Humide Hide or No?

[Embrace Calamity]

I've met a few people who've argued vehemently that leos can be kept just fine without humid hides. One person even stated that humid hides don't stay warm enough, negatively effect growth, color, health, etc., and can cause respiratory infections and eye problems.

Now I know the vast majority of people agree leos need humid hides, and that they prevent things like shedding issues and eye problems (I had a link from a vet stating this, but I'm afraid I've lost it).

I'm genuinely curious what y'all think. This is just to be a discussion - not an argument. What I do know about leos (which, in the grand scheme of things, isn't much) would lead me to believe that it's simply not a good idea to not have it. The one person who argued against their use also said that they check their geckos daily and remove any stuck shed immediately - which would lead me to believe that it's probably not working as "great" as they claim. However, as we all know, there are many different ways to do things. So, what does everyone else think on the matter? Yes? No? Possibly?

~Maggot

 

[Joey1]

You know I'm only an amateur at this but if I were to wrap my mind around the issue I'd say the humid hide makes sense - that it's ok to have... You've stated a number of times, and have stated very well, requirements for proper care: a minimum number of hides (3), ground temps air temps, enclosure requirements such as size, substrate, supplementing, diet, ect ect ect... Lets say for the sake of argument all are met well with no mistakes

Now humid hide vs no humid hide - is the humid hide placed properly near the warm/hot end? What is holding humidity in the hide? Moss, paper towel or something else? I read recently that the humidity from the moss could potentially cause respiratory issues (problem that the use of moss is the central issue), it convinced me to go back to lining it with paper towel as I originally had. . . Getting back to the issue is the humid hide being checked and cleaned regularly? If you clean the cage and ignore the hide that's like cleaning your home but with the intent to ignore cleaning 1 room... How long would you let the area fester before you clean it? And how humid is the area, is it being soaked or sprayed until being damp? What kind of water? Tap or other? I use purified water... Most cities have chlorine and other chemicals in tap water - it's argued to pose no threat to humans... But what is the danger of having these chemicals evaporated into an enclosure and being breathed in again and again by your pet gecko?

If your hide is soaked causing heavy humidity - causing labored breathing, if it isn't cleaned regularly with possible filth or dirt of some kind settling in, the possibility of chemicals in the humid air, unattended untreated by you the owner, with improper substrate as well - then yeah it can pose a threat

If you use paper towel cleaned as regularly as you clean the tank, dampened not soaked, just a few sprays makes enough humidity it doesnt need to feel like florida after a rain storm, use bottled or purified water of some sort, kept attended as well as the rest of the enclosure is, ect. Just monitor it... I think it would be fine, if its too much the LG will get up and walk right out

- that's just my opinion -

 

[cricket4u]

Maggot who told you this? People who house their geckos in tubs or people who live in states in which the humidity remains moderate or high for most part of the year?

The one person who argued against their use also said that they check their geckos daily and remove any stuck shed immediately - which would lead me to believe that it's probably not working as "great" as they claim.

This speaks for itself. First off all you should NOT be pulling off their shed or even needing to in the first place. What a way to make a gecko comfortable, pulling at his skin, having to soak, picking at their eyes.....:roll:

It amazes me how some people find excuses for poor husbandry. If you provide optimal husbandry, your gecko will not spend more time than necessary in the humidity hide. The humidity hide should also be cleaned at least once a week. It not only aids in shedding, but hydration as well. Our job is to provide as many options as possible, including varied humidity levels to choose from.

Not the URI!:roll: If it's that easy for them to develop a URI we would have heard of many cases from owners who own leos and live in states with moderate or high humidity. The majority of these people do not bother to use a dehumidifier.

I know deep inside you know the truth.

 

[acpart]

I think it's great to have a discussion about things that we have often taken for granted in gecko care (as in my temperature gradient discussion in another thread). I also think humid hides are important since they have many benefits and no risks. A humid hide provides another option and another micro climate so the gecko has a choice of the best place in a limited eco-system at different times. In my enclosures, non-breeding geckos have humid hides with paper towel substrates that are misted every 1-2 days (paper towel is changed when obviously soiled). Breeding geckos have humid hides with coco-fiber substrate that doubles as a lay box. I will say that some of my geckos do need some help shedding, primarily on the toes, even with a humid hide.

Aliza

 

[Embrace Calamity]

Maggot who told you this? People who house their geckos in tubs or people who live in states in which the humidity remains moderate or high for most part of the year?

The one person who argued against their use also said that they check their geckos daily and remove any stuck shed immediately - which would lead me to believe that it's probably not working as "great" as they claim.

This speaks for itself. First off all you should NOT be pulling off their shed or even needing to in the first place. What a way to make a gecko comfortable, pulling at his skin, having to soak, picking at their eyes.....:roll:

This person said they live in Colorado, where humidity is very low. I died a little inside. They appeared to be a business, so I'm going to assume they're breeders who keep them in tubs. They said when the gecko sheds, they just put in a wet paper towel. I believe the other person is a breeder as well, though I don't recall where they are located.

