Whay is he spending all day in the humid hide?

[mecoat]

Daff has been spending nearly all day (as far as I can tell) in his humid hide for a bit over a week now, and I'm starting to get concerned.

At first I figured he was due to shed, as his colours didn't change much before last shed, but he came out as soon as he was finished last time (a couple of days). His colours are still bright, and no evidence of shed (either he's done it really clean with no bits stuck, or he's not shedding).

He has water in the viv all the time in a bowl, so I can't see that he could be dehydrated.

All temperature creating devices are controlled by thermostats and I've been checking the temps making sure it is correct.

Any ideas why he's not in the hot dry hide any more? He used to spend all his time in there (as far as I can tell).

Thanks

 

[mecoat]

I figure I'll be asked to fill this in, so, as best as I can:

General Information
Species of lizard: Leopard Gecko
Gecko's name: Daff
Morph: Unknown (any ideas?)
Gender: Male
Age: 11 Months - 1 year
Weight: Unknown
Total length: 8 inches, at last measure (about 1 month ago), but not much more if at all
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it: about the same
Source (pet store, breeder, previous owner): Breeder/Previous owner (Previous owner had babies, but is not a breeder)
Captive bred or wild caught: Captive bred

Vivarium
Enclosure dimensions (length x width x heighth):910mm x 450mm x 400mm
Cage (type, size): Home made - see my DIY thread : http://www.geckosunlimited.com/comm...n-vivarium-removable-floor-easy-cleaning.html
Substrate provided: corn cob pellets, plastic cutting board, and glass cutting board
Types of hiding places are provided: many hides (hot dry, hot moist, cool dry etc.)
Is there a humidity hide? location? Yes under the CHE, but not on the UTH
Please describe any other furnishings: Marbles, Kitchen roll inner, water bowl, meal worm dish and calcium
List recent changes in the environment, if any: CHE replaced from 100W to 25W (100W caused such great temp fluctuations Daff spent all day in the cold hide to escape)

Lighting
Artificial lighting
Incandescent (“screw-in” bulbs): wattage(s): 5-8W
Fluorescent (tube bulbs):No

Natural lighting
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window: Yes

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage? what type? Strip smart material type
What is the temperature in the warm part of the cage? 79-84F under the warm hide? 91F in the coolest part? 75F
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (UTH, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, hot rock, other): UTH and CHE
Are you using a thermostat? Yes, on both. UTH set to 91F, CHE set to just under 84F
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Humid hide
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much? Yes CHE and light switched off (warm side drops to 77F ish)

Humidity
Is the humidity measured? No
Humidity range:

Diet
Insects, list type: Crickets and Mealworms
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms: Crickets - ProRep Bug Grub, water, and assorted veg and fruit. Mealworms - Wheatbran, assorted veg and fruit, small amount of powdered milk
Are they “gut loaded” 48 hours prior to feeding off to your leo? If so with? No change to above, not fed direct from shop though, so always gut loaded with above.
How often do you feed your reptile? Daily (2-3 crickets), mealworms in all the time
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often? Calcidust in viv all the time, Crickets dusted with mix of Calcidust and Nutrobal multivit alternate feedings
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both? Calcidust (without) in viv, Nutrobal (with) for dusting only
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without? without
Multivitamins? Yes (as above)
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet: none

If your reptile is sick, please describe the signs and how long your reptile has been showing these signs: Hope not
Is your reptile’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased? Normal
Is your reptile’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased? Normal
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight loss, Weight gain No
Discharge from the eyes or nose No
Increased breathing rate or effort No
Change in the droppings Did a really long one today after not doing one for the last couple of days, but otherwise, No
Urates white or yellowish Whiteish
Abnormal skin color or shedding No
Parasites on the skin or in the feces Don't think so
Weakness No

Previous problems and/or illnesses: No

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household No other pets
List other animals that are kept in the same cage:
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months):
Are any of your other pets ill?

Please post a picture of your gecko and the habitat on your thread. Many thanks.

 

[mecoat]

Pics - 2 views to show everything:
Left to right : kitchen roll tube (for playing in), cold dry hide, mealworm bowl and calcium dish (in 1), water dish at front, cold dry coconut hide (made at home), Marbles (to play with), drain tube halved, humid hide at back, warm dry hide at front. UTH is square and approx length of glass at back, but mounted at the front of the viv (so only goes under the glass about 1 in). CHE mounted back right. (Plastic cutting board is green and on the coolish side, glass is under the CHE warm side). Home made coconut hide in back right corner.




