The Official Nutrition Thread

luevelvet

New member
It's been a hectic weekend (and week for that matter) so I apologize for not paying as close attention to this thread as I had anticipated.

To start with, please keep discussion regarding other threads in those other threads. The reason I started this thread was to move away from the threads that were going off into topics that didn't really have to do with the original topic. So in an effort to be as polite about this as possible, let's just keep those topics under those threads and general nutrition discussion in this one.

My new goals for this thread are as follows:

  • I want to invite discussion from experienced keepers who have been successfully breeding Uroplatus for multiple seasons. Many Uroplatus can live a year or more while being malnourished so accounts of single season successes don't count much in this thread.

  • Considering the above, the topics to discuss should involve around vitamin/mineral supplementation and the perceived or known benefits or lack there of. While many may not know the symptoms for different diseases etc, this is not the thread to request such info. If you're having issues with your animal, please start a new thread to give it the attention it deserves. :)

I apologize if this comes across as curt or rude but we really want to get the most out of our discussions. Nothing drives the experienced (read: busy) keepers away is talk of trivial issues related to other threads. :)

Now let's keep the discussion going!

How many of my fellow keepers/breeders work with multiple species and adjust their supplementation for each? Have you noticed certain species being more mineral/vitamin hungry than others?

Cheers!

Luis
 

jadrig

New member
I definitely feel that the henkeli are the most 'nutrient starved' in captive conditions...Satanics the least nutrient starved (males anyway).
I have a plethora of Dubia roaches and use them as a main staple in all of my animals diet. I have experienced that gutloaded(no protein) dubia roaches do not suffice as a main staple in their diet.
My Mellers Chameleons are perfectly fine on just gutloaded dubia with minimal calcium supplementation.
I never had a problem with baby/juvie henkels(nutritionally), but I have had some problems with sub adults/CB adults. I think this is mainly due to the fact that I feed baby/juvie geckos B.lateralis/lobster roaches...and larger geckos dubia roaches.
In my experience, other than dubia not being as appetizing in their locamotion, I dont believe they are as nutritionally sound for Uroplatus/larger Uroplatus.
I did not want this thread to go ascue, but I believe the caloric intake/nutritional value for the individual /insect species is as important as the supplements/gutloads.
 

pakinjak

Member
Joe, when you say that henks are the most nutrient starved, do you mean both male and female? I can imagine that would be true about them since they're proned to lay so many eggs. Mine laid 14 eggs this year over the course of five months, so of course this would affect her nutritional needs.

I think if we're going to mention metabolism and feeder nutrition, it will be helpful to include their propensity for egg production as well. This may be one reason why henkeli are so nutritionally needy, which I thoroughly agree with.
 

jadrig

New member
Does anyone know of a 'nutritional value' table for insects...
I know its out there for domestic crickets and superworms,
But now, moreso than ever, people are using feeder roaches as a main staple.
I would like to know if there is a nutritional content break down between the roach species.
 

luevelvet

New member
Calcium may be a good starting point as many of us focus on keeping our "breeders" healthy and laying. As obvious as it may seem, I've noticed males require much less calcium than females, however, they're still not safe from other deficiencies.

When we first started working with Uroplatus, we were having a hard time keeping up with the calcium demands of the females. Once we tried a few different products, one in particular came out on top. It has a list of minerals, not just calcium and D3 and along with adding UVB over all cages, it really helped our females during the most demanding times. Now we're noticing small amounts of edema and very chubby U.sikorae females, leading me to believe we're supplementing too much (something I wasn't accustomed to until this point).

While this is happening, I've noticed that the henkeli are still looking fine, albeit with very little calcium sacs and the aff.henkeli (despite an entire 6 month break) wore themselves out by the end of this last season. I've had to rehab two of the females thus far (both are showing great signs of improvement already) and this begs the question, why would sikorae develop edema when aff.henkeli still be calcium starved?

One theory depends on whether or not they're laying. IE, I've had females get very portly, storing a good deal of calcium etc, but perhaps it's because she wasn't laying for me. Not one egg came from her, while the aff.henkeli laid close to 6 clutches each.

The fact that sikorae inhabit much higher elevations to most other species in the genus, I still believe they may have different nutritional requirements than the others however, however, it's obvious we need to focus on intraspecies requirements (male vs female) as well.

As I mentioned above, I do believe males require less calcium, but what about other vitamins/minerals? Male U.lineatus seem the most sensitive to over supplementation, developing large pouches behind their front legs along with the common swelling of the gular pouch. I have not witnessed this in any other species to date.

  • Has anyone else noticed such differences in their collections?
  • What is your routine for supplementing different species?
  • Do you focus on any one vitamin or mineral over any other (other than Calcium)?


Cheers!

Luis
 

luevelvet

New member
Does anyone know of a 'nutritional value' table for insects...
I know its out there for domestic crickets and superworms,
But now, moreso than ever, people are using feeder roaches as a main staple.
I would like to know if there is a nutritional content break down between the roach species.

I'm not sure how accurate this is, but I found this...
http://www.doubleds.org/newfeederpg.html


Cheers!

