Is my gut-load recipe ok?

Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Digs said:
I was using watering crystals at the time that my feeders wouldn't eat. Then I went to using vegetables and fruits as a watering source, now I use your method with the paper towel. I also used a pepper grind to crush the pellets at first but it came out as hard crumbles so it was hard for the insects to eat. I use a cheap blender instead and the pellets come out more like a powder. The insects have been able to eat dry food since then :).

I think I'm going to find more scientific studies on gut-loading to decide what to use. I know I can simply just use the bearded dragon food and be done but I have learned some interesting things I didn't know before from the scientific studies I've found and I would like to research more. I'll look into what labs I can send any recipe I make to.

Thank you so much for your great advice I will keep it in mind while I do my research. :biggrin:
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You're welcome, Digs. I hope you find just the right blend of ingredients.

After 10 years my small Krups coffee bean grinder gave out. :idea:: Last summer I upgraded to a larger Krups burr grinder.
 
Digs

Digs

Member
I have found T-Rex cricket food calcium plus, I hear that it's the only gutload scientifically proven to gutload insects to a point where you might have to reduce or eliminate the use of multivitamins. I don't know if I can get a scientist or vet to help me adjust my supplementing schedule to avoid hypervitaminosis. I've heard that you have used this gutload before and I'm wondering if you know how I could supplement Mae if I were to use it. I'm also thinking about using Repashy's superload food as I've heard he/she worked with T-Rex but I don't know how much vitamin A or E is in the gutload.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Digs said:
I have found T-Rex cricket food calcium plus, I hear that it's the only gutload scientifically proven to gutload insects to a point where you might have to reduce or eliminate the use of multivitamins. I don't know if I can get a scientist or vet to help me adjust my supplementing schedule to avoid hypervitaminosis. I've heard that you have used this gutload before and I'm wondering if you know how I could supplement Mae if I were to use it. I'm also thinking about using Repashy's superload food as I've heard he/she worked with T-Rex but I don't know how much vitamin A or E is in the gutload.
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Quite frankly I'm getting dizzy. I've shared my best recommendations for Mae, but then you search for more.

I've ordered T-Rex Calcium Plus Food for Crickets, but never used it. In fact I have the bottle in hand right now! It expired May 2015. In case you haven't found it yet, here's another formal gutload for you ;): Mazuri Diet Hi-Ca Gut Loading formula. I never used it either. My Mazuri expired 8/31/18. As far as I know both these products are ONLY designed to be fed to insects short-term right before feeding off insects to geckos. Neither product is intended for long term insect nutrition. That's because they're super high in calcium. No veggies can be given during these 24-48 hours, because then the crickets would eat those and NOT the T-Rex or Mazuri. It's kinda like force feeding insects on purpose.

The directions for Mazuri are: "Use as the ONLY bedding and the ONLY food source for bug prey for 24 hours, then feed the prey to your pet. Offer water to bugs in a safe manner also. Keep at room temperature."

Instead of that formal gutloading procedure 24-48 hours prior to feeding the insects and worms off to our geckos, I prefer (and many other geckophiles do as well) to feed my insects a healthy diet 24/7.

I don't really think that either T-Rex or Mazuri would help Mae. Her MDB is early stage. Are you not seeing any improvement? Dec 30th is the time for the next 2 week update. I know you've shared videos I've not commented upon yet.

I totally admire your energy for research. If you use Zoo Med's supplements (Schedule 124 for now) and gutload Mae's bugs and worms with Zoo Med's Natural ADULT Bearded Dragon Food + high calcium, low phosphorus veggies (like collard greens, mustard greens, and turnip greens), Mae will thrive. You will then be feeding Mae healthy stuff 24/7. There's really NO need for T-Rex, Mazuri, or (Allen) Repashy's Superload Food.

I'll go to your other thread soon. Right now I suggest keeping to Schedule 124 until February 2nd -- 2 months after we began. Please continue to share video updates every 2 weeks. I believe baby steps are best. Easy does it. I believe that's better than shocking Mae's system.

I want Mae to get better too.
 
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Digs

Digs

Member
Elizabeth Freer said:
Quite frankly I'm getting dizzy. I've shared my best recommendations for Mae, but then you search for more.

I've ordered T-Rex Calcium Plus Food for Crickets, but never used it. In fact I have the bottle in hand right now! It expired May 2015. In case you haven't found it yet, here's another formal gutload for you ;): Mazuri Diet Hi-Ca Gut Loading formula. I never used it either. My Mazuri expired 8/31/18. As far as I know both these products are ONLY designed to be fed to insects short-term right before feeding off insects to geckos. Neither product is intended for long term insect nutrition. That's because they're super high in calcium. No veggies can be given during these 24-48 hours, because then the crickets would eat those and NOT the T-Rex or Mazuri. It's kinda like force feeding insects on purpose.

The directions for Mazuri are: "Use as the ONLY bedding and the ONLY food source for bug prey for 24 hours, then feed the prey to your pet. Offer water to bugs in a safe manner also. Keep at room temperature."

Instead of that formal gutloading procedure 24-48 hours prior to feeding the insects and worms off to our geckos, I prefer (and many other geckophiles do as well) to feed my insects a healthy diet 24/7.

