Loose substrates for leos question

[JTB]

Hiya! My first post on this forum. I know this'll probably open up a big can of worms, so I'm going to say something BEFORE you read further:

I don't want anyone to reply saying about the negativity of have a particulate substrate unless they THEMSELVES (not somebody they knew of) have experienced something, basically telling me about impaction even though they have never experienced it.

Right then! Now that's out of the way, I'll get going!

So, a few months ago I moved Cleo, my female wild type leopard gecko into a medium low Exo Terra (60X45x30cm, LxDxH) and I am currently using an Exo Terra Sand Mat as substrate. It looks good, but the problem I have is that it gets stained by poo really easily and I am not prepared to spend £10 every two months just on substrate!

So instead, I am thinking about alternative substrates. Lino and tiles are out of the question as the heat mat will be underneath and I think lino will block the heat whereas I might crack the glass if I were to drop a tile. I am thinking about mixing Arcadia Earth Mix with sand to make a scrub-land-esque terrain, or using coco fibre/Eco Earth instead of the Earth Mix seeing as it's quite expensive to not grow live plants in it. Only problem with that is apparently dry coco fibre is very dusty? I am also considering using ProRep's Leo Life.

Anyways, could I please have some pictures of what you do and how does anybody rate the Leo Life? Thanks!

 

[Merianna]

I have not had impaction of my own personal leo, but with the geckos I have worked with at my animal shelter. People will bring their geckos here with impactions, severe bloated tummies and stick thin tails. Some die, you open them up for a necropsy, low and behold in the intestine you find a plethora of clumped sand and exoskeleton parts or something. And so it goes.. we could have an argument for months on this thread of people telling you how to care for your gecko, and you could state that you knew how and the sand wasn't hurting your gecko. ( I know you really care for your gecko though, so don't get me wrong )
Nevertheless, I use paper towels as substrate since they are easy to clean and change them every couple of days. I'd recommend measuring your tank and putting tile into it, reptile carpet, and if you really insist on using a looser substrate, find out were you can get Leo Life.
Impaction is really on the top of everyone's mind simply because there is a large risk of it, normally a gecko will not get impacted just because it is housed in sand, but there are other errors in the husbandry occurring as well, and none of us are perfect, which is why it is better to lower your chances of any risks.

 

[mecoat]

Hi

I use a combination substrate - mainly corn cob. I also use a plastic chopping board (easy to clean), a glass chopping board (elevated with heat mat attached, provides a second layer so more space and Daff's favourite hide), and sometimes coconut husk.

Daff likes to be able to dig. It's not too deep so he's still on a firm surface, but he can dig a bit, clear it down to the wood, or not as he chooses.

He does like the coconut husk (When he was boarding at a friends while I was on holiday, she'd set up a spare viv for him, but had run out of the small wood chips she usually uses, so she'd done half and half wood chips and coconut. We were very surprised when I came to fetch him, lifted his hide and found he'd lined it with the coconut husk. He must have carried each piece across from the other side of the viv individually by mouth as there was no trail of bits)

I'll try to post pics later if you want

 

[mecoat]

Should also have said, the pieces of corn cob and coconut husk are all large enough that Daff knows if he's picked one up instead of dinner and spits them back out again. He's not stupid even if he is Pumpkin Positive.

 

[JTB]

Merianna -
I definitely get what you mean. However, even from what you said, it points to the substrate being a secondary problem. I quote 'low and behold in the intestine you find a plethora of clumped sand and exoskeleton'. The part about exoskeleton tells me either one or two things:
The geckos had incorrect heat and so could not digest properly
The food items being offered were too large
Now, this isn't to say that all impaction occurs because of low heat, but it does help confirm my suspicion that other factors are to blame rather than the substrate alone.

As for tiles, I did say why I wouldn't use them in my original post - for fear of breaking the glass, as it's an Exo Terra Terrarium. As for carpet, I can't really use that because Cleo is a bit daft in that she tends to bite not quite on target and I'd be worried about her getting teeth caught. Some will say that she could also miss prey and get a mouth full of sand, but she doesn't really bite the floor, more right above it, so a loose fibre could cause an issue. I also don't like the look of carpet, it looks fake

Thanks for replying

 

[JTB]

mecoat -
I've never heard of corn cob bedding before, apart from that mold can grow in it if it becomes damp? How does the coconut husk behave when dry? I'd mix that stuff with sand to make substrate, but some have said it's horrible and dusty unless you wet it.

A picture would be nice

 

[JTB]

I also thought best to add that at the minute, I feed Cleo locusts as her main diet alongside morio worms, meal worms and the occasional wax worm. Food is given every 2 or 3 days and I have a dusting schedule of 5:2 pure calcium to calcium with D3. This might be changing to 5:0 though, as I am probably going to get UVB lighting as it's more natural.

