the 2 tanks are planted...
The only light being an LED for the plants...


Today, I was told I was not keeping them properly...
That I should-

Feed them ONLY crickets. No more CGD.
Have a moist hide, despite misting the whole tank and the bottom being covered in moss/(or paper towel) to keep humidity up...
They shouldn't have to eat their shed. The only do so if they aren't getting the right nutrition...
And that they should have a light source, so they can digest the calcium and what have you. But not just any light source, they need a 90 degrees basking spot...
That maybe that's why the tiny little guy died... because '-no basking light to digest properly'?


The other 2 are perfectly fine. Have grown, stool is normal. Eat their CGD every night.... no issues... but I'd never heard of the stuff she was saying to do... not for crested's.
I did loads of research, even talk to the places I got them from. Looked up caresheets... everything.
Made sure I knew everything before getting them a year after I started reading about em'.

I'm at a loss.


Now, I don't know whether I'M the one not caring for them right... or if this vet doesn't know what it's doing.
That maybe one of the reptiles DID have something and they never found it and... god I don't know.

All this happening and now I've lost 3 animals, with one still pooping green?
...
And it's hornworms? Still? (Even though the crested never had any hornworms being so small.)

Way too much of a coincidence.

I get the results tomorrow but... I think I'm gonna find a new vet...
Honestly, 90 degree basking light? No CGD...?

What an awful awful day... And in the end I only wonder if they'll give me any answers... or if I'll just be jerked around like I feel like I have been.
Because if they do find something, and all along that's what was going on... it could have possibly been prevented, right?
My whole routine now, has changed. I'm tearing tanks apart that I spent alot of money on putting together, freaking out, and all I can wonder is what the hell I did wrong?
And what it is I should be hoping they find in the necropsy... anything, nothing... I don't know.



Been a long day.

 

[Yoshi'smom]

So the vet told you that you should only be feeding insects?!?!
That's very wrong.
In the wild they are frugivorus and will also eat insects to supplement their diet. Pangea complete diets have all the necessary nutrition for crested geckos. An all insect diet is a very poor diet and will lead to an unhealthy gecko.
Did the vet do a check for Crypto on the fecal exam?
That's what sounds like could have been the issue.
I'm glad you decided on a necropsy. It may point you in the right direction.
I would sterilize everything that you can in any remaining geckos/reptiles tanks.
Was the leopard gecko a new acquisition? If so, it's always best to practice a quarantine period for this reason alone. You never know if an animal is carrying a disease or parasite.
I'm so sorry that all this happened at once. I can only imagine how sad you must feel.
I would take the time to research a qualified reptile veterinarian.

 

[Aimless]

^agreed, except about the insects only part. I've known a few people who feed insects only and have kept and bred cresteds for years. the trick is you absolutely have to gutload and supplement properly or it's not nutritionally correct.

it's usually just so much easier to feed a diet based on the MRPs, and especially if you're a relatively inexperienced reptile keeper.

second for sure on the necropsy. I really hope you get some good information.

 

[RyoDai89]

I'm not even joking. Their exact words were '-we want you to start giving them a mainly cricket/meat diet and to start cutting back on the Pangea mix until they start eating just the crickets...'.
I mean, at first I was confused. Crickets as a main diet? But so long as the still get the Pangea mix right? I mean... I can give them more insects I suppose.
Nope.
They should be eating only insects after I basically wean them off the CGD...

I mean, I'd talked to other breeders... read LOADS upon loads of stuff...
And normally I'm the one that'll say you should always trust your vet over anything you see on the internet but she floored me.


I did the fecal for the leopard... he said he found no parasites or bacteria... never said anything about crypto. But then, while he has lost weight, the leo acts fine otherwise. No stick tail, nothing... just green poop.
He also sits in the moist hide alot more now but other than that, you'd think he was perfectly healthy.


Would crypto be contagious to other animals like the anoles or the cresteds...?
Because, if you want my personal opinion... If I had to pick a 'carrier' for anything, I'd say it was probably the tiny crested.
We'd gotten 2 at the same time. Both the same size roughly... but the other ballooned in size! The tiny one would eat a cricket any time I offered but never grew at all... It was strange, imo. But everyone I'd talk to said every gecko is different and grows at their own rate. Which I'd agree with. But looking back I have to wonder at what point I should have seen it as a red flag and maybe he could have been saved...
because the other is around 40 grams now... the tiny guy never made it past 4 grams.

