Important vitamins for Leo
- Thread starter Vee-vee
- Start date
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Hi Vee-vee ~
I use the Rep-Cal brand supplements: Phosphorous-free calcium with D3, 100% calcium, and Herptivite with Beta Carotene.
You should keep a small dish of 100% calcium in your leo's tank 24/7 and lightly dust his prey 2-3x per week with the calcium with D3. Phosphorous-free calcium with D3 is recommended because phosphorous interferes with the absorption of calcium. People have different takes on the use of multivitamins.
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SaSobek
Member
This is what i have used for 5-6 years now and works great i dont know if you can get this stuff over there in Europe but alot of the large breeders here in the USA use this stuff. Better hatch rates and less issues.
vionate mixture - YouTube
vionate mixture - YouTube
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
I strongly advise against any mixture which includes sand. One does not wish to have their leos get accustomed to eating sand. Hence, a strong recommendation against Calci-Sand substrate as well.
Is Vionate manufactured especially for birds? Bird Vitamins & Supplements: RH Vionate Powder at Drs Foster & Smith
There are multivitamin supplements available more closely matching the requirements of geckos, so why go to a Vionate mixture? Am curious on the % of vitamins and minerals which I have not yet found on my Google search. Too much Vitamin A can also be toxic and could result in kinky tails.
MauricesExoticPets
New member
All righty then.
Big breeders methods are not exactly always designed for use by pet owners, properly gut loaded insects and some sort of variety in feeder type would eliminate the need for all that vitamin powder.
Maurice Pudlo
Mardy
New member
Large scale breeders need to realize the advice they give usually do not apply to hobbyists or even other small scale breeders. Some of the advice given by large scale breeders are even harmful for new gecko owners that are still confused about how to properly care for their leopard geckos.
The advice about adding sand in the vitamin powder, that's very dangerous if given to hatchlings or small juveniles as their digestive tract aren't very large. You don't see that mentioned anywhere.
Also if this works for you, that's great. But fellow gecko hobbyists and owners need to realize the mortality rate with large scale breeders are also higher...and it's even to a point of being acceptable because when you handle geckos at such large quantities, you expect some to die. Often the cause of death is not determined because it's not worth their time & money to. Now take the same scenario with someone who owns 1 or 2 leopard geckos, death to even 1 of their geckos would be devastating. Would someone owning 1 leopard gecko want to chance doing something that could potentially be harmful and fatal to their gecko? I would think not.
And to answer Vee-vee, you want to dust your feeders with multi-vitamin powder, and leave a dish of calcium without D3 in the tank at all time. You don't need to mix them. There are other ways to do it, such as buying Repashy Calcium Plus, as this is an all-in-one supplement which if you use this to dust, you won't need to leave calcium inside their tank.
The advice about adding sand in the vitamin powder, that's very dangerous if given to hatchlings or small juveniles as their digestive tract aren't very large. You don't see that mentioned anywhere.
Also if this works for you, that's great. But fellow gecko hobbyists and owners need to realize the mortality rate with large scale breeders are also higher...and it's even to a point of being acceptable because when you handle geckos at such large quantities, you expect some to die. Often the cause of death is not determined because it's not worth their time & money to. Now take the same scenario with someone who owns 1 or 2 leopard geckos, death to even 1 of their geckos would be devastating. Would someone owning 1 leopard gecko want to chance doing something that could potentially be harmful and fatal to their gecko? I would think not.
And to answer Vee-vee, you want to dust your feeders with multi-vitamin powder, and leave a dish of calcium without D3 in the tank at all time. You don't need to mix them. There are other ways to do it, such as buying Repashy Calcium Plus, as this is an all-in-one supplement which if you use this to dust, you won't need to leave calcium inside their tank.
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Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
What do the directions say on your Exo-terra multivitamins?
The directions on Rep-Cal's Calcium with D3 suggest mixing it 1:1 with their Herptivite with Beta Carotene supplement. My pure calcium is a ZooMed sample, so I cannot see what the directions on the Rep-Cal pure calcium are.
