Whats up with Aussie Geckos?

[kanopy]

Yes, they all just worth what people are willing to pay for them, that's what we could resume when we want to link a living creature with a price. That in anyway means the 1$ gecko is less interesting than a 1000$ one. Also I understand it's a pity to breed some species and offer strong specimens without being able to sell them for 5$. I also recognize people use to make too strong link between the price and the interesting aspect of a species and I believe there is no sense to sell a gecko at 5$ as too often, lower is the price and lower is the interest of people. So breeding this kind of species seems to be quite problematic, above all if the issue of the offsprings is to end in petshops.
I would also like to see the biggest array of species being kept and flourish in captivity, but I also think the community of serious people is not so wide, so I also see a limit to that idea, far from me the idea to tell you keep only one kind of species, but I understand some species are quite in demand at one time and others not at all, but also the wheel turns one day.
There are for sure some conditons for a species to be sold at a more expensive price than others and to find interested buyers, among them is the fact there are no or a really few imports. For sure the day Madagascar will limit the export of Uroplatus to US, you will see their price increase up to asking yourself if it is still decent. Those are such appealling geckos that they will for sure carry on drawing a big demand, even bigger du to the limit offer (what is rare can only be interesting (lol), we come back to what make the people not interested in your 5$ geckos today)
Fred

 

[aquapimp]

Well written response, Fred.

Just a comment: how have Aussies been so "marketed"? I 've never seen a commercial for them, or caught a catchy 'lil jingle on the radio about them. In publications such as Reptiles, Vivarium, Fauna, Dactylus I find that the coverage has always been quite well distributed amongst many genera.

People like them, they sell.

No one has even mentioned the designer leopard gecko market yet.

As I expressed earlier Starry Night Exotics, you work with some awesome, obscure, downright freakin' cool species that I have always been a fan of. I've also kept many of them. They are all "undervalued" IMO.

 

[Bowfinger]

If any of those on your $5 list came from Australia, they would be worth more. It is the concept that everyone wants to collect a group, genus or continent. The reason Marcus does not work with Mosabe or he would have to take in the whole genus, I feel the same. As for being "marketed", they along with leopards and New Caledonian species all are very marketed in the hobby more so than any other geckos. Australia has been very marketed in all aspects...thats where the "women blow and the men thundaa!" (theres your jingle) The reptile diversity is like no other and amazing, and many old timers came home with suit cases of them when that was easy. Now they slip a few here and there as there is a glorified market and worth the efforts. I think the most genius person would be wise to find another undescribed species outside of Australia, and call it Australian to fetch a $3,000 tag instead of a hard to pull $300.
But, greed always catches up, lets see how many of those highly marketed geckos fall under the disease rampant in those collections not admitted by most Ausie,NC and leopard breeders.

 

[Starrynightexotics]

Im not so sure theyve been "marketed" on any sort of scale.. but word of mouth, opinions of respected individuals, can all amount to the same thing (although I do see pop culture as factoring in the whole Australia craze, so perhaps some by blow marketing) I wasnt being very clear there, but thats just another thing that didnt make much sense to me, as they arent marketed the way Leopards etc are. Although to clear one thing up froma previous post of mine.. I do see our "market" as of course being the biggest issue.. I think priority number one should be making the market make sense.

It all boils down to what people will pay, and Im really just trying to figure out what makes these geckos illicit that response, whether for some its something intrinsic or a product of some sort of hype?

I agree, most geckos are highly undervalued, in reading through the stable market postings, alot of those folks have great points too.. at the very least if we had pricing guidelines these disparities wouldnt be so huge, as the commonalities between these animals would serve as a level starting point. In my minds eye, off the top of my head, the ideal would be to see the upper end of gecko prices drop by 20% while seeing the lower range rise by a a larger margin, simply due to the bottom of the range being so far down among the rocks. Honestly, I see $5 dollar pricetags on some things and it just seems insulting, then you turn around, see nearly the same thing from a different place go for exponentially more, and theres a little injury to sweeten it.