Hoping to get results here soon.
I'll tell you what though. After being told how I'm basically not caring for them correctly (90 degrees basking spot is still throwing me for a loop), I had to keep arguing with 3 people that I wanted the body back.
They asked if I did. I said yeah.
First one tried to talk me out of keeping it. Said it'd be gross and all...
I kept saying no thanx, I want it back.
I go to pay, they try to charge me for disposal of the body. I'm like... noooooo....? I want him back.
They're like, you sure? It says you don't... told them to please give me him back, I'd like to bury him...
Another person comes out to give me papers to sign. Says they'll cremate him for me for free if I'd like. They'll then give me the ashes... I said no. Again. I want the body. They said I could have him back before I got there. And I said if I could not, I'll try elsewhere... They said, '- okay that's fine, but he won't look the same...'...
Over and over I had to keep hearing this, but it felt so odd...? Is that how it usually is?
I swear, it makes me angry thinking about it. But like I said to my friend. I better come back out with the same gecko I came in with and it better be a body and not something else.

I'm currently disinfecting everything. Tossing alot of stuff. Decorations, live plants, everything... Anything that can be washed I'm trying to clean. But disposable stuff and plants I'm just pitching.


The leo was a family member's that we now have because they decide they couldn't care for it anymore.
Despite knowing the animal a while, I did indeed quarantine it. Can never be too safe...
Problem is, my sister and her cousins/friends like to bring them out. Both the leos and the cresteds (not the anoles though).
I know to wash my hands and clean anything and everything used around them. But I won't lie, I have caught them taking one out, putting them back and then taking another out right after them.
And them being 'kids' they probably don't wash they're hands...

But they also never touched the little guy though. I had him where they couldn't reach him. And not only told them he was off limits since he was so small. I was always in the room when they were here...
I did however, have someone watch them for 3 or so days... fed all my animals for me as I had to go out of town for family issues.
But they have reptiles too. So I'd always assumed they'd know to disinfect everything before feeding each one. But now I wonder if there was some cross contamination at some point...
Hell. It could have been me too. I probably have used the tongs to toss the crickets into each cage when in a hurry. Never really thinking about it (until signs started showing in the leo). So to be honest, despite quarantining it could have been me being careless just trying to get the crickets in without too much hassle... and never thought twice about it. Which I know is a number one rule. Having snakes... I've always always always cleaned off tongs in between feeding each one. Especially because I'm feeding mice. But now, I can probably bet you anything I'd never thought about it when it came to the crickets.



It's funny though. We'd called around trying to find herp vets. There were 3 places recommended. Ironically, ALL three places have the same guy as their herp vet. He moves from vet to vet I suppose?
Even PetSmart goes to this guy... But I know another private pet store in Va Beach and, despite it being a pet store I think I'm going to call them too and ask where they go.
They keep their cresteds and gargs the same way as I. So I'm curious to know if they see the same person, and if so, were they told the same thing...


Because after being told nothing is wrong with the one animal. And now I've got 3 dead (2 of which I'd had for a very long time with no issue at all) within a 2 week period and the one we brought in still is pooping green... it makes you wonder.
Add that to the info I was told yesterday about crested care and now I'm suspicious they may not know a whole lot...

(I also want to add. When they did the fecal on the leo, they said they didn't get a whole lot. But from what they did manage to get outta him they seen nothing... is it possible that, because they got so few/little of a stool sample... that maybe that's why they didn't see anything..?)

 

[RyoDai89]

I'd heard that too...
Alot will actually feed the crickets some for of CGD too.
So when she said it I'd initially was like... okay I guess...
But why not feed them both I mean... made no sense to me to ditch one over the other if I'm giving them both.

But then she said we needed a humid hide despite the whole tank being humid. (She also called it a 'people hide'... had NO idea what she meant at first.)

But what got me was, she'd said to raise the temps and that they needed a 90 degree basking spot.
I'd never ever heard that one.
I mean... they sleep ALL day until the late afternoon. They're up all night until early morning so, when would they bask?
And even if they did, 90 degrees..? I thought it was bad for them to go over 80-85?

