Skinny and maybe sick Leopard.

[Wolferio89]

Hello fellow gecko lovers.

This is going to be my first post here, and I'm sorry it's a request for help right away. I have been reading the forums for longer thought.

Anyway, here's the thing. Today, I reacted on an advertisement from a guy on an online market place, saying he wants to get rid of his geckos. He said he got them, but realised he didn't really liked them after all. There were 3 leopards in the terrarium, 2 healthy ones, but also one weak, and maybe (I hope not) sick gecko.

She is very small, in pretty much every way. She lost her tail, and also misses her right front foot. She is pretty dark of skin, and althought her shedding is currently covering her head, I suspect her head has some dark (unnatural) spots on it. Also, I think her eyes are completely closed, I'm not sure if the shedding does that.

I took her apart from the other 2, to give her some extra care. For her physical condition, she is pretty agile, but she also seems to be comfortable on my hand. I tried to handfeed her, and she happily took 2 grasshoppers and 1 cricket from my hand. All 3 feeding animals were covered in calcium and vitamin powders.

I was wondering how I can let her gain some body mass. Any advise or help would be appreciated

Your's,
Danny

(Here are 2 pictures)

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Welcome to Geckos Unlimited!

I am very happy to hear that she will accept grasshoppers and crickets via handfeeding! Keep that up. Will she accept water or drink from a fresh water dish? Hydration is super important!!!

What are the dimensions of the terrarium these 3 leos came in? Please share the exact brands of the calcium and vitamin powders you are using as well as the frequency.

Separate all three leos, but especially this one. Do you know their sexes?

Create a humidity chamber to assist this one removing her shed:
Take a medium size plastic container
Punch holes in it so your leo can breathe
Place a squeezed out paper towel inside
Spray the sides
Add the leo
Place under a low wattage light (25 watt) and monitor for 15-30 minutes
Remove leo and attempt to remove stuck shed gently with a q-tip

You may also wish to give this leo a soak in tepid water up to her belly to help remove the stuck skin on her feet.

Please read the Leopard Gecko Caresheet linked right below in my signature.

Hornworms are an excellent way to add both hydration and mass. Your leo needs both. Please do a search for my Hornworm Guidelines. They will tell you what you need to successfully keep hornworms.

Complete this so we can help you better:

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...68527-helping-your-sick-gecko-read-first.html

 

[Wolferio89]

Thank you for your reply Elizabeth.

I'll first try to answer the form as correct as possible.

General Information
Species of lizard: Leopard Gecko
Gecko's name: Lucky (hoping this name will do it's work..)
Morph: I don't know due to her bad condition.
Gender: Female
Age: Unknown
Weight: I can't weigh her.
Total length: About 11 centimeters.
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it:
Source: Previous owner, who decided it wasn't his "thing".
Captive bred or wild caught: Most likely captive bred.

Enclosure dimensions (length x width x heighth):
Cage (type, size): Terrarium, she originally came from 130x50x50 (centimeters), but I took her apart in a 30x30x30 at the moment. I didn't have any alternatives for her at the moment.
Substrate provided: Calcium Grid
Types of hiding places provided: At this moment a plastic tray. I opened
Is there a humidity hide? location?: Yes, in the right back
Please describe any other furnishings: At this moment just a piece of wood.
List recent changes in the environment, if any: She totally moved to another terrarium.

Lighting
Artificial lighting
Incandescent (“screw-in” bulbs): wattage(s): A 40watt bulb for light and warmth.
Fluorescent (tube bulbs): A small UVB lamp.
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window: Yes.

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage?: Not at this moment since she moved. But I will get one or two tomorrow.
What type and brand of thermometer: Exo Terra when I buy it.
(I erased a few questions here because I haven't been able to observe her in her original terrarium yet.)

Humidity
Is the humidity measured?
Humidity range: No, I will get a measurer along with the thermometer

Diet
Insects and worms, list type: Grasshoppers and crickets
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms:
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with?
How often do you feed your gecko?: I fed her twice now, yesterday she ate 3 small grasshoppers, today she ate 2 grasshoppers and a cricket.
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often?: I use Zoo Med Repti Calcium, and Zoo Med Reptivite. Both come with D3.
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both? Zoo Med. Comes with D3
Multivitamins (include brand name)?: Zoo Med
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet: I expect when she changed owner, to me, she went from someone who didn't know a thing about gecko's (he didn't even know what calcium was), to someone who will do his best to feed her enough.