Bottom line, "theyre worth what people will pay", I wish more folks would think hard on that phrase from all angles.. theres a ton of power hidden inside it.

That said, I appreciate all the replies.. and I appreciate this not degenerating into something it didnt need to be. Also hope my attempts at interjecting humor werent taken the wrong way. We're all in the same boat and I really dont think alienating people is the way to go.. but sometimes you just have to be honest about what youre really thinking.

 

[aquapimp]

Another great post SNE.

 

[Bowfinger]

Starynight, Honesty is the only way to do it, nice post. I do think as "marketing" on the level of comparing who has received more pro-photography, pro-website sales, book and magazine coverage with high detail, shown on TV and offered at high prices at shows with banners, I think Australian Geckos, New Caledonian Geckos and Leopard Geckos have been marketed better than say Bowfinger geckos. It is the subtle "marketing" we forget, yet uncontiously we remember when prices are offered. I like to add a twist to the phrase, "they are worth what people are convinced they are worth." I guess I need to market other species better...

 

[aquapimp]

I think you hit the nail on the head, Bowfinger. It is up to the herpetoculturist to help elevate their species to "moviestar" status. EVERY species is "cool" in their own way, and sometimes needs help in their presentation. I have to "work" hard sometimes to impress upon someone why a $300 drab coral is my favorite. 9 out of ten aquarists don't listen. It is such a reward to have the 10% come back, and thank me for introducing them to it.

 

[aquapimp]

One other thing I forgot to mention:

All the great photography work of their animals, awesome in-the-field shots of habitat, and especially, examples of what Healthy, CB offspring look like are all influencing the "market" already.

An example that comes to mind is of the recent posts made of H. africanus. The CB animals are simply gorgeous. While the imports are a little "rough" to say the least.

CB G.gekko and G. vittatus are also pretty obvious examples of this.

While I'm sure I'll always be an Aussiophile, I also look forward to seeing what the "next wave" in this hobby will bring:yahoo:.

 

[Ken Bartenfeld]

Hmmm...Aussies are BANNED from being exported and you GOTO JAIL if you get caught smuggling them. Maybe that could be a reason?

There are some bowfinger geckos that would demand a hefty price i'm sure...same with some of the Gonatodes. It's personal opinons on what you like. Some years with Aussies you have great years and productive ones, while some years you just don't get any geckos or very very few. I'm sure it's like that with a lot of other geckos too. I don't even like most of the Aussie geckos, only a few. And I would love to keep some of the cooler climate species or some of the ones who demand increased levels of humidity, I just don't have time to mist 2-3 times a day or maintain them like I(or others) would. It would be a shame to have them die while someone else can keep them and attend to them more than I would. I don't really know the point of the whole post, just my two cents again ;-)

 

[Reptiluvr]

What Ken said is relevant. It's kind of like the narcotics market minus addiction, killing and movies. Anything made illegal is worth more and more desirable. "You always want what you can't have". I think one market that is dumbfounding in the fact that it has not risen to Aussie 'stardom' is South American and Caribbean geckos. Gonatodes are making their way but still prices are only mid-range when these animals are very rarely imported. They happen to also be extremely beautiful (especially males) and fun to watch diurnal geckos. Only Phelsuma could truly rival them in being display geckos.
Leopard Geckos I see as an investment and natural art market. They have fabulous colors but most people get in to make a few bucks off pretty lizards. Crested Geckos are the same but with a lack of simple recessive genes it seems and a "box of chocolates" for that years offspring. Still the geckos are sold at high prices for low quality gene pools and the two most common CB species in the US (probably elsewhere too).
Are South American species illegal to bring in? I don't know, but if they are why aren't YOU paying $2k/pair for them?

 

[Reptiluvr]

Before I'm attacked, YOU in my last sentence is directed to any person reading this, not any individual. Rhetoric.

 

[Torin]

It seems to me like a lot of people who sale these gecko's look for who is charging the most, and then charge a little more than that. They try to constantly find the limit of what people will pay. Kind of bad for their wallets in the long run, because the gecko's will sell much slower, and in smaller quantities.