The way she described that set up... you'd think she was talking about a leo.
We even asked- she said no, she did indeed mean cresteds. Even said the live high in the trees so it's much hotter up there so ofcourse 90 degrees makes sense...
Then she prints some papers for a leo... gives it to us. But 'clarifies'... says she does indeed know we're talking about a crested here... but cresteds and leos have the same care.
No lie. That's what was said.
Even went FURTHER to say that they don't need it hot like a bearded dragon, but cresteds and leos need the same kind of husbandry...

Definitely made me second guess myself...


I'm praying I get something.
I mean, I'm praying they actually give me the right info! But I hope they do find something. I just don't know what it is I should be hoping to hear...
That I've now got an outbreak going on and that would explain everything..? That it's all a coincidence..?
I want news, info, everything... but not sure what it is I'm actually hoping to hear...

 

[Yoshi'smom]

You can use the CGD to gutload your insects. I've heard that crickets and roaches love it.
I still wouldn't offer insects alone (just my opinion).
You may find that your gecko refuses insects. I've found that a good chunk of my adults just turn their nose up at them.
Keep us updated on the results and how your gecko is doing.

Edits:
Crypto is HIGHLY contagious.

I also provide humid hides to all of my geckos in the form of a laybox regardless of gender. Sometimes even males like to dig around and it's a good spot for them to hang out in while they shed.
It wouldn't hurt to provide something similar to your remaining geckos.

They don't need a basking spot being that they are nocturnal but they can tolerate temps up to 90F as long as high humidity is maintained. The main concern with high temperatures is the likelihood of dehydration. Humidity is very important. Ideally just keep them at room temp or a little warmer.

Again, I would definitely find another reptile specialist vet. This one clearly doesn't understand that Leopard geckos come from Pakistan (an arid desert-like/scrub land) and Crested geckos come from New Caledonia (a temperate rainforest) and so clearly need vastly different enclosures/husbandry.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I think I'd posted recently about our other leo...
His poop was green. Took him to the vet and supposedly nothing was found in fecal tests. It must have been hornworms.

He says to keep doing what I'm doing... so I do. The leo seems fine otherwise. But the poop is green and the vet can't tell me why.

:sorry: about your recent losses and your vet troubles. All your concerns are TOTALLY justified!

Is the green poop from your leo Boomie? Hornworms cause softer feces, but NOT green feces. Another type infection might cause green poop. Has the green feces ever been cultured for bacteria?

Definitely find another vet.

Click: Association of Reptilian and Amphibian Veterinarians

Click: The Scoop on Poop - Gecko Time - Gecko Time

Please share a picture for sexing help.

 

[RyoDai89]

Oh I know!
If I ever make a little extra I'll sometimes give the crickets and roaches the CGD. And it'll disappear in less than 20 minutes.


And yeah that was another thing I brought up.
That's why I guess she wanted us to stop giving them the powder. Because once the two bigger ones got to a certain weight... about 34-38, they stopped eating crickets and the like.
The one will eat a couple, but it used to just take em' right out! We climb towards the front as soon as it seen me with the container of em'.
The other. She won't touch em' at all... I think she ate 1 cricket like... 2-3 weeks ago? I still offer em' but she'll either take em' or not. I don't know how I'm supposed to make em' eat more insects if she's preferring to eat the CGD...
(Which she'll just take out! I recently got the one with insects now and holy crap... probably the favorite between all three!)


I knew crypto was contagious. Couldn't find though whether it can go from one species to another.
He never mentioned it, but all signs looked as though he'd had parasites. He hadn't lost alot of weight really quickly and hasn't lost any as of recent either.
It's not runny... and it used to be a kinda 'neon green' but lately it's now a kinda brown/green color mix..?
Not pale, and imo looks better than it did when we brought him in but... yeah. Still green. And when I asked why, if it wasn't parasites or bacteria, he said he was unsure... hornworms he comes up with.
(Which I knew was bull because the other ones eat hornworms and their poop is perfectly fine...)