PS Have just seen the typo in the Title - big D'oh. Should read Why not Whay. I'd appreciate my dodgy spelling being ammended by a mod if possible when convenient.

 

[cricket4u]

Hi,

Do you have a humidity gauge? Maybe the humidity is too low?

Do you have a digital thermometer to read air temps with? I know that you have the probe, but it's best to have a digital to compare with for accuracy.

I hope he is not unhappy with the substrate. It can't be comfortable for him to walk on.

 

[Amuna1225]

Change the substrate, really shouldnt be using loose substrate like that

 

[mecoat]

He likes having the loose substrate - he loves having a dig. It's always different in the morning, where he's dug in one place, then the next night he puts it back. He's also been on that substrate since before I had him.

I don't have a humidity gauge, but this has only happened since I put the CHE in. I've been checking the temps, both ground and air, and they aren't too high. He has a water bowl (water changed daily) in there all the time as well as the humid hide.

I've been checking air temps with a thermometer as well as assuming the thermostat was right.

 

[Amuna1225]

Sounds like the humidity might be too low due to the CHE.

 

[mecoat]

Any ideas on how I can up the humidity in the viv if that is the problem?

Aren't they likely to get respiratory infections in a humid environment? That's why I'm worrying.

Thanks

 

[mecoat]

So I've put the water bowl under the CHE in the hope that that raises the humidity a bit. Anyone see any problem with this? Or got any better suggestions?

Thanks

 

[mecoat]

OK, so this morning he was back in the humid hide even before the CHE turned on. Can he tell the time? (The CHE is on a timer and thermostat).

Any other ideas on causes? Please?

 

[mecoat]

The water bowl under the CHE hasn't made a difference - he was still in the humid hide when I got home last night (and when I went to bed, and when I got up, although he had been digging in the warm dry hide, so he must have been in there at some point over night).

Please has anyone got any ideas?

Thanks

 

[mecoat]

Today I've turned the CHE off to see if that was the problem. The water under the CHE didn't work (except to make the viv smell a little funky), he still was in humid hide.

Back in the humid hide this morning (even before the light and CHE turned on again).

Please has anyone got any ideas about causes or solutions?

Thanks

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

mecoat ~

Are you willing to replace the corn cob pellets with paper towels for a couple weeks to see whether doing so makes a difference? Just exploring the possibilities.

Some leos live out long healthy lives without being able to dig in their habitats.

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage? what type? Strip smart material type
What is the temperature in the warm part of the cage? 79-84F under the warm hide? 91F in the coolest part? 75F

]What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (UTH, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, hot rock, other): UTH and CHE
Are you using a thermostat? Yes, on both. UTH set to 91F, CHE set to just under 84F
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Humid hide
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much? Yes CHE and light switched off (warm side drops to 77F ish)

Your ground temperature right under the warm dry hide should be from 88-93 F.

Maybe the thermostat is inaccurate and your temperatures are not as set? It is always important to verify the thermostat's settings with a separate reliable thermometer. You mention having a "strip smart material type". Is that a LCD (liquid crystal display) thermometer?

How about getting a good digital thermometer with a probe to recheck the temps and then get back with us?

 

[mecoat]

mecoat ~

Are you willing to replace the corn cob pellets with paper towels for a couple weeks to see whether doing so makes a difference? Just exploring the possibilities.

Some leos live out long healthy lives without being able to dig in their habitats.


Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage? what type? Strip smart material type
What is the temperature in the warm part of the cage? 79-84F under the warm hide? 91F in the coolest part? 75F

]What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (UTH, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, hot rock, other): UTH and CHE
Are you using a thermostat? Yes, on both. UTH set to 91F, CHE set to just under 84F
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time? Humid hide
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much? Yes CHE and light switched off (warm side drops to 77F ish)
Your ground temperature right under the warm dry hide should be from 88-93 F.

Maybe the thermostat is inaccurate and your temperatures are not as set? It is always important to verify the thermostat's settings with a separate reliable thermometer. You mention having a "strip smart material type". Is that a LCD (liquid crystal display) thermometer?

How about getting a good digital thermometer with a probe to recheck the temps and then get back with us?

For some reason it won't let me quote you Elizabeth, so I've copied and made it italics to try to differentiate my answer.

