Injured/Stressed/Sick Tokay

[cassicat4]

Hey guys, I need some help.

My male Tokay hasn't been having a great week. Monday night, he ingested most of a piece of paper towel (I'm assuming when going after a cricket or something) and then regurged it. As far as I can tell, based on an inventory of what he regurged and what was left, I don't believe he actually consumed any (beyond possibly a mouthful). Since then, he hasn't eaten or had a bowel movement of any kind (no urates or feces). (This was also cheap, flimsy towel, which has since been changed out for a much sturdier brand).

Appearance- and activity-wise, he was acting completely normal (as of Thurs night): bright color, bright-eyed, active (moving around his tank all night), does not have a bloated or distended belly, still drinks water when misted, etc. He's handleable, but I've been leaving him alone because I assumed the stress from the event has put him off food. I did give him some liquid calcium by mouth on Wednesday to help alleviate any GI fluids that may be bothering him, but that's all.

His primary diet has been crickets and superworms, although since he's been rejecting both since then, I tried offering him hornworms and butterworms by tongs. He did eat two butterworms Thursday night, but I'm not sure if that's because he wanted to, or because it was simple cause and effect reaction (he attacked the tongs and got the butterworm instead).

Since he hasn't been eating, I've made sure to clean out all the crickets from his tank (he's offered 5 a night assuming I see none left from the night before, with a potato piece in the corner for them to munch on if needed) and thought I got them all. I was wrong.

Friday afternoon, I checked on him (he was fine in the morning and at lunch), and noticed a big chunk had been bitten out of his tail. Based on the size, I don't know if it was crickets that did it, or if he did it to himself. I found some free-roaming crickets, and after removing my Tokay from the tank, I gave it a thorough inspection and was appalled to find that they had made some holes and burrowed into the foam background, and would hide in it completely out of sight. After cleaning out the background, I found 12 crickets in total. I fixed the background so now there are no more bugs (except superworms in a bowl) in his tank. As for the tail injury, I soaked it in diluted betadine for 10 minutes, coated it with regular polysporin, and bandaged it. However, after putting him back in his tank, he crawled into one of his hides and hasn't moved since (Fri afternoon/night until present).

So my questions: what do I do? He's not eating on his own, and hasn't had a bowel movement since Monday. Thursday night (after feeding the butterworms, but before the tail incident) I did talk to a herp vet tech who agreed that a vet visit wasn't warranted yet (the lack of eating and bowel movements was due to stress, give him time and space and he should come around), but that I should continue to monitor him and bring him in if there's no improvement in the next week or so, or if his behavior changes. Being that it's now a long weekend and all clinics are closed, the earliest I can get him in, if necessary, is Tuesday.

A run-down of his setup: he's in an 18x18x24 ExoTerra, has peat moss/eco earth substrate that is covered with paper towel (was recently removed as per advice from a more experienced keeper, but returned it when his tail was injured in case the bandage comes off), he's misted usually three times a day, ambient temp is 84.1F, with a basking temp of 91.2F, cool end 78.3F (measured with a digital thermometer with probe). He has fake plants covering two sides, a foam background on the back, a large cork flat, and a large cork round. He has a bowl of water available 24/7, and a bowl of superworms in plain calcium available 24/7 as well. He has a 2.0 UVB light as well as a 60W incandescent light.

He's CB, and I acquired him when he was 8 months old back in May. He's always been a healthy eater (gutloaded crickets and superworms, crickets dusted with Repashy Calcium Plus), and is in good condition and weight (118g). He has not visibly lost any weight since Monday, but I'll refrain from weighing him until I change out his bandage tonight.

I'm at a loss, because I've never dealt with regurge or appetite loss in Tokays before, and not sure what would be considered "normal" for the circumstances. The tail has me pretty upset as well, but I'm hopeful it will heal (he still has feeling in all parts of his tail as well). If anyone could help me out, provide advice, etc., it would be greatly appreciated. I'm pretty concerned right now, and feel at a loss as to what to do for him.

Thanks

EDIT: I also wanted to add that he did shed Wednesday night and ate most of it (with the exception of part of the head).

 

[Aimless]

Are you absolutely sure he's eaten nothing? I'd be tempted to give him more time as long as color and activity are good, and the wound stays clean.
What is you misting schedule, what's his humidity, and why does he have 2 bright lights on all day? There's good argument for the 2.0 bulb, but why do give him more? It might contribute to his stress.