It's funny, I'd meant to put a hide box. But I'd had pill bugs in the one so I covered the whole thing at the bottom with moss... The kind you'd use in a lay box...
I'd thought about taking it out but caught her one day digging around in it and felt too bad to do it.
I can probably squeeze a humid hide in there no problem though. You think she'd use it? I still mist though as the pill bugs need it, but I'm totally open to the idea if it's something I should do.


That's what I thought. Hell, I even contemplated it like, maaaaaaybe I could put one in? But they live upstairs where it gets pretty warm. With the A/C, the room will be 75 but the tanks with the humidity will get about 78?
That's why I don't think it good for me to put a light on at all. I mean, sure the basking spot will be 90, but then the whole cage will be heated up and well...
They've seriously been thriving as is. I've no problem doing more if needed but it seems pointless to put a basking light in now when they're asleep all day.
(Let me correct myself. The female sleeps all day. The male seems to come out a smidge early. He's up right now actually. Female still asleep though, she probably won't get up and moving till' around a couple more hours later.)



Yeah, that's what I'm thinking.
Been calling around actually trying to find a vet he actually doesn't work at.
I found one where they have 2 herp vets, but one is him.
Never thought it'd be this tricky really...
If not because this guy is throwing me off. But atleast for a second opinion...

 

[RyoDai89]

No! Not Boomie thank god! It's the newest leo.
She's in another separate part of the house. We all went through alot getting her back to where she is. So we make damn sure we use our own separate stuff for her.
I think everyone is aware she's a special case so, she gets fed insects separate from the others. And if they do bring her out, she gets 'brought out first' and only after we see them wash their hands.
I mostly take her out myself though but no, we keep her far away from all the others.
(She's also not mine like the cresteds were. So she stays downstairs.)

Whom, btw! Is doing amazing! Been eating crickets now and haven't had to use carnivore care in a while!
Also wanted to let you know we bought that JumpStart thermostat for both like you'd mentioned. Now I know why that one is way better. You literally just set the time, and don't have to constantly keep watch or fiddle with the dial.
We still keep and eye on it, and use probes along with the one it has on it but yeah, definitely worth the money spent. Definitely relieves the headache the other one gave me.


The poop was a little soft, but it was like, neon green in color. Not like, kiiiinda green, but imo I was like holy crap. Not cool.
Made the appointment as soon as I saw it.

He did the fecal but literally said before giving us the results that he didn't get much stool from the leo.
(I'd had a stool sample he did right before we got there but the vet wanted to try to get one straight outta him so we let him.)
He said he checked for parasites and bacteria and said everything looked normal, nothing out of place.
The conversation went exactly like this:

Him- 'Everything appears to be normal. No signs of any parasites or bacteria. Not an overload of the sort which is what one would look at with green poop...'

Me- 'So, if it's not parasites, do you know maybe what's making it green?'

Him- 'Well usually an over abundance of parasites or bacteria will turn it green... :goes on a long rant:'

Me- 'So if he doesn't have either one, any ideas why it'd be green...'


Him- 'Well the only thing that turns poop green is bacteria or parasites... :rants some more:'


Me- But he doesn't have those...


Him- 'No, he seems pretty healthy in that department.'


Me- 'So if he's not got either... is there anything else that might be the cause...?'

Him- 'Well, yeah, uh, hm, let's see... the only thing I can think of is parasites or bacteria causing it-'

(had to cut in by now because he just kept repeating the same thing but seeming more and more confused...)

Me- 'Yea, so, if you say he has neither, what could be making it green other than that...'

Him- 'Well, I'm thinking it's green because of either parasites or bacteria...'

Me- '...'

Him- 'But he doesn't appear to have any so he appears normal...'


Me- 'But you saw the poop was green right..?'

Him- Yeah, I did. Usually it's parasites or bacteria but he doesn't have any which seems odd...

(by now I'm just getting annoyed and confused. He seemed to be talking more to himself than to us.)

Him- 'What else are you feeding him?'

Me- :list all the things:

Him- 'Must be the hornworms then. Depending on what the hornworms eat the can either be grren or blue (or something he said) so that's likely the cause as it appears he's normal in all other aspects.
...
Yeah, I'm gonna go with hornworms.