 

[mecoat]

Hi

The coconut husk I use is actual pieces of coconut hust (not the blocks). It's sold in bags, like this: https://www.amazon.co.uk/Exoterra-C...8&qid=1470915731&sr=8-6&keywords=coconut+husk .

I've only once had the corn cob go funny (i spilled quite a bit of water one time, didn't mop any up, and then put the water bowl on top, so I did quite a few stupid things). Since then, I just dab at any spills with a paper towel, getting the worst of the water off, and make sure that the water bowl isn't put on top of that area (the water bowl currently lives on the plastic chopping board), no problems since. This is the kind of corn cob I use : https://www.amazon.co.uk/ProRep-Cor...=UTF8&qid=1470916002&sr=8-4&keywords=corn+cob

You should be able to look at my viv on my borad about making my viv : http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...n-vivarium-removable-floor-easy-cleaning.html
Most recent pics obviously at the end, there has been quite a few changes since the start.

One benefit of a loose substrate is that you can just scoop out the poo and the surrounding substrate (I've made a mini pooper-scooper from a food scood, I just cut off the front end).

 

[Zux]

Hi JTB,

You probably know me as Shane on youtube, we talked a lot, its good to see you here mate.


You no doubt know my feelings on loose substrates by now and how they are greatly beneficial to the Gecko as-long as your husbandry is up to standard, which yours is. My advice would be to go for what you planned, Arcadia Earth mix combined with either a finely washed play-sand or even Leo-Life works excellently when mixed also. You also have to option of pure Leo Life, though I haven't used this personally, I feel a mix woks best and certainly promotes Bio-Activity far more readily. When mixed in a 60/40 ratio this will provide an excellent consistency for the Gecko to freely and comfortably run around and eat, but also allow it to dig, forage and generally behave naturally wherever it likes.

There is no benefit to things like corn-cob or any other kind of pelleted substrate, the entire point of providing a loose/semi-loose substrate is that they can exhibit natural behaviors like digging and foraging for food etc. All of my Geckos have clean-up crews which live with them and clean the substrate/environment. The Geckos poop, cover it themselves with the substrate and the cleanup crews do the rest. The Geckos love to and can safely predate on any of these inverts with essentially no risk to themselves unless they had a heavy parasitic load to begin with, which any healthy Gecko will not.

Avoid things like Eco-Earth or pure sand of any kind, not because its going to harm them, but because much like the corn-cob etc it simply affords them none of the benefits which should be the reason the substrate is loose in the first place. They also seem to not enjoy the alien sensation of walking on a surface they sink into and cannot gain traction on so the only thing it benefits is the keeper.

It is extremely important for at least the reasonably experienced keepers to attempt to get out of this hyper-cautious mindset surrounding loose substrates and the notion that anything from the outside will kill their pet, its very outdated thinking and prevents the hobby moving forward frankly.

 

[JTB]

Hello Shane, I didn't expect that you'd use this forum! Nice to see you!

Do you use a similar mix? I assume you do from what you say, but I'd like a picture if that's possible so I can see what I'll be going for !

Bioactive is something I have indeed thought about greatly. My only concerns with trying it are that I am not sure how live plants would work for me and whether I could keep the humidity down whilst simultaneously create damp regions for spring tails and worms to reside. Cam (JFCM) and I were recently discussing his corn's bioactive setup that hasn't got any live plants and he says keeping a corner moist isn't so hard in reality. If you can do it without the live plants then I think it's something I'll attempt!

Anyway, I think I know what substrate I'm going for now at least, so my main query is put to rest. Thanks!

 

[JTB]

PS, What is that morph as you profile picture? Never seen anything quite like it!

 

[Zux]

Hey again,

Yea I tend to avoid some communities but this is (with few exceptions) a great one !

I do indeed use that mix and in fact Arcadia products almost exclusively where I can, they tend to be ahead of the curve in terms of innovation and pushing the hubby forward. I use Earth Mix combined with fine sand and clay for my Leopard Geckos. I'll see what I can do regarding pictures.

Regarding Bio-Activity there are many many options out there now and it can work even for very aid setups, but generally speaking I do not allow humidity to drop sub 40% for any of my Gecko species (for many reasons I can explain further if you wish), including Leos.

With soil humidity being kept at an average of about 60% even spring-tails thrive within the damper areas and Isopods thrive throughout, if you can include those two in any setup you're set, they are the real workhorses of Bio-Activity. I supplement that with a couple of Mealworm Beetles and Superworm Beetles within each setup.

Once custodian populations establish waste and bacteria will be recycled within the system within 24 hours, further supporting growth of the succulents like Aloe I have planted there. You can sustain them and help them to boom with Arcadia - Custodian Fuel also, it makes my spring-tail populations truly explode.