Can you post a pic of his viv?

Sorry, reread and saw the misting.

Why paper towel?

 

[cassicat4]

Are you absolutely sure he's eaten nothing? I'd be tempted to give him more time as long as color and activity are good, and the wound stays clean.
What is you misting schedule, what's his humidity, and why does he have 2 bright lights on all day? There's good argument for the 2.0 bulb, but why do give him more? It might contribute to his stress.

Can you post a pic of his viv?

Sorry, reread and saw the misting.

Why paper towel?

Thanks for the reply.

I guess I can't be 100% sure he hasn't eaten anything (except last night, when there were no crickets, and I counted the worms prior to offering them). I was assuming he hasn't based on the fact that he's always been very consistent with his eating/bowel movements, and lack of bowel movements to me pointed at not eating (or worse, holding it in for some reason?).

His humidity fluctuates between 50-70% (measured with digital hygrometer). And I apologize, I was wrong about the misting schedule, he's actually usually misted 3 times a day just because the air is a bit drier here (I'll edit my original post after this).

The 60W light is for heating (is a daylight type bulb, gives off a yellow glow). He's located in my gecko room, which is controlled by an A/C to keep temps around 75F (I have mostly Rhacs in this room that require the lower temps). Due to our chaotic weather where I live, I wasn't comfortable keeping him in another room when our summer temps are all over the place. Can you suggest a better method of providing heat? I have no qualms about changing it up, I just didn't realize light could cause stress when his sleeping spots allow him to be out of the light completely.

I opted for paper towel because I watched him dive bomb a cricket when I first got him and he wound up with a mouthful of substrate. Concerned about impaction, I chose paper towel. I can see now that I should have switched him out long ago, and taken my chances with the substrate. :/ As of now, I only have paper towel in there because of his injury, in the event his bandage comes off and I don't want it getting infected (the plan is to remove it as soon as he's healed, unless advised otherwise). However, I was planning on offering crickets in a bowl until he heals (or maybe this should be how they're always offered?).

I was given the same advice by some local keepers about giving him some more time, so it's reassuring to hear it from you as well. If he isn't eating, is it possible he's just too stressed to do so right now? My biggest concern is his lack of bowel movements. I'm hesitant to feed him in the absence of such, because I don't want to contribute to a potential constipation problem. Can/will Tokays hold it in if they're stressed? I do know for a fact he has not gone since Monday, because he always goes in the same place, I always check several times over the course of the night and the morning, and I thoroughly checked his entire enclosure when I cleaned out the crickets in case he went somewhere else. Nada.


BigTokay by cassicat4, on Flickr

 

[Aimless]

Hmmm. The cage is nice.
I use Oregon tree moss over my base substrate with all my geckos and ingestion has never been a problem, but there are many ways to do this.

I'd be tempted to leave his tail unbandaged; how bad is the damage? When I've had minor wounds on my herps or fosters the vets I've worked with have recommended paper towel substrate and a nice clean cage, which you've done, and then daily cleaning with chlorhex or betadine, which you are doing. Is it bad enough that he has to have the bandage?

As for the lack of poop, that's the concern. Possibly he's working to digest some paper towel and it will just take time. You might consider removing all superworms til he's pooped, since the high chitin might make it harder to pass the paper.

Still, as long as his color is good I'd wait a little longer.

For the light...its good he can get away from it; that was my worry. I use a 25w ceramic bulb for heat, and only provide one light source, because too much light can be a stress for nocturnal geckos and I turn the overhead lights on during the day as well. Your guy has enough cover he's probably OK?

Can you put his crickets in a small plastic container? Then he can hunt without hurting himself.

 

[cassicat4]

Thank you. I have heard various people talk about using different substrates such as moss, eco earth, soil, etc., and I've never known which one is ultimately best (for both humidity and impaction risk). The peat moss/eco earth mix is one I use in most of my tanks for various species as this is what I found was most recommended.

I'll take a picture of his tail tonight when I take off the bandage. The inury was about half an inch away from the tip of his tail, and resulted in approximately half of his tail (at that point) being gone. It looked pretty bad to me, but I may be a bit biased (and have little experience dealing with "serious" open-wounds in herps). based on the size and shape, I honestly don't know if he did it to himself, or if it was cricket-related. I opted for a bandage to be safe, but you may be right in that it's unwarranted.