I did have paper towels in intially when I got him, but the crickets got underneath, and he couldn't get to them to eat them. Also, sometimes they would move underneath him if he dived for a cricket. How do you suggest I get around these issues? I've heard you shouldn't use sellotape inside the viv.

The ground temp inside the warm dry hide is 91F, which is within the range you've given. I'm not sure why you're asking about this.

I've checked the temperatures and they are accurate. I think LCD would probably also describe the strip thermometer. I also have a digital with probe, and they give the same reading, just the strip gives it quicker, but without decimal points.

This is the strip I have : EXO TERRA LIQUID CRYSTAL THERMOMETER HORIZONTAL REPTILE STRIP TERRARIUM PT-2455 | eBay

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

For some reason it won't let me quote you Elizabeth, so I've copied and made it italics to try to differentiate my answer.

I did have paper towels in intially when I got him, but the crickets got underneath, and he couldn't get to them to eat them. Also, sometimes they would move underneath him if he dived for a cricket. How do you suggest I get around these issues? I've heard you shouldn't use sellotape inside the viv.

The ground temp inside the warm dry hide is 91F, which is within the range you've given. I'm not sure why you're asking about this.

I've checked the temperatures and they are accurate. I think LCD would probably also describe the strip thermometer. I also have a digital with probe, and they give the same reading, just the strip gives it quicker, but without decimal points.

This is the strip I have : EXO TERRA LIQUID CRYSTAL THERMOMETER HORIZONTAL REPTILE STRIP TERRARIUM PT-2455 | eBay

GU recently got an upgrade. Don't know whether that is one of the bugs. Another way to quote is to highlight the area you wish to quote, then Reply to Post, find the quote button to the far right of the buttons above each post as one types. Click the button first in your reply post, then paste your highlighted text between the quote BB (?).

Yes, that's the strip I'm talking about. Glad you've verified the temps with other sources. Sounds as if your temps are still good.

Are you currently tossing the crickets in right on top of the corn cob pellets?

One way might be to use a feeding dish, but I have found that even with 8 ounce glass cups with vertical sides some crickets manage to escape.

I suppose you could weight down the paper towels with medium size stones??? For a tank the size of yours lining it with porcelain or ceramic tiles probably would not cost more than $20 USD (sorry).

Is the humid hide more secure/protected than the warm dry hide?

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

What about switching the blue humid hide with the warm dry hide? Be sure to keep the blue humid hide humid? See whether Daff still prefers the blue hide even when you move it.

 

[mecoat]

GU recently got an upgrade. Don't know whether that is one of the bugs. Another way to quote is to highlight the area you wish to quote, then Reply to Post, find the quote button to the far right of the buttons above each post as one types. Click the button first in your reply post, then paste your highlighted text between the quote BB (?).

Yes, that's the strip I'm talking about. Glad you've verified the temps with other sources. Sounds as if your temps are still good.

Are you currently tossing the crickets in right on top of the corn cob pellets?

One way might be to use a feeding dish, but I have found that even with 8 ounce glass cups with vertical sides some crickets manage to escape.

I suppose you could weight down the paper towels with medium size stones??? For a tank the size of yours lining it with porcelain or ceramic tiles probably would not cost more than $20 USD (sorry).

Is the humid hide more secure/protected than the warm dry hide?

What about switching the blue humid hide with the warm dry hide? Be sure to keep the blue humid hide humid? See whether Daff still prefers the blue hide even when you move it.

I think it may have been the ancient IE i'm using at work. Shut down and restart, and now I can multiquote even (I hope).

The crickets are free running for Daff to hunt. He's a very proficient hunter - stalk, strike, gulp, gone.

I'm a little reluctant to put the crickets in a feeder dish, as I've heard that if leos don't/can't hunt they can get obese, plus he may get out of practice.

The problem with tiles/slate is sealing them - they are not sealed all around in the UK, and I'm struggling to get a suitable sealant. I don't want them breeding bad stuff for Daff.

I could try cutting kitchen paper to fit the dry hide, then take everything out of the dry hide, just have the paper underneath. Don't know how well it will stay though - the hide is a little wonky due to the themostat porbe going in under the edge, which is not a problem with the corn cob, they just fill in the hole, but it might be with paper. Do you think it's worth trying? I had the edges weighted before, but the sneaky crickets still got in under in between the weights - I don't have enough to make a completely solid barrier around the whole viv.

