Harley_Davidson
New member
LOL.......... well I am a bit too far north for that.... but good thought....... can you think of other bugs that are really high in calcium?
The Official Nutrition Thread
- Thread starter luevelvet
- Start date
thorrshamri
Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
Locusts, but I was told they are a typical European thing- Locusta migratoria or Schistocerca gregaria. Not so high in calcium, but way better than mealworms or superworms, and contrary to crickets they are silent and mostly vegetarians.
If your animals accept them, you can try a pinkie mice once in a while as well, preferrably with a whitish blotch on their bellies, that means they are full of mother's milk, so much richer in calcium than those without this blotch
If your animals accept them, you can try a pinkie mice once in a while as well, preferrably with a whitish blotch on their bellies, that means they are full of mother's milk, so much richer in calcium than those without this blotch
Riverside Reptiles
Administrator (HMFIC)
I tend to not recommend pinkies for geckos in general. And in my opinion, even though the mother's milk may be rich in calcium, I doubt that these animals (being non mammalian) are very lactose tolerant which in and of itself could prove detrimental.
Aimless
Super Moderator
"Another point, when you mention Ca++ in their metabolism, does it only involve ionic exchanges in nervous cells, or more poorly known (at least by keepers and breeders) facts about intracellular and other metabolic phenomenae?
"
oh man, Ca++ is essential to keep neurons healthy, but it's also involved in almost everything all cells do as an effector molecule. it's involved in everything from stress response and inflammation, to inter-and intra-cellular communication and adhesion. it's a phenomenally important nutrient for an enormous number of cell signaling events, as well as whole skeletal development aspect. without more extensive scientific research by species, it's really pretty incredible we do as well with as many reptile species as we do.
"
oh man, Ca++ is essential to keep neurons healthy, but it's also involved in almost everything all cells do as an effector molecule. it's involved in everything from stress response and inflammation, to inter-and intra-cellular communication and adhesion. it's a phenomenally important nutrient for an enormous number of cell signaling events, as well as whole skeletal development aspect. without more extensive scientific research by species, it's really pretty incredible we do as well with as many reptile species as we do.
thorrshamri
Moderator/The French Viking Moderathorr
Ethan, Uros do eat smaller vertebrates in the wild, I can tell you that. They will eat smaller geckos if they can, it may be shocking to some of you but when I had a few born-dead species from other species, my Uros readily ate them. They were also reported, at least for fimbriatus and henkeli and probably even more for giganteus, to eat baby rodents in the wild. As long as you don't make it a staple diet and give an occasional pinkie, for example for animals which are a little too skinny or for females after a clutch, I see no problem doing that .
I had also "boosted" R. ciliatus females after they layed eggs with half a pinkie, and it did help them to recover from egg-laying. Pinkies are indeed much richer in calories than any insect and are rather fat, so again it's not to be used as a staple diet.
Uros are simply opportunistic predators and I suspect they would eat their own youngs if they were given the chance to.
As for the lactose digestion issue, I have already fed henkeli with whole milk lichee yogurts without added chemicals in them, and they pooped just like normal.
. I had also "boosted" R. ciliatus females after they layed eggs with half a pinkie, and it did help them to recover from egg-laying. Pinkies are indeed much richer in calories than any insect and are rather fat, so again it's not to be used as a staple diet.
Uros are simply opportunistic predators and I suspect they would eat their own youngs if they were given the chance to.
As for the lactose digestion issue, I have already fed henkeli with whole milk lichee yogurts without added chemicals in them, and they pooped just like normal.
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Tim
New member
Here is my opinion on that subject. I try to fed my animals a whole variety of insects, mainly I use A.domestica, G.assimilis, B.dubia and some other roach species. Females also get from the tweezers Hermetia illucens, which have a very high calcium level and snails.
I try to not feed them to much, Uroplatus can't store fat like other geckos in a certain part of the body and in my opinion there is a risk for fat animals of some species getting gout. Very high protein and fat rich food is in my opinion not the best choice, I never used pinkies for any of my animals.
As supplementation, I use different products, but mainly Minerall. I think there should be more attention paid on the use of D3 vitamin. Here for I use products with and without D3, to ensure that the animals don't get too muck of it, there for I only give them D3 in every third-fourth feeding. Hope I could help a bit.
Kind regards, Tim
I try to not feed them to much, Uroplatus can't store fat like other geckos in a certain part of the body and in my opinion there is a risk for fat animals of some species getting gout. Very high protein and fat rich food is in my opinion not the best choice, I never used pinkies for any of my animals.
As supplementation, I use different products, but mainly Minerall. I think there should be more attention paid on the use of D3 vitamin. Here for I use products with and without D3, to ensure that the animals don't get too muck of it, there for I only give them D3 in every third-fourth feeding. Hope I could help a bit.
Kind regards, Tim
Graham_s
Super Moderator
I don't feel that I can make a particularly useful contribution to this thread, because my supplementation is usually played by ear.
It might sound stupid, but I have found that I have developed a good feel for when to supplement (with which supplements) and when to skip supplementing.