Not having plants wont hold you back at all right now, even the largest wastes from my Bearded Dragon dissapear in a matter of hours and I haven't planted the succulents yet !


Hopefully that was helpful, f you need anything cleared up, or have any other questions, you know where to find me !



PS: I thought I should mention, since moving to large bio-active enclosures, providing appropriate UVB lighting and eliminating pretty much all synthetic supplementation my Geckos have really become different animals. They have brighter colors, are far more active, have vastly improved appetites and feeding behaviors and are generally living much more enriched lives.

Housing them on solid, featureless flooring, providing little to no natural light, be it UVA or UVB and cleaning everything once a week worked great for me when I was new to the hobby and not experienced enough to recognize the signs of a healthy or unhealthy animal, but I can say for sure, that now, I will pesonally never house any Reptile in any form of sterile enclosure again.

 

[Zux]

PS, What is that morph as you profile picture? Never seen anything quite like it!

That is a 'Lemon Frost', they wont be available to the public for some time unfortunately, but they really are beautiful I think !

 

[JTB]

Well, I think I know what I am planning now! Just got to wait until Swell gets more stock of spring tails and woodlice .

I have always believed the leopard geckos prefer it a bit moister than people say, as mine almost exclusively uses hides filled with damp sphagnum moss. Perhaps moss grows in the rock networks that they hide in in the wild, or maybe the like it damper because of the monsoons that occur in their range - who knows? It's a great shame that so little is known about them.

Do you need a drainage layer? I assume not because the substrate won't get permanently soaked like in rain forest setups, but I thought it beneficial to ask. If so, it will leave going bio out of the question for the minute because I'm using a heatmat and I think that the gap will block out most of the heat.

As for becoming more active and changing behaviour, I'm already partially with you. Since getting an LED light, I have witnessed basking on multiple occasions and this is why I'm thinking of swapping to UVB if I can!

I've never heard of a lemon frost before, looks epic! My favourites are wild types, bandits, snows and bell albinos, but this one's gotta be ranked highly from what I'm seeing so far!

 

[Zux]

The humidity of the locations they spend their days in may well have something to do with that, I imagine there is more air humidity at night also, a change which they dont experience in captivity.

You dont need a drainage layer, thankfully, no. Regarding Isopods / Springtails, I will send you a PM with details of better people to purchase those from tonight, you can easily (and safely) collect Isopods from any garden in the UK however, then you can set up a little culture to top up your numbers as needed, or to add right in if you dont use pesticides in your garden. The two species most commonly found in the UK do much better in warmer / drier setups than the tropical species believe it or not.

 

[JTB]

Awesome! I would probably just use insects that I bought and maybe keep a little pot of them on the side to prosper, I woudn't want to risk bringing anything in and harming my gecko, even if the risk is very small. I also wouldn't want them escaping into the house - in fact I don't actually know if I'd be allowed to go bio for that very reason. Getting away with springtails would be pretty easy but woodlice are a different factor (not that I mind, but other residents of the house might....)!

 

[JTB]

I was just thinking, in a couple of months I am 99% going to get a crested gecko and maybe it would be better to go bio with that as my first time doing it? I know that these fellers are very commonly kept this way nowadays and perhaps it would be easier as my first endeavor? I'd still get the earth mix + sand sub going and UVB light if I can, but maybe leave off bio for a while. Then if for whatever reason I was having a problem with loose substrate (not that I imagine that there will be any) it wouldn't be a chore to get rid of.

 

[Zux]

It wont make it easier or harder to do with the Leo or Crestie fist, thats totally up to you.

Both Woodlice and Springtails will die without some humidity in their soil, they actually breath using modified gills on their legs/feet and quickly desiccate in UK homes, so no worries there.

 

[JTB]

Really? I thought they would have just had the generic insect spiracles, but then again they aren't insects! I'm not too certain they'd die off though, because I find them sometimes in the house (they aren't everywhere, one or two just seem to appear every few months).

I was always under the impression humid habitats were easier to convert to bioactive because of, well, the humidity. Maybe not, then.

I at least know that whatever I decide to do I'm not going to rush it!

 

[Zux]

They can survive for a time, but they have no will to escape their suitable habitats for your home and to be honest unless you have ventilation holes low down, they have no chance of doing so anyway, they cannot climb anything smooth sided.

The definition of bio-activity revolves around micro-fauna which help break down the apex predators wastes and return it to the soil, its a common misconception that this must only be possible in humid/tropical enclosures borne of the fact the first bio-active enclosures were of this nature.

Basically its like this, if there are bugs you choose to have living there which eat the poop, its a bio-active enclosure. Arid vs Humid doesn't come into it really, you just need to know which bugs will work for the species in question.

Hope that helped.