General Health
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs: Ever since I gain her. But probably much longer.
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased?: She must likely isn't as active as she should, but for her condition, I find her pretty active.
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? She ate everything I offered (5 grasshoppers and a cricket over 2 days).
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss or gain): She is very skinny
Discharge from the eyes or nose: Her eyes and nose are covered in her shed
Increased breathing rate or effort: She seems to breath normally
Change in the droppings:
Urates
---white or yellowish:
---size of urates as compared to size of feces:
Abnormal skin color or shedding: I suspect her to be yellow normally, but now she is somewhat beige and gray.
Parasites on the skin or in the feces:
Weakness: All the above, and missing her tail and front rightpaw.

Previous problems and/or illnesses: Unknown

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household: She used to be in the same terrarium with 2 other leo's, a male and a female. In my household are 2 more other leo's, in a different terrarium I have a Phelsuma, and yet another terrarium (probably) a Hemidactylus. Making the total on 7 animals.
List other animals that are kept in the same cage: None at this moment, used to be 2.
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): All the above.
Are any of your other pets ill? No

Having answered these, I will answer your questions as well, also when they are in the form.

I haven't seen her drinking yet, but when I woke up this morning, There was some shed in the dish. So I hope she actually drank. I saw her licking her lips when I didn't feed her.

I created a humidity chamber exactly as you explained me, and then tried to help her with a q-tip, but she only let go of 2 small pieces of shed. I didn't soak her in tepid water yet.

I use Zoo Med's Reptivite and Repti Calcium. I put a little of both in a little plastic bag, put the insects in it and shake it a little. I hope it's not considered sadistic, but I find it the best way to get insects completely covered.

As soon as the local reptile shop opens (wednesday ), I will go for hornworms.

I am not able to seperate all the leo's, because I simply don't have enough terraria. The other two are a healthy female, and a healthy male.

If you have any other questions, please shoot.

Yours,
Danny

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

You are welcome, Danny.

Leopard Gecko Setup - YouTube

Please read my Leo Caresheet. Much of this information is clearly described in that.

How about a picture of the enclosure? A 30 x 30 x 30 will be hard to properly heat. Best to get as close to 76 x 31 x 31 as you can in order to provide a significant difference between the warm end and the cool end.

Leos need 3 hides 24/7.

Retry the humidity chamber for at least 30 minutes and do the soak for her feet. Eye issues need quick attention! How about making a vet appointment? Internet care is no substitute for hands-on care.

Temperature questions missing from the questionnaire :-(.

Accurately knowing the temperatures is as important as the proper food. How about getting an accurate digital thermometer with a probe? Also, those stainless steel aquarium type thermometers work as long as you check them against a trusted source.

Is your calcium grid a calcium sand? Bad news. Replace with paper towels and consider getting slate, ceramic. or porcelain tiles.

You are using the UVB lamp as well as supplying D3 via the supplements!!! It's either one or the other. To properly use UVB, you need a much larger enclosure. I recommend using Zoo Med's Reptivite with the vitamin D3/A acetate as directed on the container 1x per week and the Zoo Med Repti-calcium with D3 1x per week. Nothing else including the UVB lamp. As long as Lucky is eating, that should be sufficient.

What will you do if the female begins to lay some eggs or if the pair shows aggression towards each other?

 

[Wolferio89]

Hey there again.

I created her a new housing, using a plastic trunk I had where I stored my old Nintendo's in before. I cut out a part of the cover, placing a grid and a lamp (40watt) on top. It is 66x33x30, enabling me to create 3 spots for her. ( I will edit this post later for a picture or create a new one when I find my camera.)

I placed her in a humidity chamber again, but not much came loose, only some in her neck. Then I placed her in bath, which she even seemed to enjoy! She went head under twice herself, so I didn't have to help her much.

About the UVB lamp, it's there, but I forgot to mention it's never on. My other Leo's and Phelsuma don't even have a UV lamp. The 5 insects I fed on day 1 and 2 were covered in vitamins and calcium, but I fed her 3 crickets without it today. How do I make sure I don't overfeed her? I want her to strenght up, but not at the cost of overfeeding. She still accepts everything by my hand.

I will get proper heath measures tomorrow morning. The local reptile-shop was closed today. The grid is not really sand, it's not fine enough to get in eyes and nose.

I have indeed not thought about agression inside a terrarium. I'll make sure to have an emergency-terrarium ready.

Your's
Danny

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hey there again.

I created her a new housing, using a plastic trunk I had where I stored my old Nintendo's in before. I cut out a part of the cover, placing a grid and a lamp (40watt) on top. It is 66x33x30, enabling me to create 3 spots for her. ( I will edit this post later for a picture or create a new one when I find my camera.)

This new habitat definitely is more spacious than the other one .

I placed her in a humidity chamber again, but not much came loose, only some in her neck. Then I placed her in bath, which she even seemed to enjoy! She went head under twice herself, so I didn't have to help her much.

