Superworm Feeding Caution (Zophobas morio) -- cricket4u

DragonsMaelstrom

New member
Those nasty older Jamaican field crickets, Gryllus assimilis, were biting me :roll:. Thank goodness I recently found a permanent source for my favs the Acheta domestica---the gentle brown crickets.

Don't know if the cricket farmers?/ranchers? have gotten a handle on the disease that was sweeping through the captive populations of Acheta domestica or not. My understanding is that the captive populations in Europe were all but wiped out. Fortunately for the European hobbyists, there were already several alternative feeders available. The disease did make it "over the pond" and cleaned out a number of feeder cricket suppliers in the US. Has anyone heard if this is still a major problem?

Yeah. I know how you feel.... I sometimes have to go searching all over the place to get the brown crickets.... I've been considering more and more of starting my own feeder colonies.

Considering how much cricket colonies stink (literally), if you do go the route of raising your own, do so in a well ventilated area with a screen on the bin. The 'stink factor' has been a major motivator for several herp/invert hobbyists I've chatted with to switch to roaches. (Another perk is roaches don't chirp at all hours of the night. :evil: )
 

cricket4u

New member
It's unfortunate roaches are not allowed in Canada, but at least they have access to phoenix worms, silkworms and hornworms that they can add to the diet. The crickets are manageable if kept in a 10 gallon tank (lots of ventilation), bought in a small size so they won't chirp (geckos are small so they do not need the large size). Also if you scoop the poop once a day and keep things clean they rarely stink.
 
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Elizabeth Freer

Well-known member
Don't know if the cricket farmers?/ranchers? have gotten a handle on the disease that was sweeping through the captive populations of Acheta domestica or not. My understanding is that the captive populations in Europe were all but wiped out. Fortunately for the European hobbyists, there were already several alternative feeders available. The disease did make it "over the pond" and cleaned out a number of feeder cricket suppliers in the US. Has anyone heard if this is still a major problem?

Considering how much cricket colonies stink (literally), if you do go the route of raising your own, do so in a well ventilated area with a screen on the bin. The 'stink factor' has been a major motivator for several herp/invert hobbyists I've chatted with to switch to roaches. (Another perk is roaches don't chirp at all hours of the night. :evil: )
The denso virus decimated some USA cricket suppliers. There are, however, several major suppliers who have viable populations of Acheta domestica and who are taking stringent precautions to ensure their continued availability!

I think the key to "stinky crickets" is controlling the moisture you provide. Mostly I feed a dry diet with the exception of carrots and collard greens. To provide moisture, I spray a paper towel which is layered atop the egg crates about every other day depending upon the weather. Keeping the crickets at room temperature extends their lives. They don't grow as quickly.

I keep my crickets in open 56 quart Sterilite bins.
 
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JIGSAW818

New member
The eating through the stomache rumor that never ends:lol:

You don't think super worms can at least do some damage inside? I find it hard to believe that a lot of reptile owners don't think this is possible.. I'm not talking about eating through the stomach but biting to some extent just until the worm dies? Look at how many people on these forums say " leo stopped eating... gecko stopped eating... blood in feces...."" questions asked what are you feeding them? " Super worms... Meal worms."

Just something to think about. + Anything is possible you know? Accidents happen...

Also sorry for your loss PantherGecko.. That picture is saddening.
 

cricket4u

New member
You don't think super worms can at least do some damage inside? I find it hard to believe that a lot of reptile owners don't think this is possible.. I'm not talking about eating through the stomach but biting to some extent just until the worm dies? Look at how many people on these forums say " leo stopped eating... gecko stopped eating... blood in feces...."" questions asked what are you feeding them? " Super worms... Meal worms."

Just something to think about. + Anything is possible you know? Accidents happen...

Also sorry for your loss PantherGecko.. That picture is saddening.

That comment had nothing to do with the photo. I don't think it was Panthergecko's leo. He provided a link to that website in which the person provided the picture. I don't feed superworms at all due to the fat content and possibility of biting. I guess you did not realize I was the one who started the thread as a warning.

The description "eating through the stomach is improper. Can they bite internally? Under certain conditions I believe so. Within a few seconds of the worm entering the mouth, if not chewed enough and/or fed to a weak and ill reptile.
 
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cricket4u

New member
I think the key to "stinky crickets" is controlling the moisture you provide.

Agree! I change the all water sources daily and keep the dry and wet food on the opposite corners. I also keep them in a room where it's 70-75 degrees and it slows their growth allowing them to live longer.


Not the breeder crickets Elizabeth.
 
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BrooklynJoe

New member
While I do agree Superworms are pretty feisty based on my recent discovery of one trying to nick me a few times over. I do not believe a lot of the problems/claims. I think it varies. Some owners of leos maybe feeding supers to smaller geckos making it more difficult to digest the exoskeleton. Though they can, please keep in mind geckos have been thriving in the wild eating all types of grub and bugs lol without us getting involved. I'm sure in captivity they can survive if cared for properly they can do the same. Take some precautions but as stated before switch to dubia's, turkishtan roaches, occasional worm medley, crickets as well and you will be fine.