...
There was more talk. He said also up the calcium just in case (how I don't know, we dust everything but I guess he meant more of the calcium and less of the Nutrobal?)
Been just giving him carnivore care once and a while to help him gain weight back...
But other than that? He's totally okay. He eats fine. Walks around fine. Is active. Will come out and watch me from his cage.
This thing is probably the most tame reptile I've ever seen. You can put your hand in and no lie, he'll walk right in and wait. Expecting to be picked up so he can walk around on the floor.

But green poop. I know that's not normal. He gave us a list of things to do... fecal, x-ray, blood test.
I was SO sure it'd be parasites or something... it would make sense.
No idea why it's green. The only thing I can think of is maybe he didn't get enough poop the first go around.
After I get everything else situated, I have half a mind to get another test done somewhere else. Just to know whether or not he has something. I hate thinking in the back of my mind that the lack of stool meant he didn't see anything...

Definitely looking for another vet.
He might have been right about Boomie but soooomething is going on with the other clearly.
I mean, looking at the guy's bio on the vet's site, you'd think he was an awesome herp vet!
Despite doing birds too, it says he was president of his club for reptile vet care. Alllllll this stuff on what he's done for reptiles and their care. Has some of his own... but yikes like, talk about getting mixed signals.

 

[Aimless]

bear in mind that remaining bits of food in dishes that are fed to feeder insects mean that any quarantine you may have attempted is almost completely wasted. if I were you, I would add no animals to your little collection for at least 6 months; if it is something like crypto, it can have a very long incubation period. symptoms can be delayed, cyclic, and stress-related.

Pseudomonas is a pretty common bacteria in the environment that can cause infections is injured/sick/immunocompromised animals, and it's also often green (depending on the strain) and can have a weird sweetish odor.

 

[RyoDai89]

Really...? :sad:
I don't mix the CGD in the little disposable containers and then give it to the crickets or other geckos...
I mix the CGD in a separate bowel/cup. Then I divided it between the three cresteds in their little disposable cups.
I give the left over CGD, that's still in the bowel, to the crickets on a piece of cut up cardboard or plate. And then wash the cup/bowl out. Right after.
I was told to do it that way, mixing it into a bowel and then distributing it in cups, for quarantine purposes... So that nothing touches any of the other's stuff... even the crickets.
That's what the breeder I talked to did, but I suppose there are other ways...?



Trust me, I've no intention of getting anything for a very long time .
I might just be done with reptiles as far as that kinda thing goes and just stick with my snakes. (There in a totally separate house and everything.)
The anoles were a gift a long long time ago (one was actually! I think I actually bought the other one!)... The leo was bought for my sis, the other given to her since the cousin couldn't take care of it anymore...
The cresteds were mine, I wanted a reptile too but something easy. Looked into cresteds and bought myself one. Then I was given 2 as a gift (which I'd no idea about. Wasn't ready to house 3 at the time.)
But yeah, had reptiles for years throughout my life and never have I had something go on like this...

Would that be found in a fecal?
I'd assumed he'd look at everything, but is it possible he missed something?


(Also! Just recently talked to a lady who's kept cresteds for years... She seems convinced that- while she can't say for certain if it's at all related to the leo and anoles, she thinks there was something wrong with the little guy from day one. Showed her pictures, explained that he did eat (especially the crickets) but never grew at all... And the fact that the tail was so thin, it didn't even match up with it's proportions... she thinks there was something wrong from the get go. She too is waiting for results. She won't say what she thinks it might be, but even with the pictures of it looking healthy, before it looked bad, she says for a gecko 6 months old it shouldn't still look the way it does...)

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Your small crestie's lack of growth could have been genetic.

How fresh was the first green fecal sample? Did your vet grow a special culture on it? That's required to check for certain problems.

I'd repeat the green feces fecal at another vet's.

Here's how my exotics vet recommends collecting a stool sample:

1. Place a piece of clean plastic where your leo usually poops. If your gecko poops somewhere else, take the poop to the vet anyway. Some poop is better than no poop!
3. As soon as your gecko has passed some poop and urates, but without physically touching the sample, place the feces and urates directly onto a clean plastic bottle cap. (Vet has fecal sample containers if you can stop by first.)
5. Then place the bottle cap with fecal sample directly into a plastic ziploc bag. (Do NOT use paper towels or newspaper because those will absorb some of the feces necessary for a proper culture.)
7. Refrigerate this sample...unless you are taking the sample to your vet immediately. Do NOT freeze it.
9. Keep the sample cool enroute to the vet.
11. Take this fecal sample to your vet within 24 hours of collecting...the sooner the better!