Very good news. Any shed covering her eyes still? Be really gentle.

About the UVB lamp, it's there, but I forgot to mention it's never on. My other Leo's and Phelsuma don't even have a UV lamp. The 5 insects I fed on day 1 and 2 were covered in vitamins and calcium, but I fed her 3 crickets without it today. How do I make sure I don't overfeed her? I want her to strenght up, but not at the cost of overfeeding. She still accepts everything by my hand.

Suggest dusting with calcium and multivitamins only 2x per week. Because of her size I would feed her small amounts daily. I am happy that her appetite is good!

I will get proper heath measures tomorrow morning. The local reptile-shop was closed today. The grid is not really sand, it's not fine enough to get in eyes and nose.

The problem with particulate substrate (coarse or even fine sand, gravel, wood chips, etc.) is the risk of impaction when she dives for crickets.

I have indeed not thought about agression inside a terrarium. I'll make sure to have an emergency-terrarium ready.

Very good.

Your's
Danny

Temperatures for all leos regardless of size:
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Leave the UTH on 24/7. Can turn off overhead heating at night.

In which country do you live?

Can you get either hornworms or silkworms to feed her?

 

[Wolferio89]

Hey there,

Sorry the inactivity the last few days. She is doing good. The old shed is coming off slowly, while she gets some new shed on different places. I use the bath and chamber every day. She also stays in her humid chamber a lot.

The temperature is in from one side to the other 23 upto 31.5 C.

The local shop has no hornworms, nor silkworms, but a new store will open doors soon, so I hope to find them there.

I am from The Netherlands.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Hey there,

Sorry the inactivity the last few days. She is doing good. The old shed is coming off slowly, while she gets some new shed on different places. I use the bath and chamber every day. She also stays in her humid chamber a lot.

The temperature is in from one side to the other 23 upto 31.5 C.

The local shop has no hornworms, nor silkworms, but a new store will open doors soon, so I hope to find them there.

I am from The Netherlands.

Very, very good to hear :yahoo:.

If you do a search on GU either in the general Feeder Section or the Leo Feeder forum for Hornworm Guidelines and Silkworm Guidelines, you will find some pointers on keeping them.

For example:

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...feeding-issues/68585-hornworm-guidelines.html

 

[Wolferio89]

Small update:

One side of the shed on her head came off. It appeared as if there was a black gaping hole at her eye when the shed came off, but she just closed it. It appears black, probably because of the dirt got under while shedding. I hope she will clean her eye by licking, so I can take a better look.

But she looked at me I'm sooo happy now

Edit: Picture


I'm getting a new phone soon, so I hope I can get pictures with a higher quality then.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Small update:

One side of the shed on her head came off. It appeared as if there was a black gaping hole at her eye when the shed came off, but she just closed it. It appears black, probably because of the dirt got under while shedding. I hope she will clean her eye by licking, so I can take a better look.

But she looked at me I'm sooo happy now

Edit: Picture
View attachment 23773


I'm getting a new phone soon, so I hope I can get pictures with a higher quality then.

Excellent progress ! How about close ups of her eyes?

How about helping her clean her eyes by getting a small squeeze bottle of normal saline solution, like the kind humans use for inserting their contact lenses? Just don't use the contact lens cleaning solution!

Can you do more warm water soaks for her toes now? After the soak, perhaps a gentle rolling motion with a q-tip will loosen some of the stuck skin on her toes little by little?

I'm sure she appreciates your TLC.

 

[Wolferio89]

Hey there

First of all I must say Lucky is doing very well, and your advice and opinion helped a lot in this, so thank you!

I'll give you the close ups you asked for


In comparisation, this is her when I found her:


I'm really happy about the progress her health makes. She is also getting back some color. Today she ate for the first time without my help! She happily hunted for 3 grasshoppers.

I will continue the baths and humidity chamber.

Yours,
Danny

 

[Conched]

Danny - You have done a tremendous job nursing that leo back to health !!! Hats off to you !! She has a bit further to go but you seem pretty determined.

Try feeding her some mealworms for a few weeks they will help her pack on some weight. You can go back to a cricket diet once she is full grown and has the weight back on.

Try taking a q-tip and applying some olive oil to the dry skin on the tail and feet. That will help moisten and loosen the unshed skin. You might be better served using kitchen roll/paper towels as a substrate until the Leo is back to optimum health.

Keep up the good work.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

WOW, Danny, good job with Lucky! You are definitely welcome.

Her left eye is looking good. Any chance we could see her right eye?

I am worried about the substrate. Lucky could very easily become impacted with that if she eats any while she is hunting for grasshoppers :sad:. How about changing to paper towels (kitchen roll) and consider getting slate, porcelain, or ceramic tile about 1/4 inch thick?

