Subspecies interbreeding

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acpart

Well-known member
I'm wondering what people think about crossing subspecies, specifically, Coleonyx variegatus bogerti and Coleonyx variegatus variegatus. Information would be helpful also about what their various native ranges are and whether there is interbreeding in the wild if their ranges overlap or border each other. Having owned both subspecies, I don't find them very different in appearance.

ALiza
 
Elizabeth Freer

Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Aliza ~

Why mix things up? Each gecko is beautiful in itself! If one gecko does not please you, there are many others from which to choose.

I feel that it is our jobs as geckophiles to keep species and subspecies pure.
 
perenquen

perenquen

New member
are the subspecies of C. variegatus still valid? In the book "Die Lidgeckos/the Eyelash Geckos" (Suefer, Kaverkin, Kirschner) they state that the "former" subspecies are now considered only "colour morphs" ??
 
avoidtheboyd

avoidtheboyd

New member
Its possible to do. But why do it? They're are obviously reasons in the wild that make them not so why try to defy mother nature?
 
perenquen

perenquen

New member
my opinion is this: if it is true, that there is no scientific reason to divide the species into subspecies (as I mentioned above is current tendency), then probably their genetic variability across the range is not very big and would not be a big "sin" to mix individuals from different sites.

maybe in US you have plenty of them (and so there is no need to mix the "subspecies"), but here in central Europe where I live C.variegatus is quite rare. I got mine after few years of searching (although not very intense searching, I must confess :) ), but for me there should be dilema: breed together anything that I am able to get and so increase the genetic variability ("add new blood"), or breed just one "strain" and continue the imbreeding? ... here in Europe I think many of them are mixed already anyway...and I decided for the first option :) (that means I don´t even try hard to identify the "subspecies" that I have at home)
 
A

acpart

Well-known member
Here's why I have considered doing this, and the jury is still out: I currently have 1.1 C.v.v. which I hope to breed this season. Two seasons ago I bred C.v.b. (I don't currently have any) and sold one to a friend. He is giving his female back to me. My preference would be to house them together and also to be breeding 1.2 rather than 1.1. If it weren't for this circumstance I wouldn't be considering this, but it does take care of a number of issues. I have seen quite a bit of color and pattern variation in C.v.v. (my female is hypo and banded; the male I had until recently was spotted; the new male I acquired has ghost-like banded coloring) and also wonder if the C.v.b. is a true subspecies.

Aliza
 
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lampeye

New member
Keeping bloodlines pure "is a good thing," no doubt about it, but even if the subspecies are valid, the geckos don't recognize that - it's a known fact that they "intergrade" where their ranges meet. So, not a sin if you don't have locality data and a limited # of specimens....and as long as you label them simply as C. variegatus, and not some fanciful locality or as whatever subspecies/local form they resemble most.

acpart - where does that whole "Coleonyx variegatus brevis" thing come from ? I've seen Marcia label some that way, but AFAIK, C. brevis was elevated to a full species long ago. Is there something more recent that I've missed? I realize you're talking about ssp bogerti, most likely, but can you or anyone else clear up that question for me?
 
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acpart

Well-known member
Yes, I'm talking about "bogerti" not "brevis". I figured since it was "C.v.b." and not "C.b." there wouldn't be any confusion and I was hoping to save a bit on typing.

Aliza
 
Thorgecko707

Thorgecko707

New member
May affect future breeding. You can breed a horse and a donkey, but that makes a mule. Mules can't breed. Similar to leopard geckos that were bred with African fat-tails. Or leopard geckos bred with Texas banded geckos and Vietnamese cave geckos with cresteds.
 
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lampeye

New member
No, definitely not. Subspecies are still members of the same species. You already find regions of intergrading where the subspecies' ranges meet. What Thorgecko was talking about would not be an issue in this case. Some authorities don't even consider the subspecies valid, and they are simply described as regional variants.
 
Thorgecko707

Thorgecko707

New member
That makes sense. I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say. Sometimes I need a picture board to help me. Lol. I wonder since monitors and Komodo dragons are similar DNA if they would create a hybrid.
 
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acpart

Well-known member
Thorgecko707 said:
May affect future breeding. You can breed a horse and a donkey, but that makes a mule. Mules can't breed. Similar to leopard geckos that were bred with African fat-tails. Or leopard geckos bred with Texas banded geckos and Vietnamese cave geckos with cresteds.
Click to expand...

I'm not talking about breeding different species like leos and fat tails or C. bogerti and C. brevis, but about breeding subspecies which are the same species and quite similar to the point where it is a gray area as to how distinct they are.

Aliza
 
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