Generally I just use the Rep-Cal with D3 for dusting 2-3x per week. Very infrequently do I dust with Herptivite or the 1:1 mix. D3 is a very important additive. D3 helps metabolize calcium just like for humans
!I will add that once long ago I fed mourning geckos some sweet potato baby food. They seemed to love it, but not too long afterwards kinky tails appeared. I tied those kinky tails to a vitamin A overdose.
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SaSobek
Member
the sand that is used is not calci sand. i agree calci sand is bad. The amount of sand that is in the mixture is not very much at all. and alot of time it is what is left in the bowl after every thing else is gone. why it is even used then? well this is the theory behind this. after the food items are gone the gecko often will lick the bowl clean as well. what the sand dose is act as the hard surface replacing the bugs keratin in the food item's exoskeleton to aid in the digestion. this is why you use sifted ultra fine sand that can pass easy. useing this method the last poops after a feeding almost look like solid vitamin powder. the reason for this is that the gecko takes the Vitamins it needs and excretes the rest.
Its is a multivitamin that can be used from dogs and cats to birds an reptiles.
i have tried and used different multivitamins and i have always come back to the vionate and a lot of fellow breeders have the same results. The sad part about the reptile industry is that there are no governing bodies like USDA that inspect and look at what the content of the things being bottled is. if they did calci sand would no longer be on the shelves it is a gimic to sell something. really a bedding that is good to eat for them to get calcium ?
the other thing that i know alot of breeders do is get a bunch of different multivitamins and calcium and mix it all together figureing what the one dosen t provide that the others may.
there is also proven cases of calcium powder that do nothing in some species of geckos (especially day geckos). that is why Repashy Superfoods is working on species specific calcium for for specific species. i believe it is julie bergmen of gecko ranch is helping him with this.
if you would like a picture of the % of every thing in Vionate i can try to get you one.
yes you can mix them and as i said above you can try getting other types as well to add to the mix for a more well rounded mixture.
good point about gut loading and the variety of food items.
Mandy and Maurice.
you are right people with small collections may not be able to do things that big breeders do. but i think classifying them as people that dont care about the individual gecko is wrong. i am still considered a larger breeder but i am no where near the size of the huge breeders that hatch out 10's of thousands a year. i hatch about 1000-1500 geckos a year and they all mean something to me i have geckos that worth thousands and i have some species that there are only around 20 in captivity. trust me i dont want any of that stuff to get any kind of health issues or even die. i trust my collection to this method and it works for me. the question was what works and that was my way and what works for me.
we all will have different ways of looking at this. i just wanted to add my experience and try to help out. its been a while sence i have posted and just wanted to came back and help a bit.
I would love to answer any question or any thing that you might have.
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Thanks to Maurice:
"Think of vitamin D3 as the key to the vault that stores calcium, all the calcium in the world does no good if you do not have the key to get in there.
A key being very small is all that is needed, but without it you are out of luck.
As mentioned above, phosphorous in your calcium is not always a good thing. All geckos need phosphorous but it is not often more than is already in the insects they consume.
Calcium, Phosphorous, and Vitamin D3 all work together to allow your gecko to form bones, and use its muscles correctly.
Vitamin D3 is one of those that is stored in the fat, thus when an excess is present it will get placed into storage for use when there is a shortage in the diet. If you keep providing an excess the possibility increases that the high level of stored vitamin D3 will become toxic.
Most of us that have been doing this for some time suggest lightly dusting feeders, this helps reduce the chance of excess vitamins being consumed by our geckos, leos are among a number of geckos that will take powdered calcium right out of a dish to self adjust their calcium level, if they need more they will consume more.
Maurice Pudlo"
"Think of vitamin D3 as the key to the vault that stores calcium, all the calcium in the world does no good if you do not have the key to get in there.
A key being very small is all that is needed, but without it you are out of luck.
As mentioned above, phosphorous in your calcium is not always a good thing. All geckos need phosphorous but it is not often more than is already in the insects they consume.
Calcium, Phosphorous, and Vitamin D3 all work together to allow your gecko to form bones, and use its muscles correctly.
Vitamin D3 is one of those that is stored in the fat, thus when an excess is present it will get placed into storage for use when there is a shortage in the diet. If you keep providing an excess the possibility increases that the high level of stored vitamin D3 will become toxic.