 

[Wolferio89]

Thanks for the compliments guys

@Conshed
I already started feeding her little mealworms since she was able to see, and find them herself. Which she did pretty quickly, and she really had herself a very yummy meal! I stop the crickets, because I want to encourage her to find her own food, and loose crickets will maybe bite her, which I don't want to happen.

About the olive oil, yesterday I bought some Shedding Aid, from Zoo Med. I was told there is also olive oil in that (?). Sprayed it for two days now

@Elizabeth
I'm replacing it with paper towels for now, as soon as my salary comes in I'll redecorate her terrarium to be more practical. I think I'll go for porcelain.

Here is a picture of her "bad side".

The loose shed almost reached her eye, so I hope it will come loose within a few days.

---

Yesterday I bought Shedding Aid, from ZooMed, as mentioned above. It made the shed around her tail come loose, but something new there worries me. She has a black spot there, can this be rot?


Here is a picture of both sides, and of her left side.


Yours,
Danny

 

[Conched]

Ouch...the bad side is bad....she might have a bit of mouth rot. Have you opened her mouth and looked inside ? If it is mouth rot, left untreated it would be fatal. I'd say you have your hands full with this one.

 

[Wolferio89]

I know, fingers crossed and hopes up, her left side was the same, and turned out good.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Ouch...the bad side is bad....she might have a bit of mouth rot. Have you opened her mouth and looked inside ? If it is mouth rot, left untreated it would be fatal. I'd say you have your hands full with this one.

I know, fingers crossed and hopes up, her left side was the same, and turned out good.

Danny ~

Thanks very much for these photos. They really help us. What I really like the most is that Lucky feels like catching her own food again. That is very good news, Danny!

Have you a "before" photo of her right eye? Try 30+ minutes in the humidity chamber along with the Shed Aid and the olive oil straight. Perhaps some gentle tweezer action immediately after those methods have been used?

Have you tried a normal saline solution spray/flush for her right eye, the kind humans use to moisten their contact lenses (NOT contact lens cleaning solution)?

Let us know as soon as you check the inside of Lucky's mouth. Hopefully there is no tail rot.

BTW, I really love the photo of Lucky licking her lips! Great timing.........:biggrin:

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

I use Zoo Med Repti Calcium, and Zoo Med Reptivite. Both come with D3.

Maybe a very small bottle cap of Zoo Med's plain calcium in the tank 24/7 (not the D3 kind)?

How often have you been using those Zoo Med products?

 

[Wolferio89]

Danny ~

Have you a "before" photo of her right eye? Try 30+ minutes in the humidity chamber along with the Shed Aid and the olive oil straight. Perhaps some gentle tweezer action immediately after those methods have been used?

Do you mean in a normal condition? When I obtained her, she was in the condition of the first photos I posted here. Should I spray the Shedding Aid before I put her in the chamber, or after? I will use the tweezer after it.

Have you tried a normal saline solution spray/flush for her right eye, the kind humans use to moisten their contact lenses (NOT contact lens cleaning solution)?

I have not yet. My friend who uses lenses would bring me some, but I haven't seen him yet. So I'll pick it up tomorrow myself.

[/QUOTE]

Let us know as soon as you check the inside of Lucky's mouth. Hopefully there is no tail rot.

BTW, I really love the photo of Lucky licking her lips! Great timing.........:biggrin:

I will let you know. I hope so too.

I was waiting for her to do that, took a few pictures after each other to get it. :biggrin:

Maybe a very small bottle cap of Zoo Med's plain calcium in the tank 24/7 (not the D3 kind)?

How often have you been using those Zoo Med products?

Will do that. I have been using it on grasshoppers and crickets 3 times in almost 2 weeks. (Started doing it once a week after you told me)

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Do you mean in a normal condition? When I obtained her, she was in the condition of the first photos I posted here. Should I spray the Shedding Aid before I put her in the chamber, or after? I will use the tweezer after it.

OK on the pics of her right eye when you received her.

Is the Shed Aid designed to be used around eyes? NEVER used that. Maybe you could spray some Shed Aid into a glass container and then apply it around the outside of the eye using a q-tip...NOT directly on the eye's surface. How about doing that right before you place her in the humidity chamber?



I have not yet. My friend who uses lenses would bring me some, but I haven't seen him yet. So I'll pick it up tomorrow myself.

I will let you know. I hope so too.

I was waiting for her to do that, took a few pictures after each other to get it. :biggrin:



Will do that. I have been using it on grasshoppers and crickets 3 times in almost 2 weeks. (Started doing it once a week after you told me)[/QUOTE]

Have you been using the Reptivite with D3, the calcium carbonate with D3, or both?