Occasionally, if I have a breeding female that is producing well, I might give them a weak dose of calcium lactate solution mid-season, just as some sort of a top-up. I have only done this once or twice, and have not noticed any detrimental effects of doing so.
I also always give calcium (CaCO3) dishes to my breeding females, as I have seen phantasticus, sikorae and finiavana self-dosing. I think my pietschmanni have been self-dosing as well.
I think that one of the most fundamentally important things to remember is that supplementation and proper gutloading of feeder insects should not be treated as being mutually exclusive, and in order to provide adequate nutrition for the animals, feeder insects (and variety of), gutloading, and dusting of the livefood all need to be properly accounted for.
I think that the fact that this results in multiple layers of complexities and variables, is the main reason that mistakes of malnutrition occur.
Perhaps because of this multi-layered system, some of the deaths we see - that we put down to improper nutrition - could be caused by bioaccumulation/biomagnification of contaminants or toxins present in the gutloading food or the livefood itself. But I haven’t thought this through, it has only just occurred to me as a possibility, so thought I would at least share my thoughts.
Anyway, as I say, I generally go with my gut as to how to provide the appropriate nutrition for my geckos, and thus far I haven't had any problems. The only deaths I have had recently are either animals from one particular disreputable breeder, or the odd hatchling dying from (presumably) normal infant mortality.
I have only ever had one female gecko (u. finiavana) have a calcium crash, but she was extraordinarily productive that particular season (about 10 clutches, if I remember correctly), and after a couple of days of calcium lactate treatment, twice daily, she had stabilised.
After an extended winter cooling period, and after receiving infertile eggs from her, checking her calcium sacs, and when absolutely convinced she was out of the woods, she bred again and had another very productive season, albeit less so than the previous. She has been in top health ever since.
EDIT: Just thought I would add that I have bred and used baby woodlice for hatchlings, and have colonies of small snails in most of my vivaria. I have no idea what species the snail are, but I have seen partially digested shells in my finiavana, phantasticus and sikorae vivaria, so I assume they have been eating them.
It might sound stupid, but I have found that I have developed a good feel for when to supplement (with which supplements) and when to skip supplementing.
Occasionally, if I have a breeding female that is producing well, I might give them a weak dose of calcium lactate solution mid-season, just as some sort of a top-up. I have only done this once or twice, and have not noticed any detrimental effects of doing so.
I also always give calcium (CaCO3) dishes to my breeding females, as I have seen phantasticus, sikorae and finiavana self-dosing. I think my pietschmanni have been self-dosing as well.
I think that one of the most fundamentally important things to remember is that supplementation and proper gutloading of feeder insects should not be treated as being mutually exclusive, and in order to provide adequate nutrition for the animals, feeder insects (and variety of), gutloading, and dusting of the livefood all need to be properly accounted for.
I think that the fact that this results in multiple layers of complexities and variables, is the main reason that mistakes of malnutrition occur.
Perhaps because of this multi-layered system, some of the deaths we see - that we put down to improper nutrition - could be caused by bioaccumulation/biomagnification of contaminants or toxins present in the gutloading food or the livefood itself. But I haven’t thought this through, it has only just occurred to me as a possibility, so thought I would at least share my thoughts.
Anyway, as I say, I generally go with my gut as to how to provide the appropriate nutrition for my geckos, and thus far I haven't had any problems. The only deaths I have had recently are either animals from one particular disreputable breeder, or the odd hatchling dying from (presumably) normal infant mortality.
I have only ever had one female gecko (u. finiavana) have a calcium crash, but she was extraordinarily productive that particular season (about 10 clutches, if I remember correctly), and after a couple of days of calcium lactate treatment, twice daily, she had stabilised.
After an extended winter cooling period, and after receiving infertile eggs from her, checking her calcium sacs, and when absolutely convinced she was out of the woods, she bred again and had another very productive season, albeit less so than the previous. She has been in top health ever since.
EDIT: Just thought I would add that I have bred and used baby woodlice for hatchlings, and have colonies of small snails in most of my vivaria. I have no idea what species the snail are, but I have seen partially digested shells in my finiavana, phantasticus and sikorae vivaria, so I assume they have been eating them.
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Harley_Davidson
New member
After rereading this thread once again AND based on my recent experience with a calcium crash in my adult female sikorae, I noticed that no one has brought up the importance of UVB lighting to help with the utilization of calcium. As you know I was under the misunderstanding that nice big calcium sacs meant good calcium levels...unfortunately due to the sketchy information on uvb lighting and nocturnal animals I did not provide uvb. Since the crash, I have begun providing uvb and have seen a marked difference in my female. My male gets about an hour in the evening with the uvb light and I have also noticed a difference in his coloring, it appears much richer.
So even though we do provide calcium and we do supplement, it appears that may not be enough.
So even though we do provide calcium and we do supplement, it appears that may not be enough.
cricket4u
New member
Provide space and many hiding places so that she can regulate on her own as needed. I would highly suggest you invest in a meter. Do some research and you will find reasonable priced meters.
Solartech Solarmeter UVB Meter Model 6.2 - ReptileUV
Solartech Solarmeter UVB Meter Model 6.2 - ReptileUV