Most of us that have been doing this for some time suggest lightly dusting feeders, this helps reduce the chance of excess vitamins being consumed by our geckos, leos are among a number of geckos that will take powdered calcium right out of a dish to self adjust their calcium level, if they need more they will consume more.
Maurice Pudlo"
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
Thanks to Hilde:
Here goes Hilde's post on D3:
Hilde
Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: S. Ontario Canada
"The gecko needs both calcium and Vit D3, so you need both to some extent.
Vit D3 helps absorb calcium (Ca). Without enough D3, the gecko won't be able to absorb enough Ca, resulting in MBD. Vit D also plays a role in cell growth, calcium/phosphate regulation, neuromuscular and immune functions.
With a properly balanced diet, the gecko can make D3 if exposed to UVB in the correct wavelength range (direct sunlight exposure or UVB bulbs which produce it in the correct range). Adding D3 to the diet forces the body to absorb it, possibly causing an overdose of D3 - which produces a form of MBD. Too much D3 or not enough can both result in MBD, so it's important to use the proper dosage. Vit D3 is fat soluble, meaning it is stored in the body, unlike some vitamins which are water soluble - excess is eliminated from the body making it almost impossible to overdose in healthy geckos. Once enough D3 has been absorbed, excess can start causing new problems. If the gecko gets the D3 via exposure to UVB, then there's no overdosing - the body only makes what it needs, making more as necessary.
If your gecko is healthy, has a balanced diet, then don't use D3 with every dusting. Depending on your feeding routine, every 2nd or 3rd feeding is probably enough. It also depends on how much D3 is added to the dusting - lots of D3 would mean including it less often, while skimping on D3 might mean including it at every feeding. It's hard to say how much and how often you should add D3 without knowing how much is in the vitamin or calcium supplement. Follow some of the suggested supplementing routines, watch the gecko carefully (it might take a few months to see if it's getting enough or too much), then adjust accordingly."
Here goes Hilde's post on D3:
Hilde
Super Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: S. Ontario Canada
"The gecko needs both calcium and Vit D3, so you need both to some extent.
Vit D3 helps absorb calcium (Ca). Without enough D3, the gecko won't be able to absorb enough Ca, resulting in MBD. Vit D also plays a role in cell growth, calcium/phosphate regulation, neuromuscular and immune functions.
With a properly balanced diet, the gecko can make D3 if exposed to UVB in the correct wavelength range (direct sunlight exposure or UVB bulbs which produce it in the correct range). Adding D3 to the diet forces the body to absorb it, possibly causing an overdose of D3 - which produces a form of MBD. Too much D3 or not enough can both result in MBD, so it's important to use the proper dosage. Vit D3 is fat soluble, meaning it is stored in the body, unlike some vitamins which are water soluble - excess is eliminated from the body making it almost impossible to overdose in healthy geckos. Once enough D3 has been absorbed, excess can start causing new problems. If the gecko gets the D3 via exposure to UVB, then there's no overdosing - the body only makes what it needs, making more as necessary.
If your gecko is healthy, has a balanced diet, then don't use D3 with every dusting. Depending on your feeding routine, every 2nd or 3rd feeding is probably enough. It also depends on how much D3 is added to the dusting - lots of D3 would mean including it less often, while skimping on D3 might mean including it at every feeding. It's hard to say how much and how often you should add D3 without knowing how much is in the vitamin or calcium supplement. Follow some of the suggested supplementing routines, watch the gecko carefully (it might take a few months to see if it's getting enough or too much), then adjust accordingly."
Elizabeth Freer
Well-known member
SaSobek ~
Yes, I'd appreciate a picture listing Vionate ingredients. There was a multivitamin I used briefly some years back. Recall it to have been mainly for birds and that it was very high in vitamin A by reptile standards.
By mixing a small amount of sand into your vitamin mix are you not creating your own calci-sand on a low scale?
I have used the extremely fine Jurassic Playsand by the Sandman as a substrate for Pachydactylus tigrinus and mixed 50:50 long ago for my Oedura castelnaui. I no longer use it for the latter! Even the wee amount of sand attached to a cricket (sprayed and fed simultaneously by mistake) was enough to cause one of my Oedura castelnaui to prolapse.