Luis
 
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jadrig

New member
I have noticed the pouches(fat?storage) behind the front legs of my female pietschmanni after she became acclimated. I have also noticed it in well fed, non-reproducing female sikorae. Also, I had an adult male henkeli who loved superworms. He kept eating them, so I kept feeding them to him. He got quite plump and developed these fatty pouches as well. He then died...I think he had fatty kidney disease as a result.
I recall one breeding season where I swore that I was not going to let my female henkeli 'crash'. I fed her a good amount of food and plenty of calcium. She grew quite wide, but I think this made her crash even harder. She was EXTREMElY productive over a dozen viable/nonviable eggs. After that breeding season, I figured that it would be in the best interest of the female if I separated her from the male when I thought she had enough.
I would administer extra calcium(repcal) with babyfood while she was breeding. This obviousl helped, but repcal always seemed like it was just barely enough, unless every insect was caked with it.
For your Uroplatus, what calcium supplement seems to work best for you?
oh...and thanks for the link;-)
 
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luevelvet

New member
We've been using MinerAll with great results, especially for crashing (or crashed) females. But it may be too good for some and causing the edema we're seeing. It hasn't been fatal with any of our animals and has actually been rectified in most but a few.

We went through RepCal, The the ZooMed stuff but neither was able to keep up like the mineral has. We can now have a full season without half of the girls crashing on us, despite decent production. We've hatched 44 babies this year alone and the aff.henkeli were the only females that crashed for us, all others have stayed rather stable and healthy.

Cheers!

Luis
 

pakinjak

Member
I use Repashy calcium plus, I think it is comparable to Mineral? ?? I use it because it's calcium and vitamins/minerals in one and I'm pretty convinced that uroplatus will benefit fro the combination. My henkeli female crashed and I gave her some Rescue Cal, a product designed for calcium emergencies. That was five weeks ago and she's extremely active now. I have a fimbriatus that is still laying and every few days I'll liquefy some Calplus and nose drop it to her.

I have an obese female sikorae that I'm trying to "rehabilitate" by lowering her supplementation, but I'd love to hear if and how anyone has achieved this before.

Of course, I don't have seasons upon seasons to report on the success of my methods. But so far, I haven't lost any breeder females or hatchlings.
 
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Robin Skrumsager

New member
Jadrig I to have noticed the pouches/fatstorage behind the front legs on my female pietschmanni, She is CB and grown extremly well. Her calcium sac's are huge, and im feeding her 1-2 times a week. Every know and then I use calcium, and Kvormin ZVT for mineral supplementation.

I use the same calcium and Kvormin ZVT for my uroplatus, and the females are haveing what best can be described like one of those neck pillows you get on airplanes. And I only use it 1 feeding a week, sometimes everyother week.

Its works great, and sticks very well on the feeder insects., As Luis mentions I to have UVA/UVB ligtinh above their viv.
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
Has anyone ever tried to feed adult Pachnoda marginata beetles to henkeli, siko, fimbs and lineatus?
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
True, I have noticed "wild" grasshoppers found in summer worked great to fight anorexia on leopard geckos -that was long ago, I don't keep E. macularius any longer. Yet there are risks about pesticides and some other harmful substances with insects collected from the fields or in nature. Even if you don't collect them close to fields where pesticides are massively used, many insects are quite mobile and you know what happens with the food chain, the harmful substances are more and more concentrated on predator species ;)
 

Aimless

Super Moderator
I'm not a breeder and in fact have yet to get my first Uroplatus. I do hope you'll forgive my intrusion here? this is an excellent thread with some great information, and I'd like to both ask questions and add a comment.

it is well-known that with chameleons over-dosing on Vitamin A can cause swelling, first seen in the forelegs and resembling gout because of kidney effects. we all get so obsessed with calcium and with vitD that I think sometimes we forget all the other ingredients.

so here's the question: does anyone know anything about how Uroplatus' metabolize vitamin A? any known cases of either over- or under-supplementation in a captive gecko, and related symptoms?

here's the comment. as a biochemist and a reptile keeper who rescues for a herp society, I spend a lot of time thinking about calcium metabolism. I've seen some very ugly MBD. it seems that many studies and/or articles involving calcium supplementation focus entirely on bone development and on the shelling of eggs as being the most important bodily uses of calcium. however, calcium is involved in such a huge portion of cellular signalling events that it goes way beyond whether your girl survives the breeding season. I really think that on the whole, reptile keepers are really barely touching the tip of the iceberg when it comes to understanding the complexity of calcium metabolism in reptiles, and how to supplement properly.

my other question - for breeding females, if you overload them on calcium prior to the season, wouldn't that also be detrimental? I mean, you want them to have good reserves going in - but wouldn't it be most important to give high amounts of Ca++ supplement during and just after, when they're low and can't be overdosed? or does this even matter?

anyways, again, this is a very informative thread and I'm following the discussion eagerly!
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
As a Uroplatus breeder, I would also know whether the fact that calcium is stored in "calcium sacks" on their necks prevents any kidney stone issues in case of an overdose of calcium. I would tend to think it depends on how big the overdose is, but that no Uroplatus is "immune" to kidney issues.

Another point, when you mention Ca++ in their metabolism, does it only involve ionic exchanges in nervous cells, or more poorly known (at least by keepers and breeders) facts about intracellular and other metabolic phenomenae?
 

Harley_Davidson

New member
I have read that feeding snails to your Uroplatus helps to increase the calcium levels. So if I feed my guys snails and dust my crickets is this enough? Do you provide a dish of calcium in their tank? Will they even eat it?
 

thorrshamri

Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
That should be enough, though a little more variety in their diet cannot hurt, especially red runner roaches, all of mine are fond of them!
I do leave a calcium dish in every Uro enclosure but honestly I have never seen them eating from it. Besides, bad eggs are often eaten by females to regain calcium ;)
 
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