Gecko diet from juvi to adult appropriate sized feeders

-Considering a pinkie for a female who may start breeding this or next season I want advice on that
-dubia is pretty much their staple diet, you dont need a lot to fill a leo & needed protein to fat ratio
-meal worm, bi weekly
-SUPERWORMS bi weekly usually two depending on the leo give or take a worm
-four wax worm, once a month
-two butter worms
-20 or more crickets weekly, i try to stay away from "field" crickets because those buggers jump high and chew threw things worst than "house" crickets

As this diet is working out fine for my leos it may not for others. Try to mix up what you can afford, what is safe for the leos and what is best for you to mix-in I have heard of locust being fed and many others. I am very leary about feeding certain bugs and having certain bugs or feeders.
Also when animals are presented to the pet trade extensive research has been done to see if they are marketable, so with the animals comes a market of feeders or what is being told they should be fed because the animal(s) can thrive. I remember when I hated leos a dealer tried his best to sell me one saying "all they need is calcium and a crickets thats it buddy". BS !!! The dude was selling crickets on his table along with the 8-9 leos.
 
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Riverside Reptiles

Administrator (HMFIC)
There's absolutely no reason to ever feed pinkies to a leo. They simply aren't healthy and if you want to keep/add weight to a breeding female, there are much healthier ways to go about it.
 

Mardy

New member
I'm late to the thread but I feel I should chime in on the potential dangers of superworms. Here's our story..

On Jan. 16th around 1am in the morning, I fed my beautiful super giant mack snow raptor a superworm. It was really just a treat, as she usually gets dubia roaches every other day. But she was looking through the tank, looking cute, so I dropped a superworm in the tank for her.

She gobbled up the worm, didn't get to chomp on the head and just swallowed it pretty much. I was instantly worried when I saw it, so I hopped online to start researching. Every sites/posts I've read, everybody said superworms are 100% safe, that all negative things said about superworms are myth. People suggested that a gecko's stomach acid would kill it instantly if the superworm isn't already dead going in. Anybody that attempted to suggest superworms could cause injuries to geckos were instantly shot down, called liars, called names, etc.. So having read that, I went to sleep feeling a bit better.

Next day everything carried on as usual. I noticed seeing her out and about a couple of times, didn't think much of it at first. Around 1pm I noticed there was a superworm on the floor of the tank, regurgitated, and fully intact. That's when I knew something was wrong, so I opened up the tank, and saw this:

http://www.onlinegeckos.com/media/superworm-injuries/superworm-injuries1.jpg

*The reason I'm putting these in as links and not embedding pictures directly into the thread, is because these pictures are graphic. So click on it on your own free will, but be warned they are images of blood, poop, and the nasty stuff.

I was horrified, and instantly panicked. The feeling was like witnessing something bad that just happened to your family/friends. I got really sick. And here's a pic of the regurgitated superworm:

http://www.onlinegeckos.com/media/superworm-injuries/superworm-injuries2.jpg

My poor gecko looked so pale and white, I thought for sure she was dead:

http://www.onlinegeckos.com/media/superworm-injuries/superworm-injuries3.jpg

Over the course of two weeks straight, she defecated blood at least twice a day. They looked like this:

http://www.onlinegeckos.com/media/superworm-injuries/superworm-injuries4.jpg

I did take her to the vet, an exotics animal vet that is familiar with leopard geckos. He was surprised she lived past the first day after seeing the pictures. But aside from that, he couldn't tell me where she was bleeding internally, he had no way to stop the bleeding. He even prescribed me Metronidazole, which is an antibiotic used to treat parasite infections. He thought the bleeding may have come from parasites, which I said was not the case.

But I took the dose home just in case, and went and got a fecal exam to make sure she did not have any parasites. The fecal exam came back negative, no parasite infection. I end up not giving her any antibiotics because blind treating her may end up making her weaker.

The vet also prescribed Carafate, which as explained to me is like a pepto-bismol for reptiles. Now that's something I could definitely see help, so I followed the instructions and gave her a smaller than instructed dose of it for a few days.

On the 3rd week, she finally stopped defecating blood. And a few days ago, she pushed out this pile of junk:

http://www.onlinegeckos.com/media/superworm-injuries/superworm-injuries5.jpg

I never thought I would get so excited looking at poop, but I really was excited looking at a poop that was not in a pool of blood. And two days ago, she started acting like she wanted to eat. There was a routine where when I opened the tank, she would poke her head out if she wants to eat, and she did that two days ago. So I fed her a dubia roach, she ate it without hesitation. I was honestly worried right then as maybe eating would've reopened whatever wound she had.