[There are two types of fecals: fecal float and direct smear tests. For geckos, ask the vet whether both tests should be run.]

 

[RyoDai89]

She said that could be possible too. It being genetic...
I still wonder though... 6 months later... would I have ended up here regardless if it is genetic..?


We brought one with us (we'd ripped a sandwich bag in half for him to poop on so it was really fresh.) that he did while we were on our way out. I mean literally 2-3 minutes before I packed him up in the carrier.
But he wanted to try to get some straight out of him. So, he took him back to the back... I think he gave him an enema or something. And an hour later he came back with the gecko and told us he got a little bit out of him.
Never really went into specifics of what he did other than he didn't see anything abnormal...

He said hornworms, but now, see... I stopped giving him hornworms to see if it was just that. He's been eating only crickets and mealworms now and it's still green. Not as bright. Not the neon color. But it's still clearly there.
And he's been pooping alot so, if it was hornworms that should have been gone by now right?


I think that's what we're gonna do.
If they too don't find anything them I'm at a loss.



I can't remember if he did a 'fecal float' or a 'smear'... I remember him talking about them before the test, when we were deciding which tests to do... but I don't remember him ever telling us what he did as far as the sample went, just what he found (or didn't find).

Think maybe it'd be worth a blood test too..?
They're kinda costly, but you think that if nothing is found in the stool sample a blood test should be done?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I'd do a complete fecal first. Explain to the new vet what you've already done.

 

[RyoDai89]

So, we got the results...

And according to him it's 'unknown' to the 'cause' of death.
He told us one thing over the phone, and on the paper we were given (had to actually ask for it) it says a totally other thing...

And all it says is Necropsy so I'm unsure all of what was done other than checking organs and stool sample...


Over the phone, he said that over-all, despite him being very skinny and his tail rather thin... Everything looked 'normal'.
Organs appeared fine.
No abnormalities except for one thing.
Bacteria.

No mites were found, but said his bacteria 'levels' were very abnormal. But also said that that could be caused by his death. That after he died (confirmed that it was a boy. Which I'd actually thought because I'd swore I'd seen pores through the jewelry loupe thing.), his bacteria levels could have 'exploded' in many ways... Some outnumbering others after he passed.

All in all, he thinks it was lack of calcium.
Said that possible lack of UVB light or the like caused him to have calcium deficiency.
Which was odd because he ate the exact same things as the other two...
And we'd dusted the crickets which he thoroughly enjoyed so...

Also! I want to add. I didn't give him as many insects as the others because I wanted him to eat more of the Pangea...
I'd personally never seen him eat on his own.. and tried to stop spoon feeding it to him so he wouldn't rely on that...
He also mentioned he could have starved?
But I'd seen him all over his tiny little plastic shoe box? Surely he could have found the food right?
(And it's a small one. Don't know the exact size but it was smaller than a 5 gallon tank...)


Now! On the paper we got back!
We never got to talk to the vet, so, I have literally NO idea what any of this means...
We DID however, find another herp vet! Whom we'll be talking to tomorrow and hopefully they can help us what the stuff on the paper means aswell... not just a second opinion on everything...


So, on the paper...
It says-

> no intracoelomic adipose tissue present (no idea if that's good or bad... maybe it means something like cancer?)

> no gross abnormalities to organs, though, entire GI tract was filled with cream-colored soft mucoid tissue from cloaca up through the back of throat...
(I WAS spoon feeding him some pangea before he died... before it was probably obvious he was gonna die. He licked it up but... is that what that is, or something else entirely..?)

> lungs pink/air filled

> slightly pale liver. but no masses or mottled appearence

> emaciation, owner described signs of hypocalcemia (does that mean when he was talking about it being clacium related? I'd never mention anything on calcium myself but maybe he's saying what I desccribed was calcium related...?