I'll remove the superworms. Should I give him a warm bath and belly massage, or try giving him some mineral oil, in case there's a blockage? I felt his tummy and didn't feel anything out of sorts, but I know that's not always indicative.

I would say his color is good. He's nice and light, and only darkens slightly when first handled in the evenings, or when exposed to new people or smells, but he's never what I'd call dark. The darkest I've seen is when he sleeps, and even that just turns him into a deeper blue shade, and nothing more (he's a normal). He still moves around his tank at night, and is very curious and exploratory when I have him out, so his activity hasn't slowed. And being notoriously cage-defensive, he still makes it a challenge getting him out of there in the first place, which I've heard is a good sign (whereas sick Tokays won't put up a fight).

Ok, yes, he can definitely get out of the light. His favorite sleeping spots are either under his cork flat, in his cork tube, or under the foliage on the sides, and he's completely shaded in all three spots.

Yes, I will offer his crickets in a plastic container from now on. How many should I offer at a time? I've heard mixed things on how many Tokays should/do eat.

 

[Aimless]

As for how many bugs, I'm not the best one to ask I toss some in regularly and watch the gecko's condition. They are all different. My young adult female eats probably a dozen dubia nymphs a week of assorted size

If he will tolerate a soak it might not hurt, but I'd just be tempted to give it a few more days. You're watching him pretty closely and will no doubt know pretty soon if he starts feeling bloated.

Unfortunately I don't have much more to add. I would also wait for other responses; I'm no expert, lol. But it seems that you're doing things right and just need to wait a bit.

 

[cassicat4]

That's good to know. I'll start with 5 then, and see how he does with those. I know my younger female eats a pile of crickets every night, but my male doesn't take as many (however, he was being offered food daily, so I'm guessing he may be reducing his intake due to age?).

Ok, I'll just take him out to clean his wound and leave it for now. If he does become bloated, should I try the soak then? Or just leave it for the vet?

Thanks for your help and reassurances, it's really appreciated.

 

[Aimless]

If you see symptoms of impaction a soak is a good place to start. But, if he's not impacted its extra stress.

You're welcome. I'm always glad if I can help.

 

[cricket4u]

Hi cassicat4,

First, I'm not very experienced with these guys either and only have one. Hope you don't mind a few recommendations. I would highly recommend a much longer enclosure. IMO this is too small. It appears too dry in the enclosure, therefore I must wonder if the problem in the tail was due to poor shedding? I keep mine at 60-85 RH. This is what I use and it works well.

Exo Terra : Monsoon RS400 / High-pressure Misting System

I would definitely eliminate the superworms. Hopefully he is just stressed. Keep us posted.

Edit:
Another hollow log or bamboo higher up would be good to eliminate so much empty space in the front. First consider moving him to a larger enclosure.

 

[billewicz]

Hello,

Ok, so here are some confirmations:
Remove the bandage. Tokay have the best healing capacity of any reptile, or animal for that matter.

I'm still not clear as to the wound. Did he drop a part of his tail or is there a gouged out area?
Does he tent to sleep/hide head down or head up? If its head up, does his tail lay at the bottom of the enclosure?

A stuck shed on the tail can cause a rot to form especially if he rests his tale on the ground when he's in his hide.

You are looking for the wound to dry up and scar, usually black. If the wound remains damp it will attract small flies to lay eggs there and maggots will form. At that point the vet should look at the tail to remove a section.

Poor healing is usually the nature of really old Tokay, say over 6 to 8 years old. Young ones should heal quickly.

The paper towel may still be in his gut and will take a while to pass. I've use Cyprus mulch for my 300+ Tokay for over 5 years without a problem.

For your set-up and room heating conditions I'd use an additional heat pad under the enclosure. This is far more efficient in heating the whole enclosure, not just the top of it. As for all the extra light, mine have been exposed to lots of day lighting and UVB 2.0 during the day. Most like to hang out in the open areas during the day. Most Tokay owners have not seen this because they have not had them long enough. It takes several months for them to get used to your routine, etc.

Super worms are fun food but have so little nutritional value that they should not be given, especially now. They will also burrow into your cork bark and reduce it to a sawdust pile. Crickets love to burrow in foam and will eventually turn the background into a pile of dust as well.

So, assuming the wound is not festering, I'd leave him be for a while. Obviously critical care requires a fair amount of observation and handling. But letting him calm down in between treatments is also important since stress is the real killer. He can go a few days, even a week without eating so give him a chance to clear his guts if the paper is still there.

