The Official Nutrition Thread

[luevelvet]

With the discussions being focused on calcium and vitamin requirements I felt it pertinent to start a thread to consolidate these ideas for future reference.

I'm starting to see a difference in how different each species respond to a similar regiment. For instance, we dust with MinerAll with just about every feeding, which is every other day. While the majority of our animals show little to no calcium sacs, the majority of our sikorae have shown signs of edema and very large calcium sacs. It has been mentioned in the past that sikorae have the tendency to become obese in captivity and I wonder if it isn't edema from over supplementation. My theory is based on the fact that sikorae inhabit higher elevation areas (700-1200m asl) and prefer slightly cooler temperatures. They can almost be thought of as the "montane chameleons" of the Uroplatus world. Due to their slower metabolisms, montane chameleons (most Trioceros sp. amongst others) usually require much less supplementation or face edema, much in the same way as U.sikorae.

In the beginning, we didn't know much about the individual species, thus assuming similar care and requirements for the genus as a whole. Perhaps it's time to begin looking at species specific requirements in order to provide the proper level of care, especially in mixed collections.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

Luis

 

[rhacoboy]

I have to agree with you on this.

My Sikorae as well as my Phantasticus females have considerably larger calcium sacks than those of my Henkeli and Lineatus females. They are all fed the same dusted insects and are fed accordingly by size. I also use the same lighting on all of my Uroplatus.

Being that Phantasticus and Sikorae are the Uroplatus that generally do seemingly better in somewhat lower temperatures, I am inclined to agree with your theory.

Though this may be just my animals, the Sikorae seem to eat more based on the size of the animal and are much more vigorous hunters. Any thoughts on this? Or is it just simply the species as a whole?

Another thing to add about specific specie requirements; In my opinion, the only thing that people have really specified to each specie is temperature and humidity requirements. Because this seems to be one of the most important aspects of keeping and breeding Uroplatus, I can understand why this has been stressed so much. But in my opinion, in order to advance ourselves in our breeding of this genus, we must continue to study other aspects of the species, including specific vitamin/calcium/feeding requirements.
Thank you, Luis, for starting this thread, and I look forward to hearing more from other experienced keepers and breeders,
-Armen

 

[pakinjak]

Here's my initial contribution- a picture of a CB U. Sikorae that is overweight (I guess). Her chalk sacs are HUGE and the reason I took the picture. She's with a male but I've never seen any eggs from her. I'm also posting an x-ray since it might be helpful, and will show, I think what Luis is talking about when he mentions edema. I'll hop in the discussion more when I have time, but look at the chalk sacs on this girl.

 

[T-ReXx]

I'll throw in my 2 cents:

As far as sikorae go, from my experience(both current and animals I've kept in the past) they are voracious feeders. More so than any of the other species I've worked with(fimbs, henks, lineatus, and phants). I'd be fairly inclined to agree that their supplementation requirements would be different than more wide-spread species like fimbriatus or henkeli. I would like to weigh in on henkeli; I am pretty solid in my belief that they require WAY more calcium than other species in the genus, females especially. From experience and talking with other keepers I have pretty much come to the conclusion that, at least with henks, you can't overdo the calcium. Females are extremely prone to crashes, and having almost lost a couple I increased my supplementation regime and have had good results. Males are a different story, I have yet to see or hear of a male who suffered from MBD when given the "usual" supplementation. I use repashy Cal plus, and am sold on it 100%. My experiences with Reptical were less than stellar. I have not tried Minerall, but I have heard good things. I also think UVB is almost 100% necessary with these guys for long term success. I'm not exactly sure where the rumor about it causing hypercalcemia started, but I don't agree with it. I am inclined to think that similar levels are required in fimbriatus and lineatus, but I haven't had enough experience with calcium problems with them to really say for sure.

 

[Riverside Reptiles]

I've been reading more and more about cases of gout in captive geckos lately. Not necessarily Uroplatus, but geckos in general. I wonder perhaps how much that might be an issue with Uroplatus though.

 

[rhacoboy]

I've been reading more and more about cases of gout in captive geckos lately. Not necessarily Uroplatus, but geckos in general. I wonder perhaps how much that might be an issue with Uroplatus though.

I have heard of Pietschmanni becoming overweight and I believe the outcome was fatal.

I also have a female Sikorae with similar calcium sacks. She's getting very large and just began the breeding season.

-Armen

 

[pakinjak]

It might be helpful to know that the animal I pictured is 28g. Not a weight I would think too much for a sikorae, but looking at her tells another story.

 

[cricket4u]

I've been reading more and more about cases of gout in captive geckos lately. Not necessarily Uroplatus, but geckos in general. I wonder perhaps how much that might be an issue with Uroplatus though.

Reptiles are susceptible to gout because they produce uric acid as the end product of protein and so elevated uric acid levels can lead to gout.