Not the URI!:roll: If it's that easy for them to develop a URI we would have heard of many cases from owners who own leos and live in states with moderate or high humidity. The majority of these people do not bother to use a dehumidifier.

I asked them if they had any literature regarding instances of humid hides causing RIs, but I haven't heard back yet. Obviously a gecko (or any other reptile, really) that spends all their time in extremely humid environments can develop RIs. Only time I've ever heard of this being an issue is when the entire enclosure is kept too humid (well, actually, I've never heard of high humidity causing an RI, since high humidity is usually something that needs to be intentionally achieved; the most common cause of RIs I've seen is temps being too low). Whether the humid hide would be a threat would ultimately depend on if the gecko would just leave if that became an issue.

I know deep inside you know the truth.

I know what I believe deep down inside to be the truth, but like I said, I'm really not that knowledgeable or experienced in the grand scheme of things, so I wanted to know what others who are more both things thought no the matter.

~Maggot

 

[Aellie]

What alternative is there, though? If there is no humid hide, the moisture has to come from somewhere. You can't watch your gecko 24/7 for signs of a coming shed. He/she is not going to wait for you to throw in paper towels or to soak him/her every time they need to shed. It is a personal act, not something the gecko wants to share with you. Soaking after a bad shed is definitely not ideal either. What else might you do? Making the entire tank humid seems like a bad idea, as does creating a humid section within the tank. If not in a hide of some sort, wouldn't that section dry up?

Even if some alternative seems to be working just fine, there may be some issues (dehydration, perhaps) that are not readily apparent.

 

[Joey1]

It's really all about cleanliness with a little common sense... The humid hides can be half-a**** (like not willing to change the towel - just re-wetting it over and over) you know not to leave toxic, loose, or questionable substrate in your entire tank so just apply the same logic (if you're using something different)... And it's easier form germs and things of that negative nature to settle, sit, and spread in a humid environment...

You know this all already

 

[Embrace Calamity]

What alternative is there, though? If there is no humid hide, the moisture has to come from somewhere. You can't watch your gecko 24/7 for signs of a coming shed. He/she is not going to wait for you to throw in paper towels or to soak him/her every time they need to shed. It is a personal act, not something the gecko wants to share with you. Soaking after a bad shed is definitely not ideal either. What else might you do? Making the entire tank humid seems like a bad idea, as does creating a humid section within the tank. If not in a hide of some sort, wouldn't that section dry up?

Even if some alternative seems to be working just fine, there may be some issues (dehydration, perhaps) that are not readily apparent.

Well I know of three people who believe in the no humid hide method. The one just puts in wet paper towel when the geckos begin shedding and then removes what doesn't come off on its own. The other one says they don't provide any method of humidity unless bad sheds occur (which they say does happen, and in that case, they just put in wet paper towel inside a hide). The other breeding place says to either just put in wet paper towels or spray the entire enclosure until the paper towel is wet (if they are kept on paper towels).

2 out of the 3 openly stated that this method has resulted in poor sheds, so I'm not sure why they feel this is a good idea, but I guess those are the methods they employ. I have to wonder if anyone uses them with actual success?

~Maggot

 

[Joey1]

What if you're not around when the gecko sheds, what if it has trouble, is there a point in which you can be too late to assist/help (then you may regret not having a humid hide which could have helped when you weren't there to) having one or not having one each has its pros and cons... Sometimes there's no great or even good choice, you may have to choose the lesser of two potentially bad choices :/

 

[aquamentus_11]

I always had a warm humid hide and still had to help pull shed off once in awhile. I always wondered how they do without in the wild.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I always had a warm humid hide and still had to help pull shed off once in awhile. I always wondered how they do without in the wild.

I know the two leading causes of problems shedding are humid hide issues and vitamin A problems (I've seen it a bunch of times with people using supplements without vitamin A). I've never known of any geckos that get both and still have shedding issues (with the exception of Enigmas, I believe), but I guess it's possible that there are some who just don't shed right with all the breeding we've done.

~Maggot

 

[Joey1]

People picture Afghanistan and neighboring countries to be all sand, so in turn people buy sand as substrate most areas are hard soil, rock, pebbles, and clay ( and yes sand )... People also picture desert and when they do they picture DRY... Humidity levels are not zero... I've been to the UAE and neighboring nations... Chance of rain in Dubai UAE is zero however humidity levels there around this time probably are averaging at 40-50%, in a single day it could jump from 30 to 90% and still there is zero chance of rain... Afghanistan during this time may be experiencing humidity levels from the high teens to 70 %. With zero chance of rain... The sun eats it all up, but like heat, moisture can be held in the ground which in turn supports insect life as well as small animals. . .

You can't mimick that climate... You can only accommodate to certain aspects... So making a humid but wet environment is not right because it shouldn't be wet ... Making a dry environment and attempting to keep levels humid enough - you can't ...