 

[ptenopus]

Australia is most definitely NOT the only country that has banned export. Matter of fact, there are more countries that DO NOT allow export that DO. And to honest i think I'd rather be in an AU prison that a Nicaraguan prison...but thats just me. Aussie geckos are cool....some of em are down right insane....but so is Phyllopezus......so is Luperosaurus....etc. When you flip through an old(or new) GEKKO magazine, you will see many articles about various AU geckos...keeping, breeding, etc. You dont see many articles about keeping and breeding other obscure species....you DO see them, but not as often. Most articles written about obscure species are more of a natural history report, or something similar. Bottom line, people dont get the info they need. If i was just getting into geckos, or just about to drop my first big piece of cash on a gecko...i would feel a lot better having an article in a mag, or a section in a book to go to, rather than take a stab in the dark and drop $500 on an animal that may die because i dont know what the hell im doing. A second point....the "big black curtain". Alot of extremely rare species are in captivity and the people that keep them dont want people to know they have em. They dont want to sell em. They dont want to ever see them be sold on a forum. Its a serious slap in the face to some people to see a species like D.tesselatus go from about $400 to about $200 in 10 years, but Hemi triedrus goes from $300 to $50 in one year!!?? Dont blame the gecko..... AU geckos are great geckos, and if the demand is there, get what ya can! But geckophiles.....blame the knuckle-heads low balling, and selling species for dirt cheap, and applaud the guys putting in hard work and scratching out a monthly cricket bill when they sell an animal for the price it deserves...AU or not. If you cant sell your babies.....big deal....quit crying....this aint the stock market. last i time i checked we were hear cause we loved geckos.

 

[Brian]

Well maybe prices remain high because it's fairly certian that no new animals will come in in theory. Even if they did they'd command high prices (self creating cycle) simply because the current prices are so high. Now if only a few people have these and if they are willing to sit on them until they sell the price stays the same. When new people aquire them if they do the same thing price changes very slowly.

Also, assume most people breed for money. They want a sure thing. What better way then to work with something that will not be undercut (i.e. 10,000 wc coming in). As long as people don't get desperate and start massive price cutting things will just stay high.

There's an assumption that if someone can afford a 1000 lizard they must somehow be better or they'll treat it well which isn't always the case. I've seen enough reject birds of high value donated to zoo's and put up for adoption that were worth more then 1K.

If you really like a cheap species then simply keep enough that you have your own self sustaining or almost self sustaining colony. You don't have to breed them every year and as long as you don't think they need to "earn" their keep you won't necasarily be stuck with a ton of unsellable offspring or be worried about the food bills. Keep a bunch of males and you can generate a lot of unrelated offspring. Can't do it for everything, but you can probably do that for a few favorites.

 

[Starrynightexotics]

Awesome points everybody, wish I had more time to touch upon everything thats been brought up.

Ken, the point is that the Aussie situation is in no way unique, but still the animals command prices like they do, I guess another point is Aussie species dont have a monopoly on being "awesome". There is an assumption out there that if you can spend $1000 on a gecko you are somehow more qualified or something, or will appreciate it more. While I find that true to an extent, Brian brought up a great point there... and Id have to add, when does the point of making sure the animals go to people who understand their worth, cross the line?

As far as Gonatodes goes, I talked alot with the few others I could find working with them, and the consensus is that the price ranges we're working with are not only reasonable for the animals in question, theyre also accessible to most people, with the added bonus that, these prices should remain stable for years and years to come. I know you wont see my prices get any lower (or higher)than they are right now. Ill decorate my house with them if I have to I mean, itd just be a matter of sticking to our guns and waiting until people gave in to command high end Aussie like prices, and I suppose, to extrapolate, this is a great example... and Ptenopus touched upon it rather well.. which prison would you rather be in? South American or Australian? Id also rather be driving through the Pilbara at night with a beer in one hand and the AC cranked as opposed to slogging through some dense jungle ( to paraphrase someone who knows first hand).