Another problem quite common is MBD being diagnosed and only treated with loads of calcium. Well, the problem with that is not every case is due to lack of calcium in the diet. There can be several conditions that can disrupt calcium metabolism for ex:

Kidney disease which impairs the absorption of calcium
Secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism
Some reptiles do not absorb Vitamin D that well via supplements
Temperatures too cool

After looking at this thread below I doubt lack of calcium in the diet alone is causing problems due to the fact that her calcium sacs are full.

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...us/59178-sikorae-necropsy-graphic-photos.html

Has anyone tried offering a large gradient of temperatures for them to choose from? warmest side being a few degrees higher than what is believed to be necessary?

 

[cricket4u]

Edema is usually a sign of kidney and/or liver disease.

 

[pakinjak]

Again, here is where some Uroplatus specific knowledge would come in handy. Most people are just trying to keep them alive at all, much less fiddle around with keeping them too hot. Also, there just aren't people keeping them successfully to get a broad sampling from their animals and compare husbandry. Many of the keepers I know provide a temperature gradient, and I am one of them.

Has anybody seen or even heard of a case of gout in a Uroplatus, or a case of MBD in one that isn't a laying female or a juvenile? I don't think it's necessary to jump to a list of potential causes when producing eggs and extremely rapid growth cause the greater percentage of calcium/supplement related issues.

Ethan, you might be interested in this- The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums

 

[cricket4u]

or a poor Cah ratio which might not always be from lack of calcium but to much phosphorus. Or other various reasons. Proper diet and gut load is essential for healthy lizards.

Yes, I guess I was assuming most keepers did a good job with that at least on this forum.

 

[cricket4u]

Again, here is where some Uroplatus specific knowledge would come in handy. Most people are just trying to keep them alive at all, much less fiddle around with keeping them too hot. Also, there just aren't people keeping them successfully to get a broad sampling from their animals and compare husbandry. Many of the keepers I know provide a temperature gradient, and I am one of them.

Has anybody seen or even heard of a case of gout in a Uroplatus, or a case of MBD in one that isn't a laying female or a juvenile?

I have read several owners being highly suspicious of the conditions, however none made it to a vet or had a necropsy done.

 

[pakinjak]

Reptiles are susceptible to gout because they produce uric acid as the end product of protein and so elevated uric acid levels can lead to gout.

Another problem quite common is MBD being diagnosed and only treated with loads of calcium. Well, the problem with that is not every case is due to lack of calcium in the diet. There can be several conditions that can disrupt calcium metabolism for ex:

Kidney disease which impairs the absorption of calcium
Secondary nutritional hyperparathyroidism
Some reptiles do not absorb Vitamin D that well via supplements
Temperatures too cool

After looking at this thread below I doubt lack of calcium in the diet alone is causing problems due to the fact that her calcium sacs are full.

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...us/59178-sikorae-necropsy-graphic-photos.html

Has anyone tried offering a large gradient of temperatures for them to choose from? warmest side being a few degrees higher than what is believed to be necessary?

I think what you're looking at in that thread is not a calcium deficiency, and I don't see where anybody said it was. The vet just said to give her the calcium gluconate IN CASE it was calcium related. Of course, what I wonder there is what temperature range did this animal have access to in it's enclosure?

Particularly because the species is a U. Sikorae and I've seen keepers post that they die in a few hours when exposed to temps of 82f. This is absolutely not true in my experience. My pair have been in those temps and have lived through it just fine, but I wonder if some keepers are keeping them too cool and not providing localized heat enough for the females to develop eggs properly. My experience with not only Uroplatus but other species is that just because their home range is X-X temps, does not mean that they cannot survive or even thrive in different temps. I think it's faulty thinking to assume that the animals native climate is the only one they can survive in. Sure, it's certainly a starting place and more important for some species than others, but the lower and upper limits aren't necessarily the highs and lows of it's home range.

The place to ask it would probably be in the thread you linked, but I wonder about the temps...

 

[cricket4u]

Particularly because the species is a U. Sikorae and I've seen keepers post that they die in a few hours when exposed to temps of 82f. This is absolutely not true in my experience. My pair have been in those temps and have lived through it just fine, but I wonder if some keepers are keeping them too cool and not providing localized heat enough for the females to develop eggs properly. My experience with not only Uroplatus but other species is that just because their home range is X-X temps, does not mean that they cannot survive or even thrive in different temps. I think it's faulty thinking to assume that the animals native climate is the only one they can survive in. Sure, it's certainly a starting place and more important for some species than others, but the lower and upper limits aren't necessarily the highs and lows of it's home range.

It's definately something to consider and why I believe it's so important to provide a large range of temperatures regardless. Reptiles= infancy stage :yawn:

The Roach Revolution Revelation (a theory about Reptile Gout) - Gecko Resource Forums
Coincidently, I recently sent Elizabeth Freer a link with fruit and vegetable nutrition info with gutloading in mind. I would leave up to her to post if she thinks it's suitable.

 

[cricket4u]

Do you know this person by any chance? This story definately sounds like gout. Unfortunately the person has no logged in since 2010.

