Juvy Leo Lethargic, Not Eating - Please help!

[Augray]

It's me again, and Boe seems to be sick again. He (I just call him a "he", I don't know yet ) hasn't eaten for about 5-6 days. Boe is a juvy leopard, about 5 in. long, I've had him for 4 months but I don't know how old he is. Quite young. He was really lethargic several days ago, he wouldn't even open his eyes unless something touched him, but he seems to be getting better in that respect - he'll stand up and walk around a bit for several minutes, but then will go lie back down. He's having slight diarrhea too. He lives in a 10 gal. tank on paper towel substrate with a UTH (Repti heat Cable) that keeps the warm side around 85 degrees F. He has three hides, one moist. he always has fresh water and small mealworms as food, although he doesn't like them much so I usually feed pinhead crickets. He has a bottlecap full of calcium supplement available. He did shed a couple days recently, but I don't think that accounts for such lethargy and anorexia... I could surely be wrong though, I'm a total newb with leos. :/ As Boe is usually quite active and eats heartily, I can't help but thing something might be seriously wrong... Does anyone know what might be wrong with him? Thanks for looking

 

[Aimless]

can you post a clear photo? preferably, of a close-up of his face, and then also one of his whole body?

also, we need more details about your care. what/how often do you supplement? please also be very specific about temperatures in different parts of his cage, and tell us how you're measuring?

and...if this is a bit of an ongoing concern and he's really not seeming to do well, I think your best bet overall is to take him into a vet. it's possible viral or parasitic infection is causing his problems.

 

[Augray]

Update: He just ate a cricket and is up and about after more, still seeming tired but not nearly as bad.

I use a Reptocal supplement to dust the mealworms, is it possible I'm using it too much/too often? To measure the temps I'm using a dial thermometer that I got secondhand, (it seems to be fairly accurate though) and a surface temp probe from PetSmart. The warm side air currently reads 87 degrees. The floor is warmer though, about 95. Is that too hot?

The thing is that he'll be doing fantastic for weeks on end, then stop eating. It never lasts more than a week though. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong...

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Update: He just ate a cricket and is up and about after more, still seeming tired but not nearly as bad.

I use a Reptocal supplement to dust the mealworms, is it possible I'm using it too much/too often? To measure the temps I'm using a dial thermometer that I got secondhand, (it seems to be fairly accurate though) and a surface temp probe from PetSmart. The warm side air currently reads 87 degrees. The floor is warmer though, about 95. Is that too hot?

The thing is that he'll be doing fantastic for weeks on end, then stop eating. It never lasts more than a week though. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong...

Welcome to Geckos Unlimited!

Some questions:
What type and brand of calcium carbonate are you keeping in the tank?
What is in your Reptocal supplement? Does it contain vitamin D3? How often are you dusting?

Please share a picture of Boe and of his habitat.

A 10 gallon tank is really too small for a lifelong leo habitat. 30 x 12 x 12 inches is strongly recommended! There is a $1 per gallon sale going on at PetCo right now till April 24th or 27th. That is an in-store sale only.

Best thing you can do is to copy and paste this Health Questionnaire right into this thread: Leopard Geckos | Health & Diseases. Fill it out as completely as you can.

Let me know whether you have any difficulty doing that.

Why I request this is that all husbandry is connected.

Temperatures for all leos regardless of size:
88-93 F (31-34 C) ground temp at warm end inside the warm dry hide
no greater than 85 F (29.5 C) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the warm end
no greater than 75 F (24.5) air temp - 4 inches above ground on the cool end

Leave the UTH on 24/7. Can turn off overhead heating at night.

 

[Augray]

General Information
Species of lizard: Eublepharis macularius (Leopard Gecko)
Gecko's name: Rochambeau (Boe for short)
Morph: unknown... yet
Gender: unknown yet
Age: <1 yr
Weight: unknown
Total length: ~4"
Length of your reptile when you first acquired it: ~4"
Source (pet store, breeder, previous owner): PetSmart
Captive bred or wild caught: Captive bred

Vivarium
Enclosure dimensions (length x width x heighth): length 20", width 12", height 12"
Cage (type, size): Glass sides, clear, metal screen removable lid
Substrate provided: paper towels
Types of hiding places provided: half-log, upside down sour cream container w/ door and paper towels inside (moist hide), artificial stone cave
Is there a humidity hide? location?: yes, warm side
Please describe any other furnishings: pottery water dish (unglazed, might that have an effect on him? :/ )
List recent changes in the environment, if any: added rock cave a couple weeks ago, switched dry hide for moist one of same size and shape Got new, longer tank

Lighting
Artificial lighting: none (I read that a UTH was better than heat lamps and leos preferred dim environments?)
Incandescent (“screw-in” bulbs): wattage(s):
Fluorescent (tube bulbs):
Access to ambient daylight from a distant window: yep