 

[cricket4u]

Billewicz~

Most like to hang out in the open areas during the day.

Mine does, although I was unsure if it was common. Thank you for the verification.

 

[billewicz]

Billewicz~

Most like to hang out in the open areas during the day.

Mine does, although I was unsure if it was common. Thank you for the verification.

I'm always surprised and a bit dismayed that reptile keepers typically need to over simplify husbandry and make broad assumptions.

As an example, just because Tokay are seemingly more active at night does not mean they never venture out during the day. Typically their hunting and social activities seem much more in the morning after the sun has risen and in the late afternoon well before the sun has set.

Here's another: Tokay come from a tropical place that has a wet season and a dry season with seasonal temps to match. They live very close to the equator yet you'd be surprise how many people will argue that they need seasonal lighting cycles. i.e., longer days in the summer. There is no light cycle along the equator.

Anyhow, please keep us posted as to his condition, thanks and good luck.

 

[Aimless]

this is slightly OT/tangential; I hope this is OK, Cassi!

my tokay (and yes, n=1 here) comes out when the herp room is quiet. when I first had her I put the daytime light over the back 1/2 of the viv, where the plants are and also her sleeping area. she never came out while it was on. I moved the light to the front 1/2 of the viv. it's still bright but not as intrusive. I don't see her on the front of the glass during the day, but she does come out.

how much light is on your caging, Billewicz? I was typing from my very limited experience, assuming the extra light would be stressful. is that totally off base? I don't want to give bad advice.

 

[cassicat4]

Ok, so first, thanks for all the replies guys.

Next, here is a picture of the tail (this was taken the second day, right after a betadine soak) (sorry for the poor quality - cell phone. If needed, I can take a better one):



I honestly don't believe it's rot, or the result of a poor shed. I check all of my critters over post-shed (when I'm aware of shedding, as I was in this case), and it wasn't present when I checked on him around noon, but it was there when I checked on him around 5-6pm that night (he had shed a couple days prior). To me, it looks like a gouge...I'm thinking self-inflicted? But I worry it was crickets, because I have see the results of a mass cricket feast on someone's gecko before...and it wasn't pretty. But I don't know...what do you guys think?

As for sleeping, he sleeps in a couple different positions, but his favorite is attached to the underside of his cork flat or splat on the ground. He'll also sometimes sleep against the background about halfway up, so nowhere near the bottom. And then other times he'll be against the glass, sometimes near the bottom, sometimes near the top, and sometimes in bizarre yoga-like positions on the ground. Depending on the day, he'll be out in the open quite a bit (today, for example, he's sleeping on his vine), and then others, he prefers to hide away. He has been spending more time in the open as time has progressed, so that's good that's normal for them (I was always under the impression they would always want to hide out of sight).

As per suggestions, I removed the bandage (yesterday afternoon). Should I still be giving him betadine soaks/polysporin, or should it heal up fine on its own now? He's had two treatments thus far. If I could avoid doing so, for his sake, I would like to, because I'm sure it's stressful for him for me to be doing that.

The good news...he pooped! Last night. And there was no evidence of paper towel or substrate in it for that matter, so that was reassuring! He still isn't eating on his own yet though.

Cricket - A misting system is a good idea, as it'll eliminate the need for me to monitor constantly as well. I've only used Mistking though - how does that compare with the one you linked? Better? Worse? Same, just different brand essentially?

To confirm, the enclosure pic was taken right after a good cleaning when I also replaced the paper towel. So yes, it was drier than usual in there definitely. It's normally much more humid.

I was also looking into buying one of those large magnetic rock hides as a local keeper mentioned their Tokay loves it. So yes, that's a good idea as well.

And superworms - removed.

Billewicz - the wound is looking a bit black around the edges. So that's good? I was concerned it was a sign of rot or necrosis.

I'll look into Cypress Mulch instead. Do yours get free-roaming crickets, or fed from a bowl? As per advice, I've taken to offering crickets in a bowl instead (it'll also make me feel a bit better without worrying that they're hiding or pestering him). Considering his wound, am I safe to remove the paper towel now, or should I leave it until he's fully healed?

I'll pick up a heat pad this week (and ones for my other Tokays). I've heard varying advice on this matter in the past, so had gone without until now.

