The ole UV debate

J

Joe Farah

New member
Let me introduce this topic in a slightly different way...
Instead of asking " Do Day Geckos Need UV?" , I'd like to ask this:

Which is BEST, UV or not?

Also, what are the benefits of not using UV? In what ways is NOT using UV BETTER than providing it?

We've all seen that Phelsuma can be maintained without it, so it's not a question anymore of whether or not it's necessary... it's about which is best.

I for one will continue to provide UVB for my Phelsuma until someone can demonstrate to me that my geckos will do better without it than they will with it.

Anyone want to make the case for why Not using UV is BETTER?
 
the moof

the moof

New member
nah, i disagree. Their colours are never as nice without UVB, and it stimulates the production of vitamin D3, which processes calcium, so you don't have to supplement it :)

this debate could go on forever. However, I believe it is in the best interest of the animal to provide UVB light, simply because it is what they recieve in the wild.
 
C

chadosborne

New member
uv

I think the normal Fluorescents provide enough uv for most phelsuma. I've got some 25 year old standingi to back it up too. I vari my calcuim source and that plays a big role for me.

You can rasie them w/out fluorescent light but there bones go to mush when thet start breeding. Learned that one the hard way.

Chad
 
Gecko Haven

Gecko Haven

New member
Joe Farah said:
Any of you European know-it-alls want to enlighten me? I think you guys started this trend in the first place.
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any explanation to go along with this statement. it sounds like an opinion to me.
 
J

Joe Farah

New member
Gecko Haven said:
Joe Farah said:
Any of you European know-it-alls want to enlighten me? I think you guys started this trend in the first place.
Click to expand...

any explanation to go along with this statement. it sounds like an opinion to me.
Click to expand...

Sure... since you asked

First, it's not an opinion. They (Europeans) either did start promoting keeping Phelsuma without UV or they didn't. I say they did. I could be wrong, and there may be some debate about it, but it is not an opinion as to whether keepers in the US or in Europe started the trend.

I was told by Leann Christenson one day on the phone that some guy in Europe who was a big pioneer with Phelsuma back in the day did a bunch of experiments and concluded that Phelsuma didn't need UV. He wrote about it and convinced a bunch of other people (including some in the US like Leann), who have now convinced many more people and so on.

It seems to be catching on like wildfire and now at least 50% of the Phelsuma keepers I know don't use UV. When I ask them why, they always reference Leann or her book or just say, "well, I heard they don't need it and they're doing good so far..." I wondered what they would conclude if they asked not "do they need it?" , but "do they benefit from it?"

Now, the part about Europeans being "know it alls" - thats an opinion! And I stand by it :)
 
Sgvreptiles

Sgvreptiles

New member
Joe Farah said:
Sure... since you asked

First, it's not an opinion. They (Europeans) either did start promoting keeping Phelsuma without UV or they didn't. I say they did. I could be wrong, and there may be some debate about it, but it is not an opinion as to whether keepers in the US or in Europe started the trend.

I was told by Leann Christenson one day on the phone that some German guy who was a big pioneer with Phelsuma back in the day did a bunch of experiments and concluded that Phelsuma didn't need UV. He wrote about it and convinced a bunch of other people (including some in the US like Leann), who have now convinced many more people and so on.

It seems to be catching on like wildfire and now at least 50% of the Phelsuma keepers I know don't us UV. When I ask them why, they always reference Leann or her book or just say, "well, I heard they don't need it and they're doing good so far..." I wondered what they would conclude if they asked not "do they need it?" , but "do they benefit from it?"

Now, the part about Europeans being "know it alls" - thats an opinion! And I stand by it :)
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I belive they can be kept perfectly fine without it and will breed if supplemented well. Thats what ive been able to do. I havent not used UV because ive been told. I just did it because anything can be kept without it. As long as your supplement well. But im soon going to change over to all UV and heat lights. As I have experimented with some geckos with UVB lighting. I raised some juvies on it,and some with out it. And the ones that are on UVB are alot more colorfull, there apatite is really big,they are really active and grew bigger faster. So im convinced that it is the more benificial, But I will still say it is not 100% nessecary to keep and breed them. But defenetly benificial.
 
M

mrow1109

New member
Just to add some stats for you other keepers, The 3 keepers noted in leanns book that gave opinions and materials to prove UVB lighting is not needed were
William H Gehrmann
Lance Rice
Kevin M Wright
Anyways my opinion on the whole matter is that many keepers seem to want to provide a natural habitat but they do not care to provide uvb. The sun is the highest spectrum of lighting and it gives off the highest amount of UVB.So if you are wanting to provide a natural habitat why do you give full spectrum and not UVB or vica versa. Therefore i think the best thing to do to keep a day gecko in best health is give it full spectrum and UVB. Either way if not doing it to keep your gecko happy you may as well spend 10 dollars more to put a full spec and UVb bulb in your fixture as opposed to 2 cheap incandescents.
 