Heating
Do you have a thermometer(s) in the cage?: yes, 2
What type and brand of thermometer (digital with probe, temperature gun, LCD strip, analog (circle), combo digital thermometer/hygrometer, stainless steel aquarim type, other): 1 analog, 1 digital w/probe
What is the ground temperature right on the substrate under the warm dry hide: 97 F
What is the air temperature on the warm end about 4 inches up from the ground: 87 F
What is the air temperature on the cool end about 4 inches up from the ground: 80 F
What device(s) are used to maintain the temperature (Under Tank Heater, heat light, ceramic heat emitter, Flexwatt heat tape, hot rock, other): Under-tank Repti heat cable (ZooMed)
Ventilation space for your UTH by elevating the tank above the shelf (some UTHs come with sticky feet for the tank corners): Yes
Are you using a thermostat(s)?: No
Which hide does she/he spend most of her time?: Moist hide on the warm side
Is the temperature decreased at night? by how much?: Yes, not much, about 3 degrees

Humidity
Is the humidity measured?: No
Humidity range:

Diet
Insects and worms, list type: pinhead crickets, small mealworms
Regular diet fed to the insects and worms: Zilla insect & cricket gutload, water in cotton balls/potato slices
Are the insects and worms formally “gutloaded” 1-2 days prior to feeding off to your gecko? If so with?: Yes, they are fed Zilla gutload
How often do you feed your gecko?: Every night
Please list any supplements (with brand names) used. How are they given and how often?: Tetrafauna Reptocal with calcium and D3; I use it to dust the mealworms, which I feed him from a small dish. The mealworms are always available.
What calcium brand are you using? with D3, without or both?: same as above
Is the calcium in the tank with D3 or without?: with
Multivitamins (include brand name)?: none, I need to get some -_-
Please list any recent additions/changes in the diet: none

General Health
If your gecko is sick, please describe the signs and how long your gecko has been showing these signs: about 6 days
Is your gecko’s general activity level normal, decreased, or increased?: decreased
Is your gecko’s appetite normal, decreased, or increased?: decreased
Have you noticed any of the following?
Weight (loss or gain): None
Discharge from the eyes or nose: None
Increased breathing rate or effort: None
Change in the droppings: slight diarrhea
Urates
---white or yellowish: white
---size of urates as compared to size of feces: usual
Abnormal skin color or shedding: He seems a tiny bit pale but that might just be me; he does have a leftover piece of skin on one of his toes that I have been trying to get off
Parasites on the skin or in the feces: None
Weakness: slight

Previous problems and/or illnesses: He has had the same symptoms before (except without the lethargy), always recovered, goes for weeks–a month in between bouts

Other Critters in Same Cage or in Household 1 cat, 1 dog, fish downstairs, at & dog rarely come in the same room as Boe
List other animals that are kept in the same cage: None
Recent acquisitions (new pets within the past 6 months): None
Are any of your other pets ill? No

 

[Augray]

This is Boe right now, he wasn't willing to come out of his hide. I'll try to get a better pic tonight when i feed him.

Boe a couple weeks ago before he was sick.

His tank. I've taped down the paper towels to keep the crickets from getting underneath. (Bleh, the glass looks filthy )

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Please remove the Reptocal supplement from the tank. Only supplement that goes in a tank 24/7 is a very small bottlecap of pure calcium carbonate. Anything else can cause an overdose.

Tetrafauna's Reptocal with D3 should only be lightly dusted onto the prey 2-3x per week, not at every feeding. Get an all-purpose reptile vitamin instead, such as Zoo Med's Reptivite with D3/A acetate.

Crickets are a much better staple than mealworms are. Dietary variety is important.

97 F is too warm for the warm dry hide and 80 F is too warm for the cool end. Analog thermometers are often inaccurate.

The purpose of three hides is to establish secure areas in three different temperature locations within the tank. However, your leo's tank is much too small to do that at all. This may be why your leo is not doing well.

Even a 10 gallon tank (20 x 10 x 12) is too small. Both an UTH (esp for belly heat) and a overhead heat source to provide warm air, is important for leos.

For other important details including temperature please check out post #4 right on this thread.

Have you had a chance to read the Leo Caresheet linked in my signature? Best to check that out too and then get back with us for the good of your leo.

Diarrhea is never "normal". Please have his feces tested for parasites and bacterial infection. Fecal collection procedures follow in the next post.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

#2---Fecal Sample Collection Procedure
Just phoned my exotics vet for his recommendation:

1. Place a piece of plastic where your leo usually poops. If your gecko poops somewhere else, take the poop to the vet anyway. Some poop is better than no poop! (Thanks to TheOneBlueGecko - 25 July 2011)

2. As soon as your gecko has passed some poop and urates but without physically touching the sample, place the feces and urates directly into a plastic ziploc bag. (Do NOT use dampened paper towels as I have previously recommended because the paper towels might absorb some of the feces necessary for a proper culture.)