In the month of August Kabul Afghanistan averaged a temp of 39 oC/102 oF averaged a humidity level of 82% (in a desert atmosphere).

So LG experience humidity ... That's not the question... What you have to ask yourself is how can you recreate or accommodate that and sooner or later make a choice.

 

[Mama G]

I am a strong believer that humid hides are VERY important!!
These people who say they just remove the stuck shed. How painful that must be at times for the gecko!! I mean really, would they like it if someone pulled the loose skin off a sunburn? I realize its not Quite the same, but close enough IMO!!
Besides that, the gecko should be Eating its shed. They have taken that away from the geckos completely.

I personally provide a humid hide for ALL my leopards at ALL times!! Even hatchlings have the option to enter little humid hides. They get spot cleaned as soiled and completely cleaned regularly. I have never seen respiratory infection in any of my collection.

 

[cricket4u]

An article everyone may be interested in reading.

CLIMATE CLASSIFICATION OF PAKISTAN
http://www.balwois.com/balwois/administration/full_paper/ffp-1295.pdf

Very true Joey. Because of the desert thought, many are kept too dry.

 

[Thin Lizzy]

Well I know of three people who believe in the no humid hide method. The one just puts in wet paper towel when the geckos begin shedding and then removes what doesn't come off on its own. The other one says they don't provide any method of humidity unless bad sheds occur (which they say does happen, and in that case, they just put in wet paper towel inside a hide). The other breeding place says to either just put in wet paper towels or spray the entire enclosure until the paper towel is wet (if they are kept on paper towels).

2 out of the 3 openly stated that this method has resulted in poor sheds, so I'm not sure why they feel this is a good idea, but I guess those are the methods they employ. I have to wonder if anyone uses them with actual success?

~Maggot

Given all of these people state that correction for poor shed comes from increasing the moisture levels, I would much rather be proactive and provide the moist hide from the get go.

 

[Aimless]

I agree with Lizzy, and Joey. why would you want to leave it out? but yeah, if someone is blaming their humid hides for RIs, maybe they're not changing the substrate in the hide? I think the idea is that Leos, like BPs, do fine in a nice dry environment and then go find a damp burrow when they're in shed.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

I agree with Lizzy, and Joey. why would you want to leave it out? but yeah, if someone is blaming their humid hides for RIs, maybe they're not changing the substrate in the hide? I think the idea is that Leos, like BPs, do fine in a nice dry environment and then go find a damp burrow when they're in shed.

I've never heard this for BPs (if you mean ball pythons). Everyone I know (and I know some very experienced keepers/breeders) agrees that they need to be kept at 50-60% humidity all the time. I can't say I've ever heard any of them suggest a humid hide, but I'm sure they wouldn't be against the idea of at least allowing the option.

~Maggot

 

[Aimless]

OH, sorry for any confusion - I'm not suggesting a humid hide for BPs. I'm only saying in the wild they're going to solve the same problem as Leos by finding a damp burrow.

if you don't boost your BP's humidity via misting when they're blue, 50-60% is often not enough for them to shed normally, either.

misting is largely ineffective in a setup like what you use to house Leos, so the humid hide is the common-sense fix.

 

[Embrace Calamity]

OH, sorry for any confusion - I'm not suggesting a humid hide for BPs. I'm only saying in the wild they're going to solve the same problem as Leos by finding a damp burrow.

if you don't boost your BP's humidity via misting when they're blue, 50-60% is often not enough for them to shed normally, either.

misting is largely ineffective in a setup like what you use to house Leos, so the humid hide is the common-sense fix.

You're right about bumping humidity. I misspoke. By "all the time" I meant never letting their enclosure get any drier than 50-60% (which is why many don't like the idea of housing BPs in aquariums). What I've seen suggested for shedding time is about 70%, give or take.

I'm curious if humid hides can actually result in RIs though. Has anyone heard of such a thing actually happening?

~Maggot

 

[cricket4u]

An article everyone may be interested in reading.

CLIMATE CLASSIFICATION OF PAKISTAN
http://www.balwois.com/balwois/administration/full_paper/ffp-1295.pdf

Very true Joey. Because of the desert thought, many are kept too dry.

Just to clarify what I mean by dry. Under 40% is considered dry and if you have lived in the dry areas on the map, you can relate. Your skin becomes dry and itchy and you wake up with chapped lips.

Just sharing an observation. When they are provided with several options, they tend to avoid the driest areas. For example, I run a humidifier in the reptile room which provides them with several humidity levels to choose from. There is a section towards the warm end that reads 30%, larger area @ 40%, cool side side 50% and they also have the humidity hides which is higher at 75%-80%. These readings are not exact, but very close.

At least 2 hides are provided in all zones (all secure)

Both the 30% area and 40% have lighting and heating during the day (rules out the light)

Just my personal observation- they avoid the hides in the 30% zone.