But I'm glad to say, she defecated without blood again, so looks like she fought through it and will be OK now :yahoo:

Here she is, still a bit pale, but she's starting to get color in her once again:

gecko-all-better.jpg


Compare this to when she was completely healthy, she has a ways to go yet. But at least she fought through it and she looks like she'll be fine. This is a video taken in December when she was healthy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eyYXeZphJyA


So if anybody ever has any doubts superworms can cause injuries to a leopard gecko, or even death, I hope this puts rest to that. Superworms have incredibly strong mandibles. Have you ever held a superworm and pressed your finger against its mouth? It'll bite, and you will hurt. That's how strong their mandibles are. If they can bite hard enough for us human skins to feel it, imagine what they can do inside a gecko's body.

Also by the looks of the regurgitated worm, it sure didn't look like it was dissolved in any way. So for people to suggest superworms will die of stomach acid right away is also wrong. The superworm will die eventually, but the problem is, what damages would it cause inside a gecko's stomach before dying?

Now I'm not advocating to stop using superworms completely. We still use superworms here, but we no longer just feed them anymore. We pinch their heads (which in effect breaking their mandibles). Some people don't want to do that because it's messy and takes time, but to know there's a chance your gecko could bleed out like mine did, or maybe die, do you really want to take that chance?

People can say this is a super rare occurrence, but I have doubts about that. In the internet age, we are finally seeing more people report such things on forums and on websites. Where as 10 years ago things like this could happen and nobody would know about it. Also the reptile vet I went to thought the blood came from parasite infection. That leads me to believe other people may have taken their geckos to vets when they saw blood in the poop, and be given antibiotics and called it a day. Some may have their geckos die and a novice owner would not even know the death may have been caused by a superworm.

To prove this isn't all that rare, just 2 weeks after this incident, we had another gecko that ate a superworm wrong. (This was prior to us deciding to pinch all superworm heads) She violently regurgitated this superworm after not chomping its head while it went in. She stopped eating for a few weeks due to it.

superworm-injures-again.jpg


Fortunately she did not bleed, so apparently the superworm didn't do the same type of injuries to this gecko. But it was bad enough for this gecko to regurgitate the superworm violently and stop eating completely. So twice in two weeks, rare? I must be just having bad luck if this is truly rare.

Anyways, on a brighter note, you guys notice how all the pics of the poop and blood were on the paper towel? This awesome gecko walked out of her hide to the corner even while she was really sick and bleeding internally, and she never made a mess outside of that corner. This is one special dear pet, and I'm so glad she fought through it. I was feeling really bad and responsible because I'm the owner that fed her a big juicy superworm. I listened to others that superworms were 100% safe and that pinching heads was not necessary. My pet almost died due to it, never again.

That's our story, again I'm not advocating to not use superworms at all. But I feel it's important for people to know the potential risks, and that you can always play safe and just pinch their heads to break their mandibles before feeding them to your geckos. Good day :)
 
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cricket4u

New member
:( I am so sorry this happened to your geckos. I wish you would have seen the post then. You must have felt devastated. I am just glad to see she is now doing well. I had a bad experience myself with superworms years ago, but I never bothered due to lack of photos. When I did mention my story people would quickly assume it was due to husbandry and little do they know my reptiles live better than I do. How many times have geckos suddenly begin refusing to eat? They cannot speak and tell us what is wrong. I can only imagine how many geckos have been bitten or even died in this manner. Thank you so much for sharing this.
 
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cassicat4

New member
I hadn't seen this thread before, but glad I did now. I, like others, thought superworms causing internal damage was just a myth, that they would be dead before they could do any real damage. Thank you for sharing your experience! I know better now.

On that note - has there been anyone whose ever had this experience with hornworms? I've been bit by both supers and horns, and can tell you without hesitation that hornworms bite HARD, much harder than supers, and they don't let go. I feed them occasionally to my one leo, but I've always wondered if they have the same potential for harm as superworms?
 
I hadn't seen this thread before, but glad I did now. I, like others, thought superworms causing internal damage was just a myth, that they would be dead before they could do any real damage. Thank you for sharing your experience! I know better now.

On that note - has there been anyone whose ever had this experience with hornworms? I've been bit by both supers and horns, and can tell you without hesitation that hornworms bite HARD, much harder than supers, and they don't let go. I feed them occasionally to my one leo, but I've always wondered if they have the same potential for harm as superworms?

Hornworms don't bite. I play with them sometimes.
 

cassicat4

New member
It's against the rules to post links from other forum.

I put my finger to the mouth to test it and all I felt was a nibble. Nothing sharp or painful.

Apologies. Edited.

I don't know what to tell you. That's my experience, and I see it's been other people's experiences as well. Maybe it's dependent on size? Maybe it has to do with how agitated/angry/scared they are? I don't know. But as it is, I've always been leery feeding them to my leo and other reptiles as their skin doesn't feel any thicker than mine, and if they can damage mine...

So that's why I'm wondering if these guys could do damage similar to superworms if ingested without having their heads crushed first.
 
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