3. Refrigerate this sample...unless you are taking the sample to your vet immediately. Do NOT freeze it.

4. Take this fecal sample to your vet within 24 hours of collecting...the sooner the better!


[There are two types of fecals: direct smear and float tests. For reptiles, both tests should be run. Thanks to BonnieLorraine -- 2 January 2012]

 

[Augray]

Please remove the Reptocal supplement from the tank. Only supplement that goes in a tank 24/7 is a very small bottlecap of pure calcium carbonate. Anything else can cause an overdose.

All right, I will do that

Tetrafauna's Reptocal with D3 should only be lightly dusted onto the prey 2-3x per week, not at every feeding. Get an all-purpose reptile vitamin instead, such as Zoo Med's Reptivite with D3/A acetate.

Crickets are a much better staple than mealworms are. Dietary variety is important.

I do mostly use crickets, he doesn't eat the mealworms often

97 F is too warm for the warm dry hide and 80 F is too warm for the cool end. Analog thermometers are often inaccurate.



The purpose of three hides is to establish secure areas in three different temperature locations within the tank. However, your leo's tank is much too small to do that at all. This may be why your leo is not doing well.

Even a 10 gallon tank (20 x 10 x 12) is too small. Both an UTH (esp for belly heat) and a overhead heat source to provide warm air, is important for leos.

For other important details including temperature please check out post #4 right on this thread.

Have you had a chance to read the Leo Caresheet linked in my signature? Best to check that out too and then get back with us for the good of your leo.

Diarrhea is never "normal". Please have his feces tested for parasites and bacterial infection? Fecal collection procedures follow in the next post.

Thank you so much, I'll try to fix those things. For me, taking him to a vet is sort of a last resort (I know it shouldn't be) but we can't really afford a visit right now, and he seems to be improving - I'll try to get him a bigger tank. Thank you again! c:

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Thank you so much, I'll try to fix those things. For me, taking him to a vet is sort of a last resort (I know it shouldn't be) but we can't really afford a visit right now, and he seems to be improving - I'll try to get him a bigger tank. Thank you again! c:

You are quite welcome .

A bigger cage asap is a must. Otherwise whatever you do will be impacted by an inadequate temperature gradient from warm to cool.

 

[Augray]

You are quite welcome .

A bigger cage asap is a must. Otherwise whatever you do will be impacted by an inadequate temperature gradient from warm to cool.

Okay, I am on track to getting him a bigger one. Quick question, are glass fish tanks all right to use as terrariums, as long as they have screen lids? Just wondering if they were the same basic thing.

Also Update: Boe pooped normally this morning, yay!

 

[Augray]

Update Again: Last night he was running around and crawling on my arms like usual, and he seems much better. I don't know... Maybe all this was related to shedding? I have lowered temps several degrees, it's around 89 now.

 

[cricket4u]

Update Again: Last night he was running around and crawling on my arms like usual, and he seems much better. I don't know... Maybe all this was related to shedding? I have lowered temps several degrees, it's around 89 now.

Shedding will not cause all the issues you have mentioned or cause his body condition to look as it does in the picture. Were you able to remove the shed from his toe?

Boe pooped normally this morning, yay!
This means that what you called diarrhea actually was not. Maybe sharing a picture of his next bowel movement would be a good idea. I noticed you mentioned the picture was taken a couple of weeks before he was sick. If he looks in worse condition now, I'd be concerned. Can you take a photo of him now?

 

[Augray]

Yes, here is a photo of him from tonight. His legs are wet because I was giving him a lukewarm soak to try and get the shed off of his toe.

He doesn't look much different.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

Okay, I am on track to getting him a bigger one. Quick question, are glass fish tanks all right to use as terrariums, as long as they have screen lids? Just wondering if they were the same basic thing.

Also Update: Boe pooped normally this morning, yay!

Glass fish tanks with screen lids are fine. Recommend getting a tank 30 x 12 x 12 inches high for ease of heating. Without a custom background, leos don't climb much.

 

[Augray]

Oh good. I have gotten him a tank that's about twice as long as the one he's got now, just need to set it up and get the heating going. I've gotten a multivitamin too, so we'll see how he does...

 

[cricket4u]

I'm not expecting a huge tail at his young age, however his tail is too thin for his body. I know your moving him to a larger enclosure which is great. I just wanted to remind you to make sure you put your heating devices on a thermostat.

 

[Augray]

Update: I've moved him to the new tank, and fed him - he ate at least seven pinheads! Dusted with multivitamin too. So relieved! Still got to wait and see if he keeps improving, but wow, hallelujah.

 

[Elizabeth Freer]

The Hydrofarm MTPRTC which can be ordered from Amazon for about $35 is a good thermostat. Has a digital readout and a small metal probe. Not only will this provide more constant temperatures for your leo, it will safeguard your home from potential fires from overheating.

 

[Augray]

UPdate: Okay... the day before yesterday he threw up the crickets he had eaten, mostly digested. So I thought maybe it was just from eating so much after not eating for a long time, so I cleaned it up and that night I only fed him four pinheads. This morning he has thrown up again. I'm starting to think he has parasites or something... Any idea what in the world is going on??