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...kos-uroplatus/32292-swollen-limb-sikorae.html

edit:
You had asked if anyone knew a case of gout in a uroplatus and so that is why I provided that link although it was not confirmed. Diet, supplements and heating are all related to kidney, liver and gout if you think about it. I'm just not sure why a vet will quickly rule out gout simply because it's only in one location. This is one of the cases in which it began in one location as well.

http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...ed-help-gecko-has-slightly-swollen-elbow.html

Don't worry, last time you will here the word gout from me. I don't want to derail the thread either that's why I just added it here

 

[pakinjak]

I really don't want to derail this nutrition thread and turn it into a thread on Gout, but my vet told me while looking at the Sameiti with the swollen knee that Gout isn't normally localized to just one joint. The vet from the other thread said the same thing mine did, I just did the x-ray.

 

[T-ReXx]

I also agree that temps play a big role in Uroplatus digestion/health. If you look at geographical data from the ranges of U. sikorae in Madagascar they do in fact inhabit regions that go well above 82F during some parts of the year. Now, that being said, they reside usually only a matter of feet above the ground and canopy cover would reduce temps and direct sunlight exposure significantly. Keepers have documented mossies being active and even feeding at temps close to 50F, however these animals ARE reptiles and therefore do require the ability to adjust their location to suite the temp that they need. I always provide a gradient, no matter what the species. I too have found Uroplatus to possibly require higher temps than the majority think they do. My sikorae have been regularly exposed to temps up to 82F ambient with an 86F basking area available. I have found both henkeli and fimbriatus to be even more likely to seek heat, and I provide a 86F basking area for those species at all times. Doing so has proven to improve appetite and activity levels. I would still say exposure to AMBIENT temps over 85F is extremely risky, however NOT providing a basking area in at least the low 80s is also a potential for problems with digestion and overall health. Note that this is not the same range I would recommend for phantasticus or ebanaui; both these species are bush dwellers and stay at lower levels of the forest and therefore are rarely exposed to higher temps.

 

[yaya543]

With the discussions being focused on calcium and vitamin requirements I felt it pertinent to start a thread to consolidate these ideas for future reference.

I'm starting to see a difference in how different each species respond to a similar regiment. For instance, we dust with MinerAll with just about every feeding, which is every other day. While the majority of our animals show little to no calcium sacs, the majority of our sikorae have shown signs of edema and very large calcium sacs. It has been mentioned in the past that sikorae have the tendency to become obese in captivity and I wonder if it isn't edema from over supplementation. My theory is based on the fact that sikorae inhabit higher elevation areas (700-1200m asl) and prefer slightly cooler temperatures. They can almost be thought of as the "montane chameleons" of the Uroplatus world. Due to their slower metabolisms, montane chameleons (most Trioceros sp. amongst others) usually require much less supplementation or face edema, much in the same way as U.sikorae.

In the beginning, we didn't know much about the individual species, thus assuming similar care and requirements for the genus as a whole. Perhaps it's time to begin looking at species specific requirements in order to provide the proper level of care, especially in mixed collections.

Thoughts?

Cheers!

Luis

I have been reading around about D3 and thought this might help you guys out.

CHS Care Sheets - Lizards
Janet has had conversations with the FDA Vet's when she had Repcal with D analyzed. She was exploring a theory she had after the destruction of perhaps the largest Uroplatus collection through the use of RepCal. The problem is the high level of vitamin D in this and other products.

this was in here-http://talkto.thefrog.org/index.php?action=vthread&forum=15&topic=14119

 

[pakinjak]

Cricket, I've said this numerous times and it's one reason why this thread and the one one on my Sameiti are so frustrating to me. -

Vet said gout isn't normally localized in one joint. He's been doing this for decades, and most of that time has been serving a large reptile breeder in my area. He's seen his share of reptiles and I trust he knows what he's talking about.

Also, please note I had the x-ray taken. The vet looked at it, I looked at it, heck half of Uroplatus keeping kingdom has probably looked at it by now and it's NOT gout. I've seen an x-ray from a cham. that had gout, and you can see the build up in the joint. The joints of my animal look just fine. There are other issues that are more likely in his case, so I don't know why you're so stuck on gout as a diagnosis but it's driving me just a little bit crazy.

 

[cricket4u]

Cricket, I've said this numerous times and it's one reason why this thread and the one one on my Sameiti are so frustrating to me. -

Vet said gout isn't normally localized in one joint. He's been doing this for decades, and most of that time has been serving a large reptile breeder in my area. He's seen his share of reptiles and I trust he knows what he's talking about.

Also, please note I had the x-ray taken. The vet looked at it, I looked at it, heck half of Uroplatus keeping kingdom has probably looked at it by now and it's NOT gout. I've seen an x-ray from a cham. that had gout, and you can see the build up in the joint. The joints of my animal look just fine. There are other issues that are more likely in his case, so I don't know why you're so stuck on gout as a diagnosis but it's driving me just a little bit crazy.

:shock: Stuck on gout? I mentioned quite a few possibilities and I was generalizing. I guess your talking about the responce to your question a few days ago. I have not said a word since then and clearly I have nothing more to say. Hope you figure it out and all is well.