I don't really think that either T-Rex or Mazuri would help Mae. Her MDB is early stage. Are you not seeing any improvement? Dec 30th is the time for the next 2 week update. I know you've shared videos I've not commented upon yet.

I totally admire your energy for research. If you use Zoo Med's supplements (Schedule 124 for now) and gutload Mae's bugs and worms with Zoo Med's Natural ADULT Bearded Dragon Food + high calcium, low phosphorus veggies (like collard greens, mustard greens, and turnip greens), Mae will thrive. You will then be feeding Mae healthy stuff 24/7. There's really NO need for T-Rex, Mazuri, or (Allen) Repashy's Superload Food.

I'll go to your other thread soon. Right now I suggest keeping to Schedule 124 until February 2nd -- 2 months after we began. Please continue to share video updates every 2 weeks. I believe baby steps are best. Easy does it. I believe that's better than shocking Mae's system.

I want Mae to get better too.
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I've seen that many zoos prefer Mazuri over other gutloads due to a study done to help improve mbd in their reptiles, caused by a gutload consisting of Tortoise food mixed with vegetables high in vitamin A rather than calcium. however the animal proteins in it scare me, I don't want the bugs producing Unnaturally high amounts of Uric Acid and correct me if I'm wrong animal proteins just make uric acid skyrocket compared to high amounts of plant proteins.I've found that Zoomed has 5,000 IU of vitamin A but I'm aiming for at least 10,000 IU of vitamin A and at least 50 IU of Vitamin E in the gutload. I get this from a study about altering nutrients in feeders and I'm also sort of using T- rex's nutrients as my benchmark :lol:.
Foods That I know of that reach one or both of these targeted levels of nutrients are:
Oxbow rabbit food
Eggland's best layer mini pellets ( I don't think it has DE based off of the ingredients)
Sun seed Vita Prima Suncription Chinchilla food ( nutrients come really close to the t-rex gutload.)
T-rex tortoise dry formula
Pretty Pets large tortoise food
Zupreem bird food
Encore Natural Layer Booster Daily Diet ( Uses Vitamin A acetate :D)
 
Digs

Digs

Member
Also I actually don't know what I'm looking for besides Mae being able to lift herself from the ground while walking or standing and not having twisty arms but if you think she's improving from her MBD then I do too :). I'm sort of stuck with the Idea of separating gut load from maintenance diet for the insects now. Scientific studies show that Gut loading for too long can sometimes make the vitamins ware off in the insects.
 
Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Digs said:
Also I actually don't know what I'm looking for besides Mae being able to lift herself from the ground while walking or standing and not having twisty arms but if you think she's improving from her MBD then I do too :). I'm sort of stuck with the Idea of separating gut load from maintenance diet for the insects now. Scientific studies show that Gut loading for too long can sometimes make the vitamins ware off in the insects.
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What do you mean: "vitamins (wear) off in the insects"?

When you shared the initial videos, Mae's left front arm was bending inwards. That's why I called her gait "lopsided". She was leaning to the left as she walked.

I don't know how long it takes for bone density changes to become permanent. I'm "all ears", if someone knows.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Digs: "I get this from a study about altering nutrients in feeders and I'm also sort of using T- rex's nutrients as my benchmark."
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Please link that study right here.


I use and highly recommend Zoo Med's Repti Calcium with D3 + Zoo Med's ReptiVite multivitamins without D3 (2 separate containers).

Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins without D3 (Link: https://zoomed.com/reptivite-without-d3/)
Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins with D3

  • vitamin D3: 22,907 IU/kg, 10,390 IU/pound
  • vitamin A acetate (retinol): 220,264 IU/kg
Both Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins contain these amounts of calcium carbonate and phosphorus:
  • calcium carbonate: 25.9-29% (OR 24.9-28% ?)
  • phosphorus: 10.6%
I prefer Zoo Med ReptiVite multivitamins, because they're chiefly multivitamins with a good dose of precipitated calcium carbonate, but without added protein, et cetera.
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+ vitamin A acetate in Zoo Med's Natural ADULT Bearded Dragon Food
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Digs

Digs

Member
Elizabeth Freer said:
What do you mean: "vitamins (wear) off in the insects"?

When you shared the initial videos, Mae's left front arm was bending inwards. That's why I called her gait "lopsided". She was leaning to the left as she walked.

I don't know how long it takes for bone density changes to become permanent. I'm "all ears", if someone knows.
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" However, other studies report the highest calcium content after 1 day compared to 2, 3, or 7 days (Dikeman et al., 2007). It has been reported that offering certain gut-loading diets longer than 2 days can reduce the initially increased calcium levels (Hunt-Coslik et al., 2009), which could be an effect of the palatability of the gut-loading diet (McComb, 2010)."

https://www.sciencedirect.com/topics/veterinary-science-and-veterinary-medicine/gut-loading
 
Digs

Digs

Member
I don't think I'm concerned about uric acid levels with Mazuri anymore. I'm reading that an ingredient called casein (milk protein) produces more uric acid in roaches than dog food. Cricket Crack contains skimmed milk which does contain casein in it. If that can be fed to feeder insects but still produce healthy reptiles then I don't see why I should be concerned about ingredients that produce less uric acid just as long as Mae is well hydrated and doesn't have any disease that would effect her ability to pass uric acid.

https://dubiaroachdepot.com/guidance/dubia-roaches-dietary-protein
 
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