Stable market or would you rather keep the way it is?

Do you think we need standards set in the gecko market for pricing?


  • Total voters
    13

sschind

New member
Fair or not, it is not good for the geckos as everything declines with the price, i.e. genetic standards, sanitary standards (disease is common in all the commonly bred geckos). I also find just by posting something on Kingsnake often lowers the perception of price and/or quantity when it is the same few individuals up for sale. It seems to be the truelly rare geckos suffering this while the common ones are hyped well above typical mark up. The public educated on this would help everyone.

That is a valid point. As price comes down and more and more people are buying the geckos more will obviously come into the hands of those who will not take care of them properly. Whether this is because they don't have the knowledge (which can be changed) or they have the attitude that they don't care because it was a cheap gecko anyway (which, unfortunately, can not be changed) It is also true that the higher the cost, usually, the more attention is paid to the animal to make sure it gets the care it needs. Still, I don't see that as a reason to initiate artificially high prices on an animal that the market won't support. All it might do is delay the price plunge a while and ensure that it will be even more severe when it does happen. More and more people will see the price remaining stable. They won't realize that it is not because of the free market but because of some artificial price standards. More people will get into breeding the animals because they see the price remain high. Then when all those people can't sell their animals because everyone willing to pay the high prices has done so they will have to drop their prices. This sudden drop will cause more people, for whom the price was just out of their range, to jump on the breeding train because "after all, the price has remained fairly constant for a long time" and the spiral continues downward until the price reaches a point where 1. people will be able to buy them simply for pets and not future retirement investments. 2 those people who paid a ton of money for their animals will get rid of them because the the babies are not selling for as much as the are worth in their minds and they are losing money. Either way, production drops and the price levels off, way below what it was several generations before.

I also feel that there is some confusion with truly rare gecko species with all the morphs available in Leopard geckos and Cresteds. Some of these morphs, simply because of genetics, are truly rare but IMHO a 1 in 64 chance leopard gecko is junk beside say a masobe.

As far as kingsnake goes, I would tend to agree. I don't want to offend anyone but many of the people who advertise on KS are those who only do this for the money. I don't know you all so I don't know if anyone here advertises on KS but I will say that I do see some ads for individual geckos that look outstanding and are offered by breeders who truly care about their animals. I tend to see more from jobbers and wholesalers and retailers who, if the price dropped too much, would be looking for a different line of work in a heartbeat. I tend to avoid people such as these.

All in all, I would say yes, higher prices would probably help out some of the geckos. Especially those, like the masobe, (not that I have seen CB masobes in any sort of price range I could afford) that are not easy to care for. Still, you will never get people to agree on prices. When prices are the same only quality of the animals and reputation of the seller are variable. Those with less than stellar reputations, or those with inferior animals, will have to find another way to compete and they only way they will be able to is by lowering their price. And once that starts there is no stopping it until the market adjusts
 

Knobtailman

New member
Those with not so good of reputations should just take better care of their animals and there are plenty of people willing to give them a second chance without them lowering the price, even if it comes to coming to their facility and those with inferior animals shouldn't keep lowering the price, I mean they should keep it at a lower price then normal animals but not keep lowering it. Also I was thinking of setting permanent standards for the prices.
 

sciteacher

New member
While it might be a nice dream to think about having some sort of price stabilization mechanism in place, I have to agree that in practice I cannot see it ever being workable in a free market economy. There will always be those who price higher or lower than others and there's really nothing that anyone can do about it. If the demand outstrips the supply of available animals, then the price will rise. If the supply is greater than the demand, the price will fall. We can argue until we're blue in the face about what the price should be or the fact that there should be more demand for certain species, but the fact remains that the basic principles of supply and demand will drive the prices being paid for various species. Perhaps we need to focus more energy on increasing the demand part of the equation if there is a need to stabilize or increase prices. The breeder / seller has to convince buyers that their product is worth the asking price. This is how it works with houses, cars, computers, etc... geckos are no different in terms of how the market works. My .02 worth.