B

Bamma

New member
Here's my 2 cents.. I use reptilesun 2.0 and 5.0 on all of my phelsuma inside. I did a little experiment myself, I had a female Phelsuma laticauda laticauda that I bought as a CB. She was NOT raised under good light and you couldn't even see her red color, I bred her to a WC male with good color and raised the juvies under good but not great Fluorescent light but I also used a reptilesun 5.0 for a short time (4hr) each day. They looked like WC animals! I'm sure I have pictures some where...... I think you could raise Phelsuma without UV but why? Unless you hand dose with D3 how do you know how much they really get? I'm not that smart! It's WAY easier to use bulbs that give off UV. This is one of the reasons I built my outside enclosures (sorry the rest of you don't live in Florida).
Tim Adams
 
J

Joe Farah

New member
Well I was going to give Bamma a warm "thank you" for this useful post BEFORE I read who it was... Tim Adams!

You should navigate to my website and check out the little tidbit I wrote about you, Tim. I want you to know how much I appreciate the amazing klemmeri i bought from you a while back, but also the free Phelsumax you sent me, and just your overall awesome service!

http://www.freewebs.com/joefarah/recommendedbreeders.htm

Thanks a million!
 
F

Frankie

New member
In 1961, Molle, Dohrn & Lehmann published findings that UV penetrated 0.1 % on Phelsuma lineata skin, very low compared to penetration on human skin which is 30%. (30% is somewhat efficient to utilize UV radiation penetration to trigger vitamin D synthesis).

Based on the above study, some other scientific studies (too many for this post) and a some European keepers experience keeping Phelsuma only on dietary D3, Henkel & Schmidth in their book, Geckos (pp 96., Krieger, 1991), wrote "A recurring question is: Do the animals [geckos] require ultraviolet light? In our experience this question may be answered with a simple "No", provided the animals are given sufficient vitamin D3."

I have never been satisfied with anecdotal opinions. I like to know the background evidence..

The question shouldn't be which is better UV or no UV? unless you are address risks of MBD. If the question is which light provides the best color stimulation, the answer is non UV lights, lights that provide high lumination and quality color rendering do the best to stimulate color.
 
J

Joe Farah

New member
Thanks for your input Frankie.

The question shouldn't be which is better UV or no UV? unless you are address risks of MBD. If the question is which light provides the best color stimulation, the answer is non UV lights, lights that provide high lumination and quality color rendering do the best to stimulate color.
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The problem with this part is that I'm not saying, "you have to pick only one - a uv bulb or a regular bulb". I use both. The question is, "If I add a UV bulb alongside my high-lumen regular tube, will it be beneficial?"

If you raised 2 groups of similar Phelsuma in a scientifically controlled setting, and the only difference between them was that one group had the addition of UVB and UVA, which group would breed better? Look better? eat better and just be overall better?

I have a guess...
 
F

Frankie

New member
I can say in my experience, in reply to which species do best under UV AND high quality lights, that standingi and barbouri seem to do much better in breeding and activity. That may be a hint as to possible answer: Phelsuma in highest heat exposure/environments on Madagascar respond to the presence of UV. Both standingi and barbouri thrive on hot direct sunlight in Madagascar even though they both come from different environments (mountain and arid, respectively).

P. klemmeri, laticauda, quadriocellata breed like crazy even without UV exposure. From what I have read about them, they are often found "tree trunk" levels in the tropics rather than tree top constantly exposure to sun. UV lighting doesn't stimulate their coloration, but great fluorescents do.
 
J

Joe Farah

New member
In 1961, Molle, Dohrn & Lehmann published findings that UV penetrated 0.1 % on Phelsuma lineata skin, very low compared to penetration on human skin which is 30%. (30% is somewhat efficient to utilize UV radiation penetration to trigger vitamin D synthesis).
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Are you saying that UV light does not trigger vitamin D synthesis in Phelsuma because it does not penetrate as deep as it does in human skin?
 
J

Joe Farah

New member
...also, I looked for that article on uv penetration in lineata and the only thing i found was a reference to it by Leann in a forum post:

http://lists.gekkota.com/pipermail/gecko/2003-May/001878.html

Can you direct me to that publishing so i can read it too. You did read it right? You didn't just take that small bit of info from leanns forum post I would assume...

I have never been satisfied with anecdotal opinions. I like to know the background evidence..
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