The previous humid hide was less secure than the current one, and he was in that before - the blue one is new, only about 1 week. I put it in because I was knew he didn't really like that type of hide (I had some dry ones that he never used like it), so I was going to replace it when I could, got replaced last weekend, but he was already spenging all day in the humid hide before I switched. I did try moving the humid hide with the old Vitalite one, and he still stayed in the humid hide.

Until the last couple of weeks, Daff has always been very happy (as far as I can tell) in the current warm dry hide, which is why I'm worrying.

I have to confess switching the two hides I haven't tried, but he wont get belly heat in the dry warm hide if I switch them. That's worse, isn't it? The UTH does not go under the glass, except for a very small edge (partly because I am worried about it overheating without ventilation, and partly because it isn't big enough).

Thanks for your suggestions so far. I'm sorry if it sound's like I'm picking holes in your suggestions. It's not because I don't want to do them, it's becuase I have a strong tendancy to overthink things through, and try to find all problems with anything I start before I start it so I can fix them as I go because thay have already been thought about and solved, at least theoretically. Not something I can fix about myself.

Everything would be so much easier if Daff could talk and tell me what he needs changing.

 

[mecoat]

OK, so I got home, Daff was still in the humid hide, but the temps were quite low (due to no CHE), so I've turned it back on.

I think I've come up with a temporary solution to see if it's the corn cob pellets putting him off the warm dry hide - kitchen paper under the hide on top of the UTH, but with the pellets weighting down all edges and filling in the edge of the hide (from outside) to fill the gap caused by the thermostat.

What do you think?

I can't swap the positions, because then he'd get no belly heat in the warm dry hide. Which is worse - no belly heat in warm dry hide, or spending all day in the humid hide?

Thanks for your views and ideas.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

How have your tank changes gone?

I have no experience using UTHs inside a wooden cage. My only experience is using them on the base of a tank on the underneath side of the glass WITH proper ventilation! What size is your current UTH in relation to the size of Daff's tank?

The problem with tiles/slate is sealing them - they are not sealed all around in the UK, and I'm struggling to get a suitable sealant. I don't want them breeding bad stuff for Daff.

Standard thickness porcelain or ceramic tiles usually come sealed on the top for bathroom and kitchen installation. No real need to seal them around the edges. They would be fine as a substrate for Daff.

In the USA food-grade tile sealants ARE available!

I have to confess switching the two hides I haven't tried, but he wont get belly heat in the dry warm hide if I switch them. That's worse, isn't it? The UTH does not go under the glass, except for a very small edge (partly because I am worried about it overheating without ventilation, and partly because it isn't big enough).

Sounds like it would be great if you get a larger UTH, one big enough so that you will be able to place the warm moist hide as well as the warm dry hide on top of it to give Daff his choice. Actually would be good if your new UTH occupies 1/3 the length of your tank and just about as wide.

Everything would be so much easier if Daff could talk and tell me what he needs changing.

Well, you can continue to observe :scratchhead:. Then you'll be able to tell us Daff's choices.

 

[mecoat]

How have your tank changes gone?

What size is your current UTH in relation to the size of Daff's tank?



Standard thickness porcelain or ceramic tiles usually come sealed on the top for bathroom and kitchen installation. No real need to seal them around the edges. They would be fine as a substrate for Daff.

In the USA food-grade tile sealants ARE available!



Does your cage have a wood or melamine base?

Sounds like it would be great if you get a larger UTH, one big enough so that you will be able to place the warm moist hide as well as the warm dry hide on top of it to give Daff his choice. Actually would be good if your new UTH occupies 1/3 the length of your tank and just about as wide.



Well, you can continue to observe :scratchhead:. Then you'll be able to tell us Daff's choices.

He's still spending a lot of time in the humid hide - in fact he's in there now.
It's a square UTH about a third the length, but not full width. That's on of the reasons the CHE is offset - so the whole end is warm. The glass is on the other side, so if the UTH was full width it would not have a vent space under the glass.

I'm sure food grade sealants are available in the UK too, but I'm struggling to find one. All the local tile shops (even the ones that sell unsealed tiles too) look at me like I'm mad when I ask for a food-grade sealant. Bacteria are so small they would be able to get into the gaps between the tiles and breed - that's why I'd want to seal them.

He was unimpressed with the warm hide with no corn cob. When he was active overnight, he basically dug the corn cob back to where he thinks it belongs - inside.