Gary Hamann
Ridge and Valley Reptiles
 

Bowfinger

New member
While it might be a nice dream to think about having some sort of price stabilization mechanism in place, I have to agree that in practice I cannot see it ever being workable in a free market economy. There will always be those who price higher or lower than others and there's really nothing that anyone can do about it. If the demand outstrips the supply of available animals, then the price will rise. If the supply is greater than the demand, the price will fall. We can argue until we're blue in the face about what the price should be or the fact that there should be more demand for certain species, but the fact remains that the basic principles of supply and demand will drive the prices being paid for various species. Perhaps we need to focus more energy on increasing the demand part of the equation if there is a need to stabilize or increase prices. The breeder / seller has to convince buyers that their product is worth the asking price. This is how it works with houses, cars, computers, etc... geckos are no different in terms of how the market works. My .02 worth.

Gary Hamann
Ridge and Valley Reptiles

Valid points and information I have already considered. The point is not to alter the price by placing it on print "this is the price" but by giving details of going prices and explain why 10 different gecko of the same species, even same color form sell for more or less. If you buy a Indian or South African species from Jon Boone, it might fetch a higher price do to his relentless work on keeping not only good bloodlines but seperating local spacific otherwise not concerned by the general market. You are honored in this system for your good thoughtful work to the future of the species and hobby. Those that are not showing proof of good bloodline fall under a lower priced general pricing typical of say pet store sales, as we know the seconds are many times dumped on them. Also import or captive bred will be considered and basically it will function differently for each species. A never before imported species might get just an sexed adult, m or f, and young or one general price while Leopard Geckos will be extensive and seperated into the typical local spacific section and the designer section. And the way house prices where fixed to go well above what the market can substain will not happen here if I am involved. I don't want to control the market, I want to stabalize it for a healthier market that is worth investing into.

Hopefully that make sense.
 

aquapimp

New member
What markets are "fixed" that are not monopolistic? It's simply a matter of supply and demand in my humble opinion.


"monitoring" of "good Breeder's" lineages seems pretty unrealistic. By whom?
 

sciteacher

New member
Valid points and information I have already considered. The point is not to alter the price by placing it on print "this is the price" but by giving details of going prices and explain why 10 different gecko of the same species, even same color form sell for more or less. If you buy a Indian or South African species from Jon Boone, it might fetch a higher price do to his relentless work on keeping not only good bloodlines but seperating local spacific otherwise not concerned by the general market. You are honored in this system for your good thoughtful work to the future of the species and hobby. Those that are not showing proof of good bloodline fall under a lower priced general pricing typical of say pet store sales, as we know the seconds are many times dumped on them. Also import or captive bred will be considered and basically it will function differently for each species. A never before imported species might get just an sexed adult, m or f, and young or one general price while Leopard Geckos will be extensive and seperated into the typical local spacific section and the designer section. And the way house prices where fixed to go well above what the market can substain will not happen here if I am involved. I don't want to control the market, I want to stabalize it for a healthier market that is worth investing into.

Hopefully that make sense.

I think I agree with the basic premise of this, which is that some geckos are worth more than others because of factors that might not be readily apparent but I guess I still can't quite picture what you really have in mind until I see some sort of example. The end goal of a "healthy, stable market worth investing into" sounds great. I still fail to see how that is achieved in any way other than the supply and demand equation. As a buyer, I definitely consider the source of the animal as well as the physical characteristics, age, sex, whether the animal is CB or WC, etc... in helping to determine what is a fair price. I will pay more for what I believe are higher quality animals. Are you simply talking about some guidelines to better educate buyers who are new to the hobby so that they better understand why one gecko might go for hundreds of dollars while another goes for $10... or are you suggesting a system that would somehow categorize breeders and animals in some sort of rating system? If so, who is doing the rating and how is politics kept out of the equation? I'm looking forward to hearing more about what you have in mind, but a big part of me remains quite skeptical that anything other than supply and demand can affect the market.

Gary Hamann
Ridge and Valley Reptiles
 

sciteacher

New member
What markets are "fixed" that are not monopolistic? It's simply a matter of supply and demand in my humble opinion.


"monitoring" of "good Breeder's" lineages seems pretty unrealistic. By whom?

Sorry Tom,

You basically said the same thing I did before I posted... used a lot less words too. :)

Gary
 

Bowfinger

New member
sciteacher (Gary),
All the above. As for politics it will always be an issue as any other similar system, thats why you incorporate "the people" into this as much as possible. If it fails politically but showed promise, others will copy the idea with better service and eventually it will work. It would be a grading system on the market staging geckos and their suppliers. It can show price arrows down or up based on recent activity with link to explination if any for this activity. I can see this making DNA testing and starting stud books as a more valuable and worthwhile option.