> fecal direct - NSF
fecal gm stain - (uniform population of gram negative cocci (again, don't know what that means... he said abnormal bacteria on the phone but this is what's written on the paper..?)

And that's pretty much it...
He just went into length about it having to be calcium related.
When we talked about the weird walk and twist it did, he said the back end would show signs first for lack of calcium...
But his tail was straight... No signs anywhere before for something calcium related... It didn't even look like he was walking odd do to something like that. Only that it looked like either he'd completely destroyed his back, or that he was trying to avoid pain from his 'insides'...

Couldn't tell me what the to lump like things were either.


We plan on asking the vet about everything... both the care for cresteds, this paper, and the leo's health too.
I have his little body now. I doubt anything else can be dome with it, so I'm planning to finally bury him tomorrow...

Thoughts? Anyone know what the stuff on the paper means..?
Is there something else I should do as far as he goes or, is it safe to close the book and just try to keep my eye on the others and hopefully what ever is going on gets figured out...?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Over the phone, he said that over-all, despite him being very skinny and his tail rather thin... Everything looked 'normal'.
Organs appeared fine.
No abnormalities except for one thing.
Bacteria.

No mites were found, but said his bacteria 'levels' were very abnormal. But also said that that could be caused by his death. That after he died (confirmed that it was a boy

We never got to talk to the vet, so, I have literally NO idea what any of this means...
We DID however, find another herp vet! Whom we'll be talking to tomorrow and hopefully they can help us what the stuff on the paper means aswell... not just a second opinion on everything...

> fecal direct - NSF
fecal gm stain - (uniform population of gram negative cocci (again, don't know what that means... he said abnormal bacteria on the phone but this is what's written on the paper..?)

We plan on asking the vet about everything... both the care for cresteds, this paper, and the leo's health too.
I have his little body now. I doubt anything else can be dome with it, so I'm planning to finally bury him tomorrow...

Thoughts? Anyone know what the stuff on the paper means..?
Is there something else I should do as far as he goes or, is it safe to close the book and just try to keep my eye on the others and hopefully what ever is going on gets figured out...?

Bacteria after death: How soon after he died did you bring this gecko to the vet for a necropsy? Did you refrigerate, but not freeze him, in the meantime?

Ask either vet to write down exactly what the necropsy findings mean in layman's terms right now. That way you'll have something better than memory to read. It's really stressful when a gecko dies. Then the vet tells us things, and sometimes starts repeating himself for whatever reason.

Bacteria can cause death if left untreated. Hopefully your new vet will further test the green feces.

Before you visit the new vet, write down the questions and issues you are having. That really helps a discussion stay focused.

I'm glad that you have his wee body now. It's time to bury him. May he rest in peace.

Here's a rose for you all: @}--;- -

 

[RyoDai89]

He died at around 1:00 PM (that's when I found him though, after I got off work.), the vet appointment was at 6, but we took him over for the Necropsy at 4PM...
(but he also sat in the fridge over-night we're told. We dropped him off Tuesday. But he didn't get to the necropsy till' yesterday, Thursday afternoon...)

Yeah, I'm hoping the other vet can kinda tell us what this all means on the paper atleast.
I could call the guy that did the Necropsy again, but he's in surgery till' 1PM and there's no way of know when he can get back to us.


Yeah, we called yesterday and told them we wanted to speak to one of their herp vets. Said we wanted to ask some questions before we ever make an appointment.
They're gonna set some time aside for us to call today so... hopefully by asking some certain questions we can see if this person is worth going to now... Or if we need to keep looking.


Ah, thanx :sad:
Appreciate it! Very much so!!

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

He died at around 1:00 PM (that's when I found him though, after I got off work.), the vet appointment was at 6, but we took him over for the Necropsy at 4PM...
(but he also sat in the fridge over-night we're told. We dropped him off Tuesday. But he didn't get to the necropsy till' yesterday, Thursday afternoon...)

Yeah, I'm hoping the other vet can kinda tell us what this all means on the paper atleast.
I could call the guy that did the Necropsy again, but he's in surgery till' 1PM and there's no way of know when he can get back to us.


Yeah, we called yesterday and told them we wanted to speak to one of their herp vets. Said we wanted to ask some questions before we ever make an appointment.
They're gonna set some time aside for us to call today so... hopefully by asking some certain questions we can see if this person is worth going to now... Or if we need to keep looking.