Yes, I'd appreciate a picture listing Vionate ingredients. There was a multivitamin I used briefly some years back. Recall it to have been mainly for birds and that it was very high in vitamin A by reptile standards.
By mixing a small amount of sand into your vitamin mix are you not creating your own calci-sand on a low scale?
I have used the extremely fine Jurassic Playsand by the Sandman as a substrate for Pachydactylus tigrinus and mixed 50:50 long ago for my Oedura castelnaui. I no longer use it for the latter! Even the wee amount of sand attached to a cricket (sprayed and fed simultaneously by mistake) was enough to cause one of my Oedura castelnaui to prolapse
.
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Vee-vee
New member
So in my vitamin powder is:
Crude Protein (min) 14.0%
Crude Fat (min) 1.2%
Crude Fiber (max) 8.0%
Moisture (max) 12.0%
Ash (max) 9.0%
Calcium (min) 4.4%
Calcium (max) 4.6%
Salt (max) 0.00275%
Potassium (min) 0.0033%
Sulfur (min) 0.011%
Magnesium 2 ppm
Iron 77 ppm
Copper 2.5 ppm
Zinc 6.5 ppm
Iodine 0.75 ppm
Manganese 6.5 ppm
Choline 81.44 mg/lb
4.4% Menadione 0.907 mg/lb
4.6% Biotin 0.004 mg/lb
Inositol 4.989 mg/lb
Beta Carotene 4.082 mg/lb
Vitamin D3 9,979 IU/lb
Vitamin E 45.3 IU/lb
How often may I douse insect in this powder?
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MauricesExoticPets
New member
Without knowing the powders phosphorus content there is no answer to your question, you can mix it with calcium, sure, but how much is going to be the correct quantity, who knows.
Why your powder contains protein and fat I have no idea, but for most insectivorous geckos I would see that part as a questionable addition to the mix at least at the level of concentration listed.
Maurice Pudlo
Why your powder contains protein and fat I have no idea, but for most insectivorous geckos I would see that part as a questionable addition to the mix at least at the level of concentration listed.
Maurice Pudlo
Vee-vee
New member
MauricesExoticPets
New member
SaSobek,
I'm quite sure the method works for you. I am in no way discounting the value of your methods in your situation.
What we tend to forget as Breeders is the difference between mass production and pets or hobby breeding. I've done it, and have had to step back for a moment and check myself.
When I was producing Leos in the quantity you are now, I did things a bit differently that your average pet owner would, it worked and worked well, yet and still those methods aren't what the enthusiast would find acceptable by today's higher standards.
Look at breeders such as Ron Tremper, he can and does produce many thousands of Leos per year, but any enthusiast will scoff at his methods, it is no longer "the ends justify the means" it is all about the methodology that gets you there.
The massive movement toward organic foods, environmental responsibility, animal rights and their quality of life are important to today's picky customer. In our field of work we need to consider this.
My reply was sharp, and could have been better, yet I think it illustrated the general feeling all enthusiastic Leo owners have toward the addition of sand in your mixture.
To be quite honest I would try to reformulate that mixture, possibly replacing the sand component with powdered freeze dried insects for example.
Maurice Pudlo
I'm quite sure the method works for you. I am in no way discounting the value of your methods in your situation.
What we tend to forget as Breeders is the difference between mass production and pets or hobby breeding. I've done it, and have had to step back for a moment and check myself.
When I was producing Leos in the quantity you are now, I did things a bit differently that your average pet owner would, it worked and worked well, yet and still those methods aren't what the enthusiast would find acceptable by today's higher standards.
Look at breeders such as Ron Tremper, he can and does produce many thousands of Leos per year, but any enthusiast will scoff at his methods, it is no longer "the ends justify the means" it is all about the methodology that gets you there.
The massive movement toward organic foods, environmental responsibility, animal rights and their quality of life are important to today's picky customer. In our field of work we need to consider this.
My reply was sharp, and could have been better, yet I think it illustrated the general feeling all enthusiastic Leo owners have toward the addition of sand in your mixture.
To be quite honest I would try to reformulate that mixture, possibly replacing the sand component with powdered freeze dried insects for example.
Maurice Pudlo