If you want to see something that has done this very well is look into sports cards. They have all of this. I would take that idea and cross it with dogs/horse stud books etc...the cross roads of other similar concepts into one unique plan for geckos and/or all reptiles and amphibians. It might take the fun out for some but it will better the animal I am sure.
 

Bowfinger

New member
I think a negative outlook on this project is what can make all our efforts useless when wild populations are gone and all we have are inbred hyper tangarine ghost eyed bong blazers to show for natural selection nature gave us.
 

sschind

New member
If you want to see something that has done this very well is look into sports cards. They have all of this. I would take that idea and cross it with dogs/horse stud books etc...the cross roads of other similar concepts into one unique plan for geckos and/or all reptiles and amphibians. It might take the fun out for some but it will better the animal I am sure.

How has sports cards addressed this issue? Just like any other marketable item you have your highs and your lows and people asking outrageous prices in both directions. If you are talking about grading I would simply point to the influx of bogus and generally inept grading companies to pop up. Forgeries and fakes are rampant. The small time collector has been almost driven out of the hobby.

Also, it's not an accurate comparison. In sports cards, unlike reptiles, the supply is fixed. It doesn't matter how many pairs of cards you buy you can not breed them and create more. Assuming there are more people who would want a particular card than there are cards available every time a card is sold the price should in theory go up. In the reptile world just the opposite happens in many cases. A person buys two animals and rather than the supply going down by two, he breeds them and the supply actually increases.

So far Gary has had the best idea of focusing on increasing demand. That will help everyone.
 

Bowfinger

New member
Well, I take it you missed the concept of not being a copy due to the obvious reasons you both stated, yet so quik to point out how dumb for the obvious reasons how dumb you fail to see the not so obvious reasons. This would actually be a more fluctuating market obviously, and be a different concept obviously. Sports cards address the issue as others said the idea is not in use with other markets, so I gave examples based on those questions.
I am out, I will go talk to my geckos about this as they will have more valuable chirps about this.
Aquapimp, your one liners are getting old and hold no value to anyone, even I am sure they do not make your pathetic life feel any closer to valuable.
 

aquapimp

New member
Wow, man. It was a joke. Sorry that you failed to see a little humor. Oddly, I anticipated a reply like that. I totally understand the need to do as you are suggesting for the truly endangered or threatened species, yet feel that a "regulatory agency" is nearly impossible. There is no "breed standard" for Gekkonid species to my knowledge. They are not DOMESTICATED as in some "examples" given.

I was serious, however in the fact that I often (as well as others) rotate a couple males through several females, in their colonies. This obviously hinders the "studbook" approach. It becomes difficult at that point to determine the true father of the offspring.

I can certainly vouch for the fact that many species I've worked with have the capacity to lay fertile eggs after cooling the following season, despite isolation from males.

I also think that "exceptional" specimens can fairly demand a higher price even if the species is "common". I guess "ugly" specimens of the rarest species would probably be worth "less" to most herpetoculturists too.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but I was under the impression that it was OK to voice an opinion here, as it is a public forum. I believe I've added some real-life situations that would need to be addressed before implementing a plan as you have suggested. Of course, I am open to ideas, be them one or two liners.
 

aquapimp

New member
Ethan,

Your ghost eyed bong blazer is truly an exceptional specimen:coverlaugh:. What is the best you can do on him, including shipping?
 
Last edited:

aquapimp

New member
On a serious note (phew!) has anyone used any "DNA testing" in their projects? I am curious as to the actual collection of the DNA and what costs are associated with these tests. Where are the samples analyzed?
 

Reptiluvr

New member
Not that I know anything about economics, but could maintaining standards such as Boone's keeping bloodlines and locale specifics top of the line help to keep prices up? And how could this be done seeing as how not too many people get to travel into certain countries to collect geckos.
 

Bowfinger

New member
Aquapimp, it just sounded a little sarcastic the whole time but Im not really upset, I have got like 20 projects today and bounce on and off the topic. If you where joking and all your (phew) remarks are jokes then its all good I love to joke and just need to recognize you will be here to add jokes to the topic, sort of like the clown. It will be like Public Enemy and you are Flave. As for DNA testing there are a lot of people doing this for private studies right now, and it is common in many other animals including the NOT DEMESTICATED birds.

Reptiluvr, Boone was an example but only a fraction of the idea.
 
Top