What would you suggest for adding variety to the diet? Bearing in mind I'm in Canada, so dubias are out unfortunately. Some of the things I've heard from other keepers (but haven't tried myself) are pinkies for treats, and Repashy (even though it's a fruit-product, and I thought these guys were purely insectivores? Didn't sound right to me). What I have offered are butterworms and hornworms, but he refused the hornworms.

Since he's currently not eating, am I right to assume it's stress-related (likely from his regurge, and then wound, and then me manhandling him to clean his wound)?

Aimless - I notice my male is quite active at night, and will also spend a lot of time at the front of his tank, on his doors...but only if the room is quiet, and he can't see me moving around. Otherwise, he spends most of his time running around at the back of his tank, where he can't see me. I try to ensure these conditions nightly, because I don't want to possibly affect his eating (if it does). My female, on the other hand, is constantly creeping on me and seems to follow me around the room. However, I've had her since she was just a young thing, so she's obviously quite a bit more comfortable with me.

I think that's everything, and hopefully I addressed everyone's questions/advice!

 

[cricket4u]

That's no insect bite, I can tell you that much. It appear self inflicted, however I'm not sure why he would. Unless he struck at a cricket and accidentally bit his tail. I know leos have done this to each others tails.

I would keep an eye on his tail for signs of infection through the enclosure and avoid further stress. Pulling him out and all the extra stuff can make matters worse.

Its' a shame you can not keep roaches. Mine will eat hornworms, however, you have to make sure their large enough(within appropriate size of course) and move them around with the tongs. I do not feed pinkies ever. Do you have access to locust in Canada?

As far as the misters, Mansoon is just simpler. I don't know about you, but I like easy to use. Obviously either one will do the job.

 

[billewicz]

this is slightly OT/tangential; I hope this is OK, Cassi!

how much light is on your caging, Billewicz? I was typing from my very limited experience, assuming the extra light would be stressful. is that totally off base? I don't want to give bad advice.

I use a UVB 2.0 from above through their screen tops. 2 rooms have natural sun lite windows and all 5 have "Day light/5000k" lighting to light the entire room.

Typically I see the bigger males out all day long while most of the females tend to be more reserved but they do come out.

As long as the enclosure has good vertical hides, they will self regulate what they need and will hide out when they want. Remember the jungle from which they come has fractured sun light through the canopy and can have direct exposure in spots. And mine fill come out and hunt/feed any time of the day if food is available.

 

[billewicz]

Hey, so you did say he was by himself when this happened? Sometimes males do not get a good grip on their mates while breeding and she bites the crap out of him.

Also, is the very tip of his tail nipped off as well?

I've seen tails get caught in cage furniture that got moved around or fell over. Oh, and caught in glass doors as well.

Let the wounds dry up and scab over. He should be fine very soon.

I've used several magnetic caves and hides mounted to the sides but my Tokay do not like them. Obviously shape is a factor. They really love the space between vertical things, like between a vertical slab of slate and a cork bark slab leaning against that.

Treats: Some will eat pinks, horned worms, etc. Some will not. Mice pinks are typically only used if nothing else will work for a sick Tokay. Gut loaded crickets and roaches are far better for them without the heavy fat of pinks. Most of mine will eat the Goliath Horned worms, but some will not. I have Tokay that will not eat anything else accept crickets and I've had them for over 5 years.

I let my crickets and roaches free roam in the enclosure but I like the tub idea if your Tokay will feed from it. Just place the tub against the glass near one of his hides so he can come down from above to snag his prey.

Do not feed your Tokay Rapeshy. It's like eating straight candy. Oh they will like it very much but Tokay are insect eaters, not pollen, nectar or flower eaters.

We do know that once you get them hooked to this 'sugar crack' they will not go back to their normal diet. Some keepers would like nothing more than not to not deal with insects but no one has done the long term study to see how long a Tokay will live on just Repashy. They do not eat these things in the wild. My feeling is if the keeper don't like what they eat, don't keep that animal.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Cassi ~

Can you take a picture of how the tail looks now?

Generally how long do you leave crickets in the tank post feeding?

 

[cricket4u]

Cassi ~

Can you take a picture of how the tail looks now?

Picture posted in post #14. It's not a cricket or any insect bite.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Picture posted in post #14. It's not a cricket or any insect bite.

Yes, cricket, I saw that . How many days out from the tail injury are we?

Next, here is a picture of the tail (this was taken the second day, right after a betadine soak) (sorry for the poor quality - cell phone. If needed, I can take a better one):

Injured/Stressed/Sick Tokay-20130831_191114.jpg