Ah, thanx :sad:
Appreciate it! Very much so!!

:sorry: too.

Between 1-4 PM after he died did you guys refrigerate him? I'm trying to see how likely more bacteria would be after he died. Once the vet got the body, it should be placed in formalin, a preservative.

Ask the first vet's office for a written explanation of the necropsy results in layman's terms too. Hopefully the second vet will be much better.

 

[RyoDai89]

Yeah, that's the first thing we did.
He told us though the it'd been sitting in their fridge from the time we dropped him off. 'Till he did the necropsy.
No idea one way or the other if he preserved it any other way other than that.
If maybe he did and it was also in a fridge.
All he said was, due to being in the fridge, the bacteria could have outnumbered others and what have you then...


Called the vet... asked if we could pick up a report that's in a more simplistic form... (I'd said 'layman's terms' like you mentioned. Person with me then replied '- in a way we more understand'. This was all on speaker so more than one could hear, like when we got the initial report over the phone.)
He just said he could just tell us what each thing meant, we could write it down...
Couldn't even go through the list of what we didn't understand. He just cut us off with ums, hms, and the like. Just saying exactly what he'd told us over the phone (even the saaaame story we've heard now like, ten times...) before we got the report on paper.

Still don't know what any of these words mean now.
Do you think it's at all possible the other vet will know what he's saying... I mean, I understand they probably say/use certain terms for certain things and the other vet might not really know what it is exactly he put on the paper and why... them being two totally different vets/people.
But I almost feel like it was all a waste now. Still on the fence of what it is exactly he had. And if I should be concerned for the others...
I mean, it sounds like bacteria? I don't understand how it could be calcium- but then again, like I said, he'd always been so tiny and skinny since we got him...
Maybe he'd always had a problem digesting calcium and it was too late? (I doubt it.)
And if it's bacteria, is that contagious too?
I find it realllllly weird that, he finds supposedly 'abnormal' amounts of bacteria in the little guy and yet the leo we took in is still pooping green but nothing was found in his fecal test...

 

[RyoDai89]

UPDATE!!!!!!!!

Just wanted to give an update here... granted I should have done so sooner but lost track of time.


We've since found another vet.
All animals are doing well again, gaining weight again. (New vet said it might have been caused by us turning the A/C back on and to give the one time. To not feed any carnivore care and keep offering insects... all is well actually. All it took was patience I suppose...)

AND as for the green poop... it's just, gone. Got another test, no parasites or bacteria... but she said whatever caused it he could have 'passed'... not passed by poop per se but 'gotten better' by itself as tests show nothing negative.
Either way, it's poop is completely normal. One day it just stopped and has been 'perfect' ever since.


As for the Crested Gecko we'd lost.
While it's been awhile and I can't remember all that she said, according to her he was simply 'destined' to live a 'short' life.
According to her she believes something was 'abnormal' from the point we got him... because according to her he looked a tad 'abnormal'.
Whether it be inbreeding or 'neurological' she can't say for certain but whatever the cause- doubts it had anything to do with the care either I, or the pet store itself provided.
She can't say for certain she can rule out it was ever bacteria... seemed to agree it was possible the bacteria grew over night after it's death...
But said that there were abnormalities in the size of it and sizes of it's proportions..? Mentioned that while she can't take a 'look inside' now, said she was positive that... based on it's age, it's 'organs' were likely 'abnormal' as well but could only guess. Said she'd seen stuff like it before but again, could only guess.
She basically said, and I'd even had pics when he was still alive to compare, that he did look a tad 'off'. And while it's too late to officially tell, she said she was fairly confident that for his age he looked very 'abnormal' even in the pictures I had...

Still left with questions but, I think I can pretty much close the book on this one.
I've since started other projects so... for now, as far as these guys go I think I'll just continue enjoying them as pets.
I've put in far too much money now on setups anyways (tryyyyying to figure out how to setup a waterfall currently but am worried about 'gross stuff' building up in them.)

So, yeah, think I'm just gonna go all out on their exo terras, setting them up 'nicely' instead, and just stick to what I know best.