One of those things thats neither here nor there, but it makes you think, not to mention the simple fact of how many SA (just for example) species do you see in the hobby as opposed to many other regions? And Im sorry, but I fail to see how a limited gene pool is good reasoning for higher prices. If its really to that point the breeders should be getting together and working on diversifying the bloodlines as much as they can before releasing animals to the public in which case theres really no control.

Id argue that although difficult, it is possible to bring things back legally from SA, Im sure there are loopholes in the Australian laws as well.. you just have to find them, it seems as though there are a very few select individuals in the states who have their thumb on the Aussie pulse, perhaps the information is already out there.. in fact I recently saw a thread on this forum about obtaining new blood from Australia, dont remember the details but perhaps someone who does or who has time to find that thread could chime in.

Im not trying to pick on anything here besides discrepencies and double standards (and honestly, some of the elitist attitudes Ive run into over the past few years).. not any individuals or species. Geckos is geckos and peoples is people, the problems are some of the things that get blindly accepted as right and/or unchangeable. Again, I think its pretty cool we can have this discussion maturely, thanks everyone.

 

[Geitje]

While we have picked on Aussie geckos here, bare in mind that there are a "few" others that are also priced very high that have yet to be toppled (ex. Naultinus, Rhaco. leachianus, etc.). But, the topic here is why Aussie geckos are still high in price. There are a few reasons for it. Number one - supply and demand around the time Aussie geckos were first really popularized (mid 1990's). This was largely driven by the sudden appearance of various Nephrurus in the hobby and the breeders who stood their ground and demanded price tags that befitted their investment costs to get them going. And then, bang! - albino pilbarensis, patternless pilbarensis, etc. The lure of big money into geckos was a sensation. Almost immediately, other Aussie species were "automatically" dubbed "rare" too. Diplodactylus appeared, and were sold for prices that were 4-10 times greater than I saw them advertised at by dealers just a few years before (ex. Hogtown Herp in Gainseville, FL - Strophurus elderi for under $100each). Oedura escalated too - particularly with the commercial lure of "yet another albino" (despite the fact that a breeder in San Diego, CA bred the first amel of this species back in about 1984!!!!!!!). Nowhere else in the gecko hobby could one find the layers of marketable species and the stout price tags that went along with it. Phyllurus came in, Saltuarius came in, I even brought Rhynchoedura in. Should we discuss the legality of that? You might as well close this forum. I, personally, imported to the US several Aussie species (with valid documents) for the first time. Sure there are loopholes. There are loopholes in daycare regulations too - who gives a damn? The fact is that Australia is one of about 90% of the countries on the face of this planet that protects their native fauna. That's not exactly special. The real question is - which countries do allow export? There are not very many. The rest of the facts surrounding import/export is superfluous drivel - unless of course, you're importing and exporting.

The reason Aussie geckos have not descreased in value is simple - the breeders that advertise them have chosen to not disturb their market (by a pop-surprise "lookie get em while they're cheap") primarily due to the fact that they want their money back for their investment. In the mid 90's a precedent was set with these species, and anyone who elected to buy them subsequently stuck to their guns to insure they got their money back. The prices have been dropping, that you can be sure of. I remember damaeum and tesselatus going for $400-500each. I remember levis going for $1000each. The point is that these animals had a long way to fall from their unprecedented price tags they were commanding just a few years ago. I remember popping out a pure white pilbarensis (snow white with eyes that were so red you could not find the animal's pupils) in the mid 90's. A dealer was talking with me on the phone and offered an absolutely silly price for the beast - sight unseen (I turned it down because the creature was in my mind - blind).

Other geckos have dropped quicker because of the low prices they started out at. Start a rare and unique gecko at $50 and guess what happens? I saw this crap happen with Phelsuma in the mid 90's. Nephrurus were going through the roof, and Phelsuma guttata were being sold to pet shops for $9each. People threw their Phelsuma out and "invested" in Aussie geckos. Today, I'm still trying to fix the Phelsuma shortages and all the while fighting the officials for bonafide CITES documents just to get them re-established here in the USA. Do you think after I get them here after years, countless hours, expensive travel, very expensive shipping costs, possible deaths along the way, dealing with selective enforcement from agencies around the world - that I'm going to sell my Phelsuma for $20ea.? Do I think that Phelsuma heilscheri is worth $1000? Not really. But I'm not selling any Phelsuma comorensis anytime soon for $15-20each! People just do not understand the work involved in getting species through legal channels and into the US and the gecko hobbyist's hands. It only takes one person to be the fly in the ointment with a market, as I remember several years ago the following add -
I also have a few baby Rough Knob Tails!
I have decided to let 3 of my 4 month old N.asper go!
These are awesome shades of grey with cool green/purple eyes! I am desperate
for room so I will take just $300 each or all 3 for $750!

Posted by: Frank
Homepage: n/a
Posted on 10/06/99 20:24:11 PDT

Female Knob Tails!!!!!
Well here we are! I have 5 awesome orange female
N.levis levis! They are only 1 year old and never have bred! I am asking only
$250 each! These are healthy butterballs! Just need room! Hurry!

Posted by: Frank
Homepage: n/a
Posted on 10/06/99 20:20:53 PDT

Someone posted an add just to create a ripple in the market. Nobody in October of 1999 was selling Nephrurus asper for $300each. That you can be sure of. However, the thought of seeing prices like that disturbed the market and prices, especially when posted on Kingsnake.com (yeah, I saved it in a humor file!). I remember circulating a word document price list of mine around the same time. On the list were several "rare Aussie" geckos I routinely bred at that time. I had several Diplodactylus, Oedura, etc. I sold most of my Diplodactylus galeatus in the last 90's for about $700ea. Someone forwarded my list on to others, and with it being a Microsoft word document, they just went in and changed my prices of various species to their liking. I had a "breeder" in the pacific northwest screaming about why I had ruined the market for galeatus. I did not. All it took was someone posting/manipulating an advertising medium. Needless to say, when someone asks me to forward a computer generated list these days - well, I do not.

So what it boils down to is several things. There is not a simple answer to a complex problem. There are many factors that play into the marketability of a species. The first and most obvious - the breeder just wanting to recoup what he invested in the animal in the first place. When it's a high price - he will most likely not sell them for $20ea. The next biggest factor - the different levels of the market. Importers offering something (fresh from nature) for nearly nothing when you're trying to sell your captive born for substantially higher on the same advertising medium. Someone overseas offering the species for 20% of what you would offer them for is another wrecking ball (and then the buyer thinking - huh, I'll just go to Hamm and get them cheaper - without thinking about shipping costs, etc.). The internet is a marvelous tool for both front end and rear end work.

The rest is just dealing with it.

Collect on!

Jon

 

[Palex134]

which countries do allow export? There are not very many.

Id be interested in seeing a list

great post Jon&everyone

 

[Starrynightexotics]

Wow Jon, puts things in perspective!

 

[Reptiluvr]

It's expensive to fly to South Africa and back to get your own geckos? Who would have known...LOL. At $300 a pop somebody is making a major profit now on those asper ;-)
It would be very interesting to see which countries do and don't export. Jon where could we find such a list?

 

[Geitje]

Id be interested in seeing a list

I do not think that such a list exists. Just think about what countries actually export commercially. Egypt, Madagascar (becoming more and more limited with Phelsuma and Uroplatus now CITES II), Ghana, Tanzania, Surinam, Malaysia, and Nicaragua. I know there might be a couple of more, but really not many more. Take these known exporting countries and factor that into the "rare gecko" recipe/definition.

Sure, there are exceptions made for people in various countries, depending upon how the proposals, connections, and other factors (scientific, zoological, research, etc.) weigh in. Then there are the sporadic ones that ship for a year or two and then shut down. But the meat of it - most countries are not exporting.....period.

Even